DB Cooper – Cooperites celebrate the 47th Anniversary of the skyjacking with conference

By Bruce A. Smith

The 47th Anniversary of the DB Cooper skyjacking was celebrated with a gathering of experts and aficionados to discuss the details of the case, and ponder new evidence and suspects.

On November 24, 1971, DB Cooper hijacked a Northwest Orient 727 enroute to Seattle from Portland, and after he jumped from the aft stairs with $200,000 in twenties tethered to his waist, nothing has ever been discovered – neither his identity, fate, or any of his gear or booty. However, $6,200 of ransom money was found on a Columbia River beach in 1980, but that discovery also defies explanation. DB Cooper’s daring-do has been feted every since, and this anniversary was no exception. The DB Cooper heist, known to law enforcement as NORJAK, remains the only unsolved skyjacking in American history. Nevertheless, the FBI officially closed the case in 2016.

Approximately 100 people gathered Saturday, November 2018 at the Edgewater Country Club in Portland, Oregon to share opinions, sell books and DVDs on the case, and network with each other. It was the third such gathering in recent memory, with a major conference in Portland in 2011, and a smaller affair in Tacoma at the Washington State Historical Museum in 2013.

The first half of this year’s conference featured experts in the case illustrating the fundamentals of the case, and revealing new understandings of this iconic mystery.

First to speak was parachute expert, Mark Metzler, known in DB Cooper chat rooms as “377.” Metzler described in detail the differences in construction between military and civilian parachutes, claiming that skydivers using sport chutes such as the Pioneer Steinthal that was found unused on Cooper’s plane when it landed for refueling in Reno, Nevada, must deploy at speeds below 150 mph. However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds. Cooper’s plane, Flight 305 was traveling closer to 200 mph when Cooper jumped, and thus the military chute that might have been aboard, such as a NB-6 or NB-8 – both emergency parachutes for navy fliers – would have been adequate. Metzler said that the NB-8 would most likely contain a 28-foot C-9 parachute, whereas the NB-6 would contain a 26-foot conical chute.

But the exact nature of the parachute DB Cooper used is shrouded in mystery. The FBI’s technical expert on parachutes, Earl Cossey, says Cooper had a NB-6 or NB-8. However, Norman Hayden, whom FBI documents reveal delivered these back chutes to NWO and owned them, says he only gave civilian Pioneer rigs containing Steinthals. FBI documents and statements by case agents vary greatly on this subject and Cooper World reels, trying to resolve this dilemma. Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.

Next up was yours truly, talking about the money find at Tina Bar in 1980. I discussed three apparent money finds at this Columbia River beach, about fifteen miles downstream from where the 2018 Conference was held.

The first money find was the iconic discovery of three bundles of twenties by Brian Ingram, the 8-year old kid smoothing a sandy stretch of strand for his family to roast hot dogs. On Sunday, February 10, 1980, his fingers scraped across the top of the bundles and then he dug them out. They were all in severely weathered condition, compressed, and missing the corners and edges. Subsequent examination of the serial numbers revealed that these bills were from the Cooper ransom, and this discovery remains the only incontrovertible piece of evidence in NORJAK.

The second money find occurred three days later when FBI agents from the Portland Division, under the command of SA Ralph Himmelsbach, descended on the beach and started digging in the sand where Brian had found his three bundles. Himmelsbach says his team found shards of money in the original discovery area down to a depth of three feet.

The Public Information Officer on the scene, Dorwin Schroeder, has told many researchers that they found pieces of money stretching over an area 20-feet in all directions from the spot where Brian found his twenties. Schroeder also says that the shards were recovered from depths of 3-4 feet, and some were as big as 2-3 inches across. A KATU-TV video shows these larger pieces of ransom money and their placement into Plasticine evidence envelopes. However, none of these envelopes are in evidence in Seattle, and as far as is known have never been seen in public. The only money pieces in FBI possession that have been witnessed, such as by the Citizen Sleuth Team in 2009 and 2011, are hundreds of itsy-bitsy pieces that look more like dust particles than remnants of a twenty-dollar bill.

Himmelsbach says that all the money recovered at T-Bar went to Seattle, but he retired from the Bureau two weeks after the money find, and his subsequent investigations of the money are unknown. But his PIO, SA Schroeder, took over his skyjacking duties at the Portland FBI office, and he told this reporter that he assumed a passive perspective on the case, only responding to clues brought into the FBI by the public. Thus, it is understood that after the February money find at T-Bar, the rest of the Columbia River river bank was never searched for more money or evidence – not even Cooper’s body.

Into that breach DB Cooper researcher Galen Cook began contacting beach owners near Tina Bar and talked to local fishermen. Cook says that he found two men who were teenagers in 1980, and they say that they fished the river regularly in the T-Bar area. They claim that in January 1980 – one month before the Brian Ingram find – they found dozens of torn corners of twenty-dollar bills laying in the sand about 100 feet downstream from Brian’s spot. This third discovery remains uncorroborated, and thus is highly controversial.

The next speaker was Tom Kaye, the head of the Citizen Sleuth Team (CST). Kaye discussed the particles found on the tie reportedly left behind by DB Cooper, in particular the recent discovery of 100,000 rare earth minerals and other exotic or unusual chemical deposits.

First was a history of the initial examination by the CST using their electron microscope. They found hundreds of particles, and most prominent was pure titanium.

In 1971, titanium was not common,” said Kaye, “and was not used in sporting goods as it is today, and was found mostly in aviation applications, such as Boeing’s SST.” But the SST uses titanium alloys, so the CST explored the titanium mining and extraction process to see where pure Ti could be found in quantity and how it might land on a thin, black tie.

Kaye and his CST found that titanium is extracted from “titanium sand” and was selectively removed by two different chemical processes. One, the Kroll Process, uses chlorine and the other, the Hunter Process, uses sodium to “suck out” the titanium from the sand.

However, the CST also found large amounts of mineral salts on the tie, and the sodium process leaves NaCl residues, which is the primary component of salt. Surprisingly, the sodium process is only used in one manufacturing plant, RMI, which is located in Illinois. Kaye and the CST thought that RMI might be the site where DB Cooper worked long enough as an engineer or manager to adsorb titanium and salt on his tie, but officials at RMI said they had no employees resembling the DB Cooper sketch working in the pre-skyjacking period.

Seemingly at a dead end, the tie investigation took a dramatic turn in 2015 when the Travel Channel interviewed Tom Kay for an Expedition Unknown episode on DB Cooper. During the resulting conversations, the host of the show, Josh Gates, decided to contribute the monies to examine the tie at a state-of-the art laboratory, the McCrone Institute in Illinois.

The McCrone labs used a high-end ASPEX 3025 SEM electron microscope to examine the tie particles. Kaye says they found additional Antimony, Cerium, Cerium Lanthanum, and other phosphors, and Barium, plus cutting tool and match-head residues, and elements of gold and platinum, presumably from the tie clip of other jewelry use with the tie. Also, the NaCl was an industrial type of salt, and not the kind of table salt found on French Fries. In addition, they also found a substance called “frit,” which is a powder used to fuse glasses together, and shards of stainless steel, but not regular steel.

Taken in sum, Kaye offered this analysis:

The phosphors, ceriums and antimony are indicative of cathode ray tube manufacturing. The cutting tool residues also suggest a manufacturing environment, as does the stainless steel and frit. Kaye said that the primary location for these kinds of elements would be the Tektronix plant in Portland, which was the leading manufacturer of oscilloscopes in the country in 1971. Lastly, the match head residues indicate a heavy smoker, and the tie itself suggests a manager or engineer.

This is the hottest lead in Cooper World,” Kaye pronounced.

As for the afternoon, the bulk of the time was dedicated to a rendition of suspects by their leading advocates. Peter Rouse, a resident of Astoria, Oregon, spoke about the connection between Norman DeWinter and Robert Rackstraw. Although highly personalized – Rouse talked about his personal involvement with DeWinter – he offered no new information on Rackstraw as DB Cooper.

But many Rackstraw advocates were in attendance, including Russ and Kristy Cooper, the residents of Portland who informed Tom Colbert of the possible DBC burial sites in LaConner, WA where the money and parachutes might be found. The Coopers and other individuals from that retrieval effort, such as Jim Erwin, were in the audience and spoke informally during the conference.

Bradley Collins, who has written a book claiming his father was DB Cooper, was also in attendance, but did not speak publicly. Nevertheless, he was active in smaller groupings.

Next on stage was Vern Jones, the publisher of the Walter Reca story, penned by Carl Laurin. Jones offered a detailed and authoritative description of the Reca saga. Jones also established a wonderful bonhomie with the audience and other DBC experts by saying, “I know that much of what I am going to tell you is going to rub you the wrong way, such as the flight path. I acknowledge that, and we want to be transparent about it, but it is the Walter Reca story as told by Carl Laurin. It’s what we’ve got.”

In essence, Walter Reca was a rough fellow and part-time thief who was an expert skydiver. In 1971 he decided that it was “Better to be Dead than Poor,” and stole NWO Flight 305. The Reca story has him landing in Cle Elum, WA, due east of Seattle and a long ways from the Victor-23 air corridor that DB Cooper was supposedly following south of Sea-Tac airport.

Later, Reca was absolved of this crime and recruited into a contract position for an unnamed intelligence agency of the United States Government. After a period of training where his “head was sculpted” Reca performed off-the-books operations, including assassinations, in 34 countries worldwide. Jones’ presentation of Reca’s passports was fascinating, with stamps and official certifications overflowing from the pages in dozens of languages.

Jones’ presentation was highly professional and well-received, even if widely doubted.

Lastly, Conference host and organizer, Eric Ulis, delivered his up-to-date analysis of Sheridan Peterson as the leading suspect for DB Cooper. New revelations included the secret bank account Peterson had in Singapore, and the fact that his second wife – with whom he lived in Nepal and was his primary alibi – was not dead as he had reported to the FBI, but rather, was still alive according to Peterson family members that Ulis has contacted in the past few weeks.

Peterson, 92, is living in central California. His “lightly fictionalized” account of the Vietnam War, An Idiot’s Frightful Laughter, has recently been published by the Cooperite known as “Snowmman” and was available for viewing at the Conference. It is for sale at Lulu.com, with all proceeds going to Peterson. Ulis and others feel that many of the elements of the DB Cooper skyjacking are confirmed or revealed in Peterson’s book, such as descriptions of harsh parachute jumps. Regardless, it is a searing war account and worthy of a read.

Following the Conference many attendees and presenters flocked to the Victor-23 pub in nearby Vancouver. The wateringhole is chummy craft brewery, with a wall mural depicting a Northwest Orient 727 discharging its passengers, and the good vibes of the Conference continued.

In fact, most of the presenters met there before the Conference. Mark Metzler, Eric Ulis, Tom Kaye and yours truly arrived there early in Friday evening, and met Dirk Wierenga and Dave S, who comprised the video crew from Principia filming the gathering. Vern Jones and his wife Irene joined us in the course of events. A Pilsner called “Skyjacker blonde” was delicious, as was rumored another Pilsner, the “Schaffner,” named after flight attendant Florence Schaffner, but was sold out. Further, the wall mural of Cooper’s 727 is actually a “200” series and not the 100 that Cooper flew, I was informed. The 200 has an aft fuselage door on the starboard side, which the 100 does not, besides the customary ventral aft stairways.

Both Friday and Saturday evenings numerous locals came by and shared a beer with us and the roomful of Cooperites, including podcasters Darren Schaefer, and his editor “Ben.” “Vince” from Olympia hung with us through the night and videoed many presenters and attendees for later broadcast.

On Saturday, I sat with Ron Bertrand, who runs the NW Escape Experience and features the DB Cooper Escape Room, where someone last summer broke in to rob the place and couldn’t get out and had to call 911 to be arrested and “freed,” so to speak.

Rob is a major DB Cooper figure in Portland. Very passionate and informed.

Clyde Lewis, the host of Portland’s Ground Zero Radio, came to the conference at the end of the afternoon and joined us at V-23. There he regaled us with his numerous encounters with DB Cooper suspect, Wolfgang Gossett, who died a few years ago in Depoe Bay, Oregon. Those two gentlemen were entangled in the extreme, with encounters in Utah, Oregon, talk radio, and personal healings. Lewis even lived two block away from Gossett’s last wife. Clyde should write a book about his personal relationship with “Wolfie,” and about Gossett regardless of the DB Cooper angle. Wolfie and Clyde are just two extraordinary, weird, fascinating guys.

Clyde also told us many stories from his Ground Zero radio show, which is broadcast nationally. His tales of research on the fringe, such as MKULTRA, Area 51, and reverse engineering of UFOs at Hangar 18 at Wright-Paterson were captivating. Many Cooperites loved it, as I did, but not all.

Another conferee at V-23 was Dan Wyatt, who runs the Kiggins Theatre in Portland. Wyatt produced a DB Cooper radio show there on Wednesday evening, which folks at V-23 said was fantastic.

One of the eye-catching dimensions of the conference – and the pub – was that half the folks were Millennials, 30-years and younger. I was impressed. They asked lots of questions, too. One woman named Katie asked questions all day and all evening, too. Took notes, too. First time I ever saw a marbleized notebook in a tavern….

Everyone I talked with thought the conference was a success and they now want an annual gathering. Most also want an “Ariel tavern-style” party to accompany the conference. Bryan Woodruff, son of Dona Elliott, the late owner of the Ariel Tavern and DB Cooper Party Hostess, was in attendance at V-23, and voiced support for these ideas.

One of the hallmarks of the conference, and certainly evenings at the Victor-23 pub, was the lack of animosity – the total opposite of the current bickering on the DB Cooper Forum. Some folks came into the conference in a cautious manner, such as Kristy Cooper and her husband Russ Cooper. When Kristy introduced herself to me, I said, “Ah, I have been tracking you two for a long time!”

“Yes, I know,” Kristy replied, with a slight smile. Nevertheless, we talked about working cooperatively in the future, and that might be a possibility. But their leader, Tom Colbert, needs to give the okay for Kristy and Russ to feel comfortable with that arrangement. But she bought my book, so….

As for next year, Eric Ulis says that he is committed to producing another Conference. He also announced that Mark Metzler made a substantial contribution to this year’s Conference, which was free to the public. Details will follows as plans are developed.

Conference, 2018, Eric, r, Mark, c, BAS, l at V-23

Pictured: Eric Ulis, (r), Mark Metzler, (c), Bruce A. Smith, (l). Picture courtesy of Eric Ulis.

Conference, 2018, Tom Kaye, l, Bradley Collins, r.

Tim Kaye, (l), with Bradley Collins, (r)

Conference, 2018, flgith manual and NB-8

NB-8, top, with 727 flight manual, lower

conference-2018-reserve-chute-727-flight-manual1.jpg

Reserve chute, lower, with flight manual, above

Conference, 2018, Eric giving his introductory talk, distant shot

Eric Ulis giving his introductory remarks at the beginning of the 2018 DB Cooper Conference. Edgewater Columbia Country Club, Portland, OR

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568 Responses to DB Cooper – Cooperites celebrate the 47th Anniversary of the skyjacking with conference

  1. Galen Cook, Attorney at Law says:

    Nice report, Bruce. It may have been a partial error on my part relating the info to you, but the two brothers found only “one” corner of a Cooper twenty, not dozens. I contacted them in about 2013 and they agreed to meet me at Tena’s Bar where they directed me to the exact location.
    Their find was in January 1980 about a month preceeding the Ingram find. The location was about 150 feet downstream of Ingram. They took the $20 corner home to show their parents. The brothers were 9 and 11 years old. They had no idea what they were looking at until AFTER they read about the Ingram find in February. What the young fisherman’s find indicated to me is that (1) there may have been another burial source downstream, and (2) possibly more than three packets involved. Maybe both.
    On another topic, I never met Tom Kaye, however I spent an hour with him on the phone several years ago. I respect his in-depth analysis regarding the tie particles. The only problem from my perspective is that before you can derive the conclusions Tom has provided, you have to first prove that the tie was always owned by Cooper. I believe Cooper purchased his disguise costume at a Goodwill type of store just prior to the hijacking. That would negate any subsequent theory as to Cooper’s workplace or professional status based on types of particles found on the tie.

  2. David & Susie Johnson says:

    Thanks Bruce, for sending me the report of the conference.

    I do hope that I will be able to attend, from the UK, at sometime in the future.

    I still find the initial finding of the notes at TB, to be highly unusual to say the least. I have already given Galen and yourself my comments on the condition of the notes. Although it is difficult to be sure from just looking at photos, but I still think they had been there for a max of two years.

    Greetings to all from the United Kingdom.

    David

  3. shutter45 says:

    However, $6,200 of ransom money was found on a Columbia River beach in 1980?????

    • brucesmith49 says:

      The sum of $6,200 comes from the latest count of the bills and fragments, in particular, the auction house that Brian gave the majority of his bills has uncovered additional bills that had been overlooked initially due to the compression of the bundles.

  4. EU says:

    I really question the $6,200 figure. Remember, this updated figure is being attributed to the auction house and their abilities.

    However, The auction house has examined less than half the total bills–the FBI has 14 bills, the insurance company has “half” of what was left and Brian had the other half. As far as I know the auction house has never seen the insurance company’s portion. Therefore, how do you arrive at a $6,200 figure based up the FBI’s 14 bills and Brian’s portion?

    I believe the total is no greater than $5,800 to $6,000.

    • brucesmith49 says:

      Yes, the best way to characterize the amount of money is to say, “approximately $6,200.” The exact amount is not known. 6K may be the upper limit, but I recall the auction house speculating that the number they thought that was in the T-Bar find was $6, 200 – and thus the amount of bills available for auction potentially. That number would determine the relative value of any individual bill when it goes to auction.

  5. shutter45 says:

    They found new serial numbers, not bills…

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      If they found NEW NUMBERS then they found new pieces of a bill! One sewrial number oper bill. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

  6. brucesmith49 says:

    Ah, that is another element to consider. Please tell us more, Shut.

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      What is wrong with you people? There is only one serial number per bill. If they find a new number never logged before then they are finding pieces of bills those serial numbers are part of! This is common sense!

  7. Terry Battcher says:

    Whether the tie came from a thrift store or not, the fact that it had such a large list of highly specialized particles on it, is very uncanny indeed. The odds of any one particular person getting the sheer number of these same specific particles on their tie, is astronomically rather improbable. Perhaps a research laboratory is a more likely source? Even so, why would so many of these same particles be on that ‘one tie?’ To me, it’s more like this particular evidence was intentionally placed on that tie. Which of these same particles could have been airborne, which would not? At first glance, it’s as though whomever had that tie was a slob…but would a slob have a job in such an area that had all of these same kind of particles? Look at this same puzzle from other angles: Even if it was a research lab source, how could have it have been so sloppy with the samples? How about a foreign enemy agent having sampled these particles by sticking his finger in the samples and then rubbing his of her tie? You’ve got to kick these ideas around, kids!

    In other words, how could one look at this same overall evidence and then fixate only on the particles of pure titanium as being the place to go looking? Such a line of reasoning is very obviously pure bullshit! That tie evidence is a very sophisticated puzzle indeed, especially so when ALL things are carefully considered. Yes, I know about the Tektronix idea, but does that account for ALL of these same particles? I doubt that it does. Maybe so?

    Another bunch of bullshit is to ASSUME that a rather large parachute was deployed at 200 miles per hour in the Cooper caper! That same parachute would pop open almost immediately and render the person wearing it unconscious, at a minimum, but probably kill them eventually. A falling body will speed up to about 80-90 MPH, and that would also represent a very sudden tug in regular use, but there would certainly have been some “give,” with a slower opening of the chute. Compare the analogy of using a tow chain vs a tow strap to pull a vehicle, the chain has no “give,” and as such it is more likely to cause damage to one vehicle or the other, or both. The tow strap has more of a bungee cord characteristic to it. If Cooper died in that jump, the dogs would have picked up the scent…period! To follow this crime properly, you really have to question and examine any and ALL lines reasoning.

    Consider this…once a person has certain ideas in their head for any length of time, those same ideas don’t easily leave them. Most people would readily assume that it’s absurd to consider a linkage between these cases: the California Zodiac killer, Norjak, OCCK and the Ramsey case…. that is until they acquire an open mind and carefully examine the core evidence which shows the linkage, and add to that, that they’ve had time to process the information too. I’m telling you kids…this same UNSUB rigged the evidence to prove that what I’m saying is true, but it took me quite awhile to “process” the information too, in order to get to this point. And, I’ve done so and I’m not looking for fame, I value my privacy too. Again, I do this stuff out of a sense of duty.

    MKULTRA linkage too? Probably so from what I’ve seen.

  8. shutter45 says:

    Terminal velocity of an average jumper would be around 120 mph. the McNally hijacking was much faster than Cooper. he jumped at speeds of 300 mph. he was banged up but survived. he didn’t use a backpack, he used the front chute.

  9. shutter45 says:

    Terry, you overlook a lot of things. the dogs could pickup a scent sure, if they were in the right area. also, nobody knows how Cooper bailed out of the plane. could of pulled on the stairs or did a free fall to terminal. they have a rather large area of possibilities where Cooper jumped and they focused on an area surrounding Ariel. one memo states it’s possible he jumped very close to the Columbia. that’s a rather large area to try and find a scent, chute, or body. it’s about 23 miles from the Columbia to Ariel and then several miles wide. huge area to search.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Shutter45, I think that you’re the one overlooking a lot of things. The FBI’s FOIA files clarify, via two separate sources, that the jump was near Le Center, WA, several miles east of the Columbia river, hence the FBI’s phony search near Ariel, because of the crosswind away from the Columbia river. No one opens the chute on the stairs, not at approx. 200 knots, and survives.( Don’t know where you and you alone get a 300 MPH airspeed from?) Dogs can pick up a scent from several miles away, depending on the wind. That whole area was thoroughly and repeatedly gleaned. Yeah, no chute, Tena bar doesn’t jibe for a location. Bruce keep insisting on $6200 cash, while everyone else says $5800. Everyone at this MB seems to be ignoring several things, like the core four letters, etc. Like the 200 plus special materials on the tie. Like the attache’ case. BTW, the maps clearly show that the Colombia river is not near LeCenter, nor Ariel. Searching Merwin damn was phony and misleading by the FBI brass. Most free fall jumpers stick their limbs out in a free fall, in order to slow their decent to 80-90 MPH. The evidence says that the UNSUB got away. Tena Bar evidence doesn’t jibe. This particular skyjacking was a very sophisticated and well planned operation, he had ALL of his ducks in a row. Whether $6200 or $5800, where’s the bulk of the loot?! Again, the taunting documents show that their author had inside crime scene knowledge, which is more support showing that he survived. The Playboy cutouts are what I’m mainly referring to here. BTW, you think that this rather smart UNSUB individual is gonna hike out of the wilderness in loafers? The core four letters anchor everything in this Cooper caper. I think that the many messages in this operation was what he was after and not the loot.

      • shutter45 says:

        Terry, what scent did the dogs search for?
        nothing in the files give any real indication of a positive location of the jump. they will tell you today “we think, or we believe he jumped (here)”

  10. TC says:

    Bruce making a name for himself. He was the guest on a radio talk show in Spokane, WA, today ….. talking about ….. what else….. DBC.

    • brucesmith49 says:

      Thanks you, TC, for the kudos. Patriot Radio in Spokane. Caleb Collier was the host. I was filling in for Galen who was the original guest, but Galen had to be in court and asked me to cover.

  11. Marty Andrade says:

    Reblogged this on Marty Andrade and commented:
    Detailed report on the DB Cooper Forum last week in Portland:

  12. Terry Battcher says:

    Shutter45, the FBI files show that a Portland based radar station and NWA’s flight data recorder concurred that their data pointed to a jump location just east of the center of Le Center, WA. This is the only area in that part of the world that has large areas of conjoined plowed fields, and it’s right near I5. Do you want me to cite the FBI FOIA file location too?

    I like this thread because it deals with details about the tie. This whole business about a Tektronix inc connection is what caught my interest and brought me here. Yeah, I know, I’m the crazy SOB that links the Ramsey case, but the evidence drives this situation. As a matter of fact, it clarified the evidence that I was seeing on the Ramsey ransom note. I’ll come back to this point, but first this from Bruce’s article:

    The McCrone labs used a high-end ASPEX 3025 SEM electron microscope to examine the tie particles. Kaye says they found additional Antimony, Cerium, Cerium Lanthanum, and other phosphors, and Barium, plus cutting tool and match-head residues, and elements of gold and platinum, presumably from the tie clip of other jewelry use with the tie. Also, the NaCl was an industrial type of salt, and not the kind of table salt found on French Fries. In addition, they also found a substance called “frit,” which is a powder used to fuse glasses together, and shards of stainless steel, but not regular steel.

    Taken in sum, Kaye offered this analysis:

    The phosphors, ceriums and antimony are indicative of cathode ray tube manufacturing. The cutting tool residues also suggest a manufacturing environment, as does the stainless steel and frit. Kaye said that the primary location for these kinds of elements would be the Tektronix plant in Portland, which was the leading manufacturer of oscilloscopes in the country in 1971. Lastly, the match head residues indicate a heavy smoker, and the tie itself suggests a manager or engineer.

    “This is the hottest lead in Cooper World,” Kaye pronounced.”

    I agree, it is by far a very hot lead. On the second page and second line of the Ramsey ransom note, is the crossed out word “delivery”. The three examples of the word “delivery” on the first page are of very key importance, and clearly show intentional murder and threats to John Ramsey. Using my ‘paint’ feature in Windows to isolate the cross-out portion from the word “delivery,” I got the image of an old time boat-tailed speedster. At first this queer little image didn’t make much sense, because it has a image of a figurine lifting the front of the car and an a-frame “jack” stand in place. Then came a few years later the Tektronix hint from Bruce A. Smith on YouTube, and I then recalled that early service manuals for Tektronix oscilloscopes have the drawing of a midget racer in the horizontal sweep amplifier section, to depict the high speed CRT beam retrace function. A midget racer is a boat-tailed speedster, and a person can lift the front of a midget racer by themselves and put it on a “jack’ stand too. Bear in mind that this is only one area of hints linking these two cases. I think that a thorough study of the function of Lanthanum Tantalate alloy particles, is of very key importance to study and understanding of the Cooper caper.

    Would you rather parachute into a ground target in a plowed field near LeCenter, or risk landing randomly in boulders near Ariel and/or risk getting a pine tree up your ass?

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Go read FBI file at 2941, Chapter 13, material as released at FBI VAULT. That one page document will show that a package was delivered by FBI Seattle FO to SFO FO on 12/2/71 which contained info on exact flightpath of 305. No doubt, charting generated by civilian or military radar data.

      • shutter45 says:

        who is debating the flight path?

      • TC says:

        Shutter, do you know the true flight path? If yes, what’s your basis of knowledge? If acquired from others, how do you know that their information is accurate?

      • Terry Battcher says:

        Gypsy23, yes, that sounds about right. The location of the rear door placard find, suggests that the plane was on the accepted flight path, which supports the statement and find that that same pathway was very near LeCenter. BTW, I think the finding of frit on the tie is very interesting indeed.

        I guess that what it’s gonna take, is to show exactly how Cooper acquired his ground target. In the meanwhile consider this: RCA, for one source, sells or has sold business card devices that convert infrared directly into visible red light. To use them, you’d charge them up under a bright light, then test for a flashing pattern coming from an infrared remote control. Infrared controls are the way TV’s and other devices are controlled these days. The infrared or IR receiver, which is a modified photo diode that’s in the TV set, undoubtedly uses special materials related to those found on the Cooper tie. These have a special optical filter in front of them that is somewhat purple in color, which serves to filter or reduced ambient light, which is exactly what Cooper’s wrap-around sunglasses could have done.

        However, Cooper could also have simply done a timed free fall, pulling the rip cord nearer the ground. The city of LeCenter was probably well lit at the time of the day.

  13. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Fkyjack says: FLYJACK says:
    November 26, 2018 at 10:46 am ; There weren’t new bills found.. there were new bill numbers identified.. big difference.

    If new bill numbers are found and numbers are unique to a bill then doesnt that mean new never before counted pieces of a bill were found/identified? Flyjack needs to learn some logic! Ha Ha Ha

    • FLYJACK says:

      Nope. False assumption.

      Not all bills had legible serial numbers. They put together frags to ID serial numbers not new bills.

  14. PARDON ME BUT says:

    I am astounded. Every printed paper bill has a unique serial number, no other printed paper bill has! That is a fact. Serial numbers are unique and used to identify each individual bill. Serial numbers and the printed paper they are on are INSEPARABLE! Like the nose on your head. Most people only have on nose per head!

    But dyslexiacs could get this confused and claim otherwise! Dyslexia is a learning disorder that involves difficulty reading due to problems identifying speech sounds and learning how they relate to letters and words (decoding). Also called reading disability, dyslexia affects areas of the brain that process language. …

    A person with Dyslexi could claim that serial numbers and the paper bills they are on do not go together! And when new serial numbers are found that does not mean new paper bills have been found! People with Dyslexia often get basic logic confused …

    • FLYJACK says:

      In fact, complete bills have two printed serial numbers..

      TBAR bills were not complete, basic logic.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        Dumbass. One serial number per bill. Any discovery of a new previously unseen serial number is a discovery of the paper the damned serial number is printed on! Ie. a new bill. Serial numbers and paper bills go together. What does “TBAR bills were not complete, basic logic.” have to do with this. You keep appealing to BASIC LOGIC but you have none. I guess you are just one more Cooper Vortex Leader – ha ha ha. But you are entertaining in your moronism – keep it coming clown. Ha Ha Ha.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        How stupid will this get!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Your argument would only be valid if all 290 bills were ID’d via their serial numbers, they weren’t. Many bills and fragments were not ID’d. The premise is bogus and the logic is flawed.

        This bill is not ID’d…
        https://historical.ha.com/itm/transportation/aviation/-d-b-cooper-1971-ransom-money-unknown-series-20-federal-reserve-note-certified-and-encapsulated-by-pcgs-currency-with/a/6006-47237.s

        Sounds like Meyer’s nonsense… the Cooper world is full of these ignorant trolls.

        There are two numbers printed on each bill. THE SAME NUMBER. That means two opportunities to ID a single bill.

        This is really really simple, the FBI did not ID 290 serial numbers from the bills and fragments. In fact, they have never shown how they got that 290 number, but there are only two ways. They can count the bills with and without identifiable serial numbers but it wouldn’t be very accurate or they could compare the known serial numbers to Micro list. They claimed it was in the same order. If you could match and ID the top and bottom bills then there would be 100 per packet. Maybe they did it that way.

  15. Gypsy23 says:

    This is starting to sound like the good ol days at the DZ………..

  16. Terry Battcher says:

    PARDON YOUR BUTT..lighten up!

    Reverse engineer the Cooper caper kids…he had his ducks in a row. The crime was a paramilitary type of operation, CIA stuff, it had to have taken a thorough knowledge base, that’s what the many pieces of evidence shows, when taken all together.

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      We now know how stupid this will get.

      Let me guess. Flyjerk has a suspect too! Odds are 100% He fits the profile.

      Can I get bread sticks with this ? Extra cheese?

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        Everyone one please remember: (Flyjack says) There are two numbers printed on each bill. THE SAME NUMBER. That means two opportunities to ID a single bill.

        This has nothing to do with anything but Flyjack throws these things out to confuse and redirect the original question which was at issue. Flyjack has studied Robert M Blevins!

        Watch the peanut vanish under the cup! Good luck.

      • Marla says:

        I dont think FLYJACK and Robert Blevins are on the same flight path. Those two wouldn’t last together for 5 minutes.

  17. Terry Battcher says:

    Well, it would be nice if we can keep the discussion civil. Whether it was $6200 or $5800 isn’t all that big of a deal. It’s whether the forensic evidence shows whether those same bills actually spent time at the T-bar location or somewhere else. They don’t belong at T-bar. Could they have fallen off of the rear stairs and into where the Columbia runs east-west?

    The evidence that the UNSUB jumped near LeCenter, is pretty compelling.

  18. Terry Battcher says:

    I listened to Uncle Bruce’s latest radio show interview on YouTube last night, it was pretty interesting. I’ll review it again.

  19. Terry Battcher says:

    From Uncle Bruce’s article: First to speak was parachute expert, Mark Metzler, known in DB Cooper chat rooms as “377.” Metzler described in detail the differences in construction between military and civilian parachutes, claiming that skydivers using sport chutes such as the Pioneer Steinthal that was found unused on Cooper’s plane when it landed for refueling in Reno, Nevada, must deploy at speeds below 150 mph. However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds. Cooper’s plane, Flight 305 was traveling closer to 200 mph when Cooper jumped, and thus the military chute that might have been aboard, such as a NB-6 or NB-8 – both emergency parachutes for navy fliers – would have been adequate. Metzler said that the NB-8 would most likely contain a 28-foot C-9 parachute, whereas the NB-6 would contain a 26-foot conical chute.

    But the exact nature of the parachute DB Cooper used is shrouded in mystery. The FBI’s technical expert on parachutes, Earl Cossey, says Cooper had a NB-6 or NB-8. However, Norman Hayden, whom FBI documents reveal delivered these back chutes to NWO and owned them, says he only gave civilian Pioneer rigs containing Steinthals. FBI documents and statements by case agents vary greatly on this subject and Cooper World reels, trying to resolve this dilemma. Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.

    ” However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds.”(?) Yeah, but what about the human body, can it handle a sudden stop from much higher speeds? Kind of a bag of mixed information here, I’d say. So again, where would you rather land? In a nice plowed field in your penny loafers, where the cross wind gives you a nice little “step off,” or risk getting a pine tree in suppository form, or break a ankle or leg on some rocks, then have to hike out of the wilderness with or without the loot? That would be kind of dumb in an otherwise very sophisticated and meticulously planned out and executed crime, I’d say! The FBI’s FOIA records are clear, Cooper jumped very near LeCenter, not Ariel. The Ariel location is based on a series of false assumptions.

    “Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.” Yeah, how about that? What are the chances that someone is gonna go out of their way to bump off this one particular guy in his own garage? Where’s the motive? Who have we all noted the presence of in the Cooper community orb, that makes not so thinly veiled death threats in recent times? Hmmm?

  20. FLYJACK says:

    Shutter, when you read this remove my account and all my posts from your forum. I have had it with the disrespect and ignorance there, long overdue… There is no critical discussion there, NONE.

    • MNastt says:

      FLYJACK: reconsider this request. Cooper case causes lots of hard feelings because of some very strong personalities. Look at Blevins. He would never ask to be removed, but removed he was. Everyone wanted his ass gone. So think about it again.
      Is a disagreement with one or two individuals worth your departure, when no one else has complained about you?

  21. brucesmith49 says:

    Yeah, Fly, I’ll miss you. Please stick around.

    • FLYJACK says:

      I’ll stick around just not on that forum, Shutter has now blocked my IP.. but somebody tell him I already posted “NO ACCENT” per FBI… clearly he doesn’t read my comments as I suspected. Maybe he can find it before he deletes my account and posts..

      It is the environment that I have lost all respect for. Closed minded, adversarial, combative, abusive and in some cases gross ignorance/bad logic. IMO, it should be supportive, respectful, open minded, compassionate and collaborative. That doesn’t mean you have to agree but I see no benefit in participating in that current environment. It is toxic for intellectual exploration and critical thinking.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        And he cried “wee wee wee wee all the way home” …. after insulting multiple people over years then finally being given time off, then finally tangling with the Mod! Multiple people turns thumbs down on his suspect and some of his crazy ideas … so now its their fault and Shutter is running an unfair forum which he can;t abide? Hey Bozo – you want a free egg on your beer too? You want worshipers? You want apologies? Bruce will give you sympathy but he wont be able to engineer a political revolution for you! This is fricking hilarious! Maybe it will lead to the first marriage in Cooperdom? Ha Ha Ha.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Hello, MeyerLouie…

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        I thought Meyer was banned by Bruce.

  22. brucesmith49 says:

    What you’re looking for sounds ideal, Fly. I haven’t seen it yet, neither at the DZ, here, and certainly not at the Forum. Perhaps a private, more secure “college” of Cooper minds is needed. My email is brucesmith At rainierconnect Dot com. Feel free to share your thoughts on a more individualized basis.

    • M.L. says:

      Bruce us always fair minded.

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      “college” of Cooper minds is needed” _ including you of course. Are you going to self destruct, explode with accusations, and leave Shutter’s forum too, the way Flyboy did? We will watch for it at Shutter;s forum, if you are man enough. Maybe you and Flyboy can show us what a ““college” of Cooper minds is needed” really is.

  23. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Website for undiscovered geniuses – http://www.ideachampions.com/undiscovered_genius.shtml
    Its the only alternative to a Cooper forum –

  24. Terry Battcher says:

    FLYJACK says:
    December 8, 2018 at 7:50 am

    Meyer,, why so much anger and hate, not to mention repeated threats of violence?

    I agree, why don’t you go the way of Blevins? Your PARDON ME BUT handle and persona is harassment. You’re acting like an uncivilized jerk.

    • MNastt says:

      That wasn’t Meyer Louie.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Either Meyer or Georger… doesn’t matter.. ignorant trolls are a dime a dozen

        Shutter…. Delete my account and posts. You can keep my IP blocked of course.

        FBI agent: “I observed the pilot of the Boeing 727 airplane, Eastern Airlines Flight XXX, exit down the rear ramp. The pilot whom I had observed’ earlier sitting in the cockpit of the aircraft was closely followed by a white male, 40-45 years of age, 5’10”- 6′ in height, 175-185 pounds, olive complexion with dark curly hair, combed straight back. This individual wore a dark suit with a white shirt and tie;”

  25. shutter45 says:

    Fly, your account was removed days ago. the post remain. they are part of a record and benefit nobody removing them. everything posted on a public forum becomes property of that forum.

    Shutter

    • FLYJACK says:

      Technically that is true, but you offered to remove before, now you won’t.. since you never read them I’d think they are irrelevant.

      That is precisely why I never posted the really good stuff…

  26. shutter45 says:

    The IP should no longer be blocked. I first removed your posting privileges until I seen you continuing to sign in on a site you despise so much and put a full block which automatically bans the IP address. then later I removed your account. the IP should be released from any ban. I had no reason to block you from viewing the site permanently.

    Shutter

    • FLYJACK says:

      I don’t despise it, I just reached the end of my patience, discussion there is pointless, a waste of time, no benefit. Toxic. Many members agree with me.. they read it but rarely or never post. You fail to recognize it has become DZ V2.0..

      I checked a few times to see if you removed my posts and deleted my account.. I had to laugh when you were asking questions that I had already posted the answers to… You never read my posts, obviously there is no reason to continue there, a waste of time.

      Some irony, you don’t read my posts, block me then won’t delete them.. if you won’t delete them, I suggest you actually read them to answer some of your questions, but remember I held back the really good stuff as I never trusted that environment, I was right not to.

      Good Luck, I do hope it gets better there. I couldn’t wait any longer.

  27. brucesmith49 says:

    So Fly, what’s the “good stuff?”

    By the way, when I suggested that folks who want to communicate with other Cooperites but don’t want the nastiness common to the DBC Forum or here, I was simply suggesting that people email kindred spirits. I was not suggesting that a secret, private, underground “New DB Cooper Forum” be started.

    Or call those you would like to chat with. My phone number is in the “contact” section of the MN, for those that are interested.

  28. brucesmith49 says:

    NOTICE TO ALL, ESPECIALLY NEW COMMENTERS:

    I will be in New York for the holidays and not monitoring this site with anything close to the same regularity. Hence, two things will happen. First, bad behavior here will not be corrected until my return – then justice will be swift and decisive.

    But more importantly, new posters here will not see their postings until I can get to “approve” their post. That will take time. Dave Shutter has given me a tablet that will give me some Internet access once I figure out how to work it. Further, I am hoping that Santa will give me a laptop so I can maintain some kind of regular cyber connectivity to everyone and everything, but that is still a Christmas wish at this point.

    In the meantime, Merry Christmas to all. And I hope everyone lit their eighth candle last night, too. Good yontif! See y’all in the new year.

  29. shutter45 says:

    Fly, you sound just like Blevins and the rest. put up or shut up dude. that line is so old. and just like Blevins you take things out of context!

    I told you why you were blocked. this all started with you wanting no part of the forum. removing comments gives broken threads with people trying to figure out what was said. Georger asked the same and I didn’t remove his either.

    when is the movie coming out?

    • FLYJACK says:

      Shutter, I like you, you are nice guy but just not too bright, you can’t even figure out the simple stuff when I posted the answers for you. You don’t know what you don’t know.. my purpose has never been to convince anyone of anything, unlike most others. You think I actually care what people think, I am not selling anything. Your repeated accusations are false, insulting and disrespectful.. your reasoning and logic poor and self awareness vague.. There is no middle ground, no discourse from there, move on. I wish your forum success. It just wasn’t a place for me.

      • MNastt says:

        Fly, where are you going to post your “good stuff?” Some of us would like to know.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Good question,, I have enough for a book but I am not interested in writing a book, not my thing. I am really only doing this for myself. Sorry Shutter. There is still more info coming and the research hasn’t concluded.. It can’t be presented in fragmented bits like Shutter’s forum tended to, it needs a comprehensive context. Whether it leads to a resolution or not it is really fascinating stuff. At some point, I’ll have to figure out some way to pull it all together but it would be a big job and I am lazy. I like the critical thinking, research, discovery and puzzles, not presenting the solution.

      • shutter45 says:

        Typical Blevins response. are we going to go 100 comments like him now? you keep saying you don’t care what anyone thinks but you have posted over 200 times the same stuff, and now you are here?

        I don’t pay attention to some of the things you post. that doesn’t make me stupid! I just get tired of the same old thing. one tends to gloss over them. you are similar to Blevins when it come to being confronted. you put things on the table for all to see and see what happens. you get mad when it doesn’t go your way. I have no control over that.

        Snow asked you over a week ago other than fitting and looking like Cooper what else do you have to add…(crickets) you never responded to him. see comment below.

        “So basically, you’re just saying Frederick Hahneman was Cooper?
        The main “evidence” is similarity to the sketch?
        Or is there other evidence?
        I’m not sure what’s new. Surely the FBI had all the “info” you’re claiming…and they decided “not Cooper”
        Why do you decide “Cooper” instead?”

        Personally, as I’ve said in the past. this was a short period after Cooper and I tend to believe they looked into him very well. if not, then they are the stupid one’s. it’s not a suspect someone tried to push on them to look at. they knew exactly who he was.

      • FLYJACK says:

        You just don’t get it..

        You are again insulting me from a position of sheer ignorance. That is the very essence of your forum. I hoped you would rise above it. There are some good people there, give them space to intellectually explore without fear of threats, insults and dismissiveness.

        I am not interested in responding to the same insults you engaged in on your forum and bring it here, if you want to contact me privately about something specific, feel free to do so.

  30. brucesmith49 says:

    How about a nice, long essay at the Mountain News? Or a multi-part treatment of your findings?

    • FLYJACK says:

      I thought about that but it isn’t quite complete and hate writing, this subject is too complex for an essay. I’ll think about some way to do it.

  31. brucesmith49 says:

    Keep that pen moving, Fly…

    In the meantime, I ask everyone to consider this:

    The DB Cooper Corned Beef College To Meet in NYC

    Despite Georger’s rumors at the DB Cooper Forum, the only real DB Cooper College that I know of is the NY Corned Beef Colloquium of Cooperites. We will be meeting at the 2nd Ave Deli in Manhattan, either shortly before Christmas or after the 1st of the Year. Best pastrami in the Big Apple, Dice says, so I say we head there. Email me for details, or call me in New York, where I am heading Dec. 13 from WA for an extended stay. Email me this week in WA to make sure I know you want to get the details on when and where, and my number in NY. It’s a landline. I will also have my cell phone, but reception in the family home on LI is lousy. Again, please email me for the number.

    Dave Shutter has given me a tablet to stay in touch with y’all by email, in an effort to prevent a repeat of certain recent events that were slightly unpleasant… re: last summer and the unexpected visits by the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department AND certain folks from Cooper World… But I gotta learn how to use it, get Internet connections, and such.

    Brian, Dovid, and all other dwellers of the Cooper Vortex in the NY-NJ-CT sector are welcome. I’m voting for a late lunch. 3 pm?

  32. EU says:

    Hey Bruce, we talked about this several months back. I may well be in your neighborhood sometime around New Year’s Day. Email me your NY number. I look forward to meeting some of the East Coast contingent.

  33. shutter45 says:

    I get it Fly, trust me.

  34. brucesmith49 says:

    TC, “Uncle Bruce” or “Cousin Brucie” are fine with me. But you can call me what you’d like. Just don’t call me late to dinner….

  35. brucesmith49 says:

    The Corned Beef College is weighing in. So far: Dice from the DBCF, but it has to be after 8pm, Lenny Depaul from a recent DB Cooper shoot on the Travel Channel – but not on Wednesday, Brian R and the “contingent” from New Jersey. But not Dovid, alas.

  36. Terry Battcher says:

    Corned Beef College…now I’m getting very hungry!
    I’ve post some comments from here to Nanette Barto’s MB, so I’m gonna share this comment that I just made on her/my Cooper thread, it’s intended to be “food for thought”:

    Nanette, I just reviewed the “DAN COoper” signature on the Northwest Orient Skyjack/ NORJACK ticket, and it even has a JT hint in the way the letter p was made. He used both upper and lower case letter o’s, which match up in his historical documents. He implied a letter z with the way he structured the letter N. He put the slanted crossbar in the capital letter A. All of it adds up as proof that he was the same person that sent the taunting letter’s and cutouts after the skyjacking. All Zodiac Jack 101, every bit of it. And yes, Jack Tarrance absolutely fits all of the criteria of the evidence. He is by far the best suspect in the NORJACK case. His writing on that ticket was very deliberately structured. The smaller letter o is the “hoopsnake” type of o, as found on the other documents and especially the Ramsey ransom note. ( actually, perhaps “DAN COopEr” would be a better description of the letter types on the airline ticket.)

  37. Terry Battcher says:

    By doing all of those deliberate details to the airline ticket signature, he encrypted that ticket. What FBI?

  38. Terry Battcher says:

    shutter45 says:
    December 10, 2018 at 12:45 pm

    Cooper didn’t write on the ticket….
    Please explain this remark to me. Yeah, for one thing his name wasn’t necessarily “Cooper.” What is your point, shutter45?

    • TC says:

      Shutter is saying that only the ticket agent wrote on the ticket. Cooper wouldn’t. He recalled all of his notes back and jumped with them. No traces.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        That’s not been the conventional report that I’ve heard. I’t been reported that the UNSUB filled out the ticket himself.

  39. brucesmith49 says:

    The question of who wrote the ticket is controversial. However, the overwhelming number of principals involved and investigators claim that the ticket agent filled out the ticket by himself and that Dan Cooper did not. Unfortunately, the ticket agent – and I forget his name – is deceased and can not answer the question more definitively.

    Fueling the controversy is Tom Colbert, who often and loudly claims that the “unsub” as you call him, filled out the ticket based upon a vague inference from Larry Carr.

    • TC says:

      That has never been the practice of ticket agents. They have always filled out the tickets.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Nevertheless, the ticket has the artifacts that I’ve pointed out. To me, the standout item is the letter p, having been constructed in two separated pieces. This same characteristic also stands out in the documents that followed the skyjacking, showing that he placed special emphasis on this particular detail. There are actually many more points that I can make about that ticket hand printing.

  40. brucesmith49 says:

    That has been the general understanding in Norjak, TC. In fact, Bill Mitchell presented his ticket to several investigators at eh DZ and the Forum to show that the handwriting between his tix and Cooper’s is similar enough to say that the same guy filled it out.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Yup, Colbert is the only one I know advancing the idea that Cooper wrote on the ticket.

      Bruce, I have a puzzle for you,,

      Tom Kaye discovered the silver nitrate on the blackened bills and concluded it was from FBI fingerprint testing that was never reported. That may be, however, I found that silver nitrate was also used as a marker for ransom/stolen money, a precurser to dye-packs. They sprayed or dipped some bills in silver nitrate, bills would turn black and be “marked” as well as the hands of anyone who touched them. It is more likely the FBI would withhold bill marking than fingerprint testing.

      If the TBAR bills were black prior to the FBI then the silver nitrate may be from “marking”.

      The Fazio’s and Brian claimed there were black bills.. before the FBI could fingerprint them.

      “Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others had darkened in color. “They still had rubber bands on them,” Ingram says. “I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn’t really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn’t been touched.”

      Fazio..
      “Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition.”

      If the TBAR bills were marked with silver nitrate that may explain why they were discarded.

      If you can reach out to Brian,,

      1. Ask him if some bills were blackened before the FBI took them? Fazio?

      2. Ask him where “exactly” the rubber band fragments were found? tops and bottoms of all 3 packets or only some? Try to determine if each individual packet was entirely surrounded by rubber bands or the three packets could have been banded together as one bundle.

      Another possibility is.. if the FBI did mark with silver nitrate they may have rewrapped only the packets they marked..

      • TC says:

        One other note: the Ingrams washed the Bill’s with liquid dishwashing soap before taking them to the FBI.

      • brucesmith49 says:

        Will do in the near future. Family matters and the holidays are first, though.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Bruce,

        No rush, we have time before the NORJAK 50th anniversary…

        If accurate, with Brian and Fazio “apparently” seeing black bills before the FBI could fingerprint test then the bills may have been marked with silver nitrate and discarded by the hijacker. That would undermine the “died in the jump” narrative and open up new possibilities. Theoretically, of course.

        Tom Kaye looked for early images of blackened bills but found none. He used that to conclude the silver nitrate was from later fingerprint tests which were never disclosed. However, if the FBI did mark the bills and held that back they wouldn’t allow such images. Blackened bills did show up in 1986 images. Brian’s and Fazio’s statements seem to contradict Toms’ premise.. Can they be confirmed?

        It all hinges on you Bruce, the entire case may turn here, no pressure though.

        Everybody have a Merry Christmas and Holiday and take time to reflect on things that really matter in life.

  41. Terry Battcher says:

    I seem to recall a Walter Cronkite report where he stated that the hijacker “wrote” Dan Cooper as his name on the ticket. I also recall other reports claiming that the only sample they had of Cooper’s handwriting was on that ticket. I’m not just talking about “tix” here, I’m pointing these facts out about the hand printing details: “DAn COopEr,” however this description isn’t completely sufficient. The letter N was drawn small (half size), but as an upper case letter N, using 4 strokes. Large capital letter’s C and O, followed by a ‘diminished in size’ letter o, and note the different degrees at which the strokes of these two letter O’s start at. The small letter p is broken into two distinctive parts, with the open loop of that letter starting at about 1:30 vs a 10:00 o’clock position. The letter E is rather large, with the center crossbar crowding the top of what appears to be a one stroke stem, top and bottom assembly. The letter r is a lower case drawing and is distinctively “cursive,” and not “block” printing. Go back and review the ‘swooping’ assembly of the letter D. Now review all of the taunting letters that followed the skyjacking, and you can plainly see that he most definitely manipulated the letter casing, size and styles, with very definitely added on structures. This is especially true of the Reno Nevada/Hospitality envelope and cutouts letter, in which he actually placed great emphasis on the same letters, as those on the ticket. Examine the “system” cutouts document, it has distinctively “dB COOper.” Emphasis was placed on the letter B and the three letters “COO.”

  42. Terry Battcher says:

    Oh, and don’t missed the “inverted” umlaut symbol, apparently intentionally placed under the half sized letter D on the “system that beats the system” cutouts document.

  43. shutter45 says:

    Tom K doesn’t believe the bills were black in 1971. I asked him if they ould of used the SN before Cooper got the money.

    They had indelible dies for that type of thing. Very popular in high school fire alarms to mark kids setting off the alarm.

    TK

    • FLYJACK says:

      A quote from Kaye’s site..

      “a law enforcement officer mentioned that silver nitrate that was used in the early 70’s to detect fingerprints. This treatment had the negative side effect of eventually turning the evidence black. Commercially available nitrate test strips were employed and the results were clearly positive. Further examination of the news photos from 1971 did not show any black bills. Although there was no record of any testing done on the bills prior to this analysis, the data indicates the blackened bills were checked for fingerprints using silver nitrate at some point in the 70’s.”

      I assume the two years are typos.. money news photos were in 1980 not 1971, and FBI would have used SN for fingerprints in the 80’s, not 70’s.

      Typos aside,, Tom may be correct, it is one possibility. However, he appears to justify it by claiming no photos of black bills. It appears that Brian and Fazio have claimed to see the black bills before the FBI got them in 1980, if so then the silver nitrate must have been applied in 1971. It was used to mark money.

  44. shutter45 says:

    where did you read about this. Tom doesn’t believe they were black until they checked for prints. this was what he told me hours ago.

    • FLYJACK says:

      read what exactly?

      I know what Tom believes,, he may be correct but both Brian and Fazio have stated they saw blackened bills before the FBI would have used the SN,, Their statements need to be checked.. if they did see black bills before the FBI could have used SN, it may have been applied in 1971.

      • shutter45 says:

        where did you read that the Fazio’s & Brian made the “blackened bills”

      • FLYJACK says:

        The quotes are above in my response to Bruce. That is why they need to be checked.

        “Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others had darkened in color. “They still had rubber bands on them,” Ingram says. “I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn’t really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn’t been touched.”

        Fazio..
        “Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition.”

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        Nonsense. Total crap.

  45. shutter45 says:

    It turns black in minutes.

  46. shutter45 says:

    sorry, working on my overhead projector…where did you read these guys made this claim about the bills?

  47. brucesmith49 says:

    I kinda remember Al Fazio saying something to me about some bills he saw were discolored and black. I’ll have to check my notes. At the time, I kinda rolled by eyeballs a bit because he said a few things that no one else was saying, such as NO SHARDS in the SAND, and that pieces were on the tideline even though he was a half-day late to the beach party…

  48. shutter45 says:

    What bills did they see, did the family show the money to them prior to taking it home?

  49. shutter45 says:

    I think we have enough myths in this case.

    • FLYJACK says:

      This is really simple, Brian and Fazio claimed seeing darkened bills, Bruce suggested checking with Brian to clarify. I suggested also asking about the rubber band frags.

      Something wrong with that?

      • shutter45 says:

        Cooper failed to see any black bills….darken in color is with age and being wet.

      • FLYJACK says:

        You don’t know any of that to be true. Might be, might not be.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        It is simple. You just dont see or accept it. Thats where it gets really really really complicated. ‘This is really simple, Brian and Fazio claimed seeing darkened bills,’ and the answer is: “They didn’t! They did not see what you are claiming they saw”. But, you can claim I’m anybody you want me to be. I don’t care – ha ha ha.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Correct, I don’t accept assumptions as fact. Seems to be a common error in the Cooper world..

  50. shutter45 says:

    More true than not….

    • FLYJACK says:

      Truth is binary, you may mean more likely than not..

      Have you read about SN fingerprinting, it is not used for wet surfaces and only for very recent prints… The more I read about it the less likely I believe it was used for fingerprinting the TBAR money. Even Snowmman back on DZ doubted it.

      It would not turn the bills black in minutes, the prints show within 5-30 minutes but the entire surface gradually turns black at a rate depending on UV exposure.

      The Ingrams used Clorox on the bills, it contains sodium chloride which reacts with SN and make SN fingerprinting useless.

      If Brian did see darkened bills as he claimed and it was before the FBI got them then the SN was likely applied in 1971, the only reason at that time would be to mark the bills. that is info the FBI would holdback.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        The small holes in the bills indicate that bacteria ate through the bills, the same goes for the darkened areas. Humus, or black soil is made by bacteria, as in composting, which explains the darkened areas. I’ve been waiting for Tom Kaye’s report about where the bills might have originated from? Upstream? Under soil? Soil under water? Skip the speculations, please.

        BTW, why if Blevins was banned, am I now seeing postings under his name, in this thread? Menacing? I’d say so. Potentially more disinformation from Blevins? Definitely!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Tom Kaye looked for news images of blackened bills taken in 1980 and found none. He used that as a premise to support his FBI SN use for fingerprinting. Tom tested the darkened bills and found SN. If Brian did see blackened bills prior to the FBI getting them it undermines Tom Kaye’s argument. Further, using SN for fingerprinting the TBAR bills makes no sense. It is still possible but it also possible that the bills were marked with SN in 1971. If so, it may explain why those 3 packets were discarded. It is worth pursuing whether it pans out or not.

  51. brucesmith49 says:

    Note to All:

    Soon, I will be traveling to New York for an extended stay to deal with family matters. That means I will not be posting here, nor monitoring the posts. Hence, y’all gotta be on your best behavior.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone!

  52. Robert Blevins says:

    Well, I thought about posting here while Bruce was gone, but decided against it. 🙂
    Have a great Christmas, Cooper fans.

  53. Robert Blevins says:

    However….in case any of you are trying to find me, we’ve mostly moved our Cooper Stuff over to Quora, the Q and A site.

  54. Terry Battcher says:

    If Blevins was banned, why am I currently seeing postings here under his name?

  55. brucesmith49 says:

    Establishing a total ban on Blevins is difficult but not impossible. Since he could post here under a plethora of names and email addresses, one has to go to the source of his Internet connection. I will do that if I have to, but I thought it was more work than I wanted to undertake until now. Still pondering.

    • Marla says:

      How can Christmas be Merry with Blevins back in the mix? Bruce, you are messing with us, correct?

      • TED says:

        Where’s the moderator when we need. This is gonna turn into a free for all with Bruce departed, Blevins here and FLY and PARD mixing it up.

  56. shutter45 says:

    If he has any dignity what so ever he will not attempt to post where is has been banned. I kept telling people he’s always afraid of others doing exactly what he does himself. if you don’t recall he would shutdown his forum while away so someone like him wouldn’t pull any dirty tricks!

  57. PARDON ME BUT says:

    MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL – WELL MOST! Ha Ha ha.

  58. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Definitely GEORGER. Syntax, style, meanness, anger, and common phraseology with an arrogant manner is a dead give away. Go back to Pocohantos, fella.

    Hilarious absurdity.

  59. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Tonight featured Cooper move: “Chato’s Land” (1972) In 1870s New Mexico, a half-breed kills a bigoted sheriff in self-defense but the posse that eventually hunts him finds itself in dangerous territory. Director: Michael Winner. Writer: Gerald Wilson. Stars: Charles Bronson, Jack Palance, James Whitmore | See full cast & crew » ch430 STZWS. See yawl there!

  60. EU says:

    The Cooper Vortex just released their latest podcast which I recorded in Portland the day before the conference. I talk about NORJAK about Sheridan Peterson in particular.

    https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-alive-eric-ulis/

  61. Terry Battcher says:

    This guy picks up where Blevins left off: PARDON ME BUT says:
    December 15, 2018 at 8:39 pm

    Tonight featured Cooper move: “Chato’s Land” (1972) In 1870s New Mexico, a half-breed kills a bigoted sheriff in self-defense but the posse that eventually hunts him finds itself in dangerous territory. Director: Michael Winner. Writer: Gerald Wilson. Stars: Charles Bronson, Jack Palance, James Whitmore | See full cast & crew » ch430 STZWS. See yawl there!

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Terry, thats just Scrooge being Scrooge at Christmas. Pardon Me But (Georger) is a denier, but we know the truth. Merry Christmas to all.

  62. FLYJACK says:

    FBI vault – Cooper file #33 just posted…

    • FLYJACK says:

      2 years after NORJAK and 1.5 years after Hahneman was in custody for the EAL hijacking the FBI was still showing his photos to NORJAK witnesses.. He hadn’t been eliminated as a Cooper suspect. In fact, so far, I have never seen any evidence that he was ever eliminated.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        It’s not surprising to me that the FBI operates that way. Most people don’t realize that the FBI is a political arm of the US government, but who do they all answer to? Hoover became a powerful bureaucratic entity once he got the big appropriations following his take down of John Dillinger. A lot of politicians feared Hoover, because he had files on EVERYBODY that was anybody. I couldn’t find a good picture of Hahnenman on the net. I think that it’s really important that the Cooper community researchers study the airline ticket and the documents that followed the skyjacking. You can see a correlation of how the DAn COopEr signature compares to how, for one example; the Hospitality envelope and letter were constructed. Count the number of pen strokes that were used in making each letter of “DAn COopEr.” I assert that it was probably a common practice in those days for the passenger to fill out his or her own name on the ticket . Think about the probable confusion that could occur if the ticket agent is asking for a passenger’s name and the spelling of their name. No, I think the common practice was for the passenger to write in his or her name and hand it to the ticket agent. Think about concerns for a passenger’s privacy as well. Furthermore, it seems to me that the news media stated that the only sample that the FBI had of the hijacker handwriting, was on the airline ticket, and they went on to point out that COopEr didn’t leave the ransom note behind. It’s also typical of the lockstep media outlets to continue with the “DB Cooper” description of the case, when that was a completely wrongful description. There never was a “DB” Cooper, however, the taunting documents contained a “BD” Cooper description/name. In the course of my research, the “BD” Cooper hint is very important indeed, because one of the first cases we linked to the Zodiac killer cases was the 1947 Black Dahlia case. Former LA detective Steve Hodel makes this same linkage, however the evidence clearly shows that his dad was not the person that murdered cabbie Paul Stine. Paul Stine was the last “official” Zodiac killer victim. “The Zodiac killer” description was media hype that began right before the murder of Paul Stine. Bear in mind that there never was a “Zodiac killer,” only the ‘shock and awe’ media hype. None of the crimes that we link were what they seem. One of John Mark Karr’s soundbite statements was: “Things are not what they seem.” NORJACK was not what it seems…think about everything that there is in the NORJACK case for you to work with! How are ALL of the basic elements currently adding up?

  63. shutter45 says:

    December 6, 1973 they had 694 suspects and 596 were eliminated..98 suspects could Cooper since were unable to determine if they too have been eliminated! who are the 596 and who are the 98 remaining?

    last time I checked. they don’t publicly eliminate very many suspects nor do we have all the information (files) the FBI has..

  64. shutter45 says:

    Error in numbers…694 suspects and 586 eliminated leaving 108..

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Yep, and about 1000 more since 73.

    • Daniel meyers says:

      Do you think it’s possible that the FBI could have cleared the real Cooper. I don’t have a suspect in mind when I say that, but suggesting that the may not fully understand everything that Cooper did or have some facts wrong.

      • Marla says:

        The FBI doesn’t have a clue, Daniel. Nothing has changed since 11/24/71. He appeared and disappeared like an apparition, never to be seen again.

  65. Terry Battcher says:

    There never was a “DB” COopEr. Just a Dan Cooper comic book hero.

  66. Terry Battcher says:

    I know, yeah the DB Cooper cat burglar, but that didn’t stop the media from collectively continuing with the wrongful DB Cooper ‘cash cow’ hype.

  67. Daniel meyers says:

    Merry Christmas to every one. I do have a question for Terry. You have always talked about the Cooper, Zodiac, Ramsey, and other cases being linked. My question I have been researching the Zodiac Killer case and it makes me feel that the letters sent by the Zodiac may have been written with the writer possibly standing. I am suggesting that because of the slant in his writing, it would be more difficult to figure out who wrote it. Their regular writing isn’t probably like that, woulld it make harder to link the cases together and be able to tell they were committed by the same person.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      While the handwriting comparisons to Jack Tarrance aren’t my forte’, I felt that even the simple ones done by Dennis Kaufman are very strong. Nanette fortified Dennis’ findings. YouTube NanetteB777. My involvement with the Ramsey case came right after I did a crash course in the Zodiac cases. I set out to disprove the statement “Jack’s signature is all over the Ramsey ransom note,” and this statement was made by an antagonist that I felt was doing more harm to Kaufman than good. Well, the letters JT practically dominate the entire so-called Ramsey ransom note, in both primary and secondary forms. The primary forms offer this basic message: “(It) exhausting…daughter watching…Speaking daughter being…money killing family think killing Victory.” That is only one form of encryption that I found on the RN, there are several more that I’ve identified and probably several more yet to be decoded. As far as the Zodiac writings done while standing up? Maybe? I do know that one or more of them was suspected to have been drawn with his non-dominant (left) hand.

      I also see evidence that the FBI brass ran the NORJACK case off the rails, the same goes for Ramsey, but limited evidence of the same thing with the Zodiac case. However, the evidence that Meyer Lanski and other mob associates had dirt on J Edgar “Mary” Hoover goes back several decades. Too may eggs in the Hoover basket, directors need changing like elected officials need changing, like dirty underwear needs changing. The same goes for those in any position of power that can manipulate things like the FISA court etc, hint-hint!

      • Terry Battcher says:

        Oh, I forgot to add that I mainly rely other items on the case documents, like figurines that repeat, the repeated treatment of keywords, intentionally misspelled words, rabbit hints, ‘jack rabbit’ nouns, the manipulation of double and triple meanings, his use and misuse of the period mark. Double postage, postage messages that reinforce, postmark dates and locations, time-date stamps on his documents, decimal GPS locations. Actually I see that he used as many of these kind of items as he possible could fit in. For instance, the so-called ransom note, in the Ramsey case, has figurines or structural hints in practically every single word he wrote and implied. Former Boulder DA, Alex Hunter, described the RN as “very fanciful.” When he made his televised speech the “…the list of suspects narrows, and soon only YOU will be on that list.” I only recently came to realize that the RN starts out with the light encryption “List>Mr Ramsey.” Did Hunter realize this artifact? I tend to think that he did. Well, the ‘little list/Mikato’ business is well established in Zodiac killer documents. The Mikato “I have a little list” lyrics or poem rings like Dr Seuss book. And, you have a Dr Seuss book left in the suitcase, along with a Duvet’ and Sham, at the Ramsey crime scene! I’m talking about a lot of evidence that he left a journal for us to track and “fOlLoW.” That last word is a very key hint to Jack Tarrance’s mother’s middle name, Flova, which is on the RN and hinted 6ea times on the 340 (Zodiac killer) cypher, and the Hospitality envelope in the Cooper case! And, I’m still finding things like this after 7 plus years of tenacity!

  68. Daniel meyers says:

    The zodiac letters handwritten slant heavily to to the right, which makes me that the writing hand wasn’t stationary. It seemed to move more freely. I believe it was done to make it harder to catch the writer of the letters. I can see some of linkages in the cases, whether or not they all go back to one person is something I don’t know. I truly don’t believe the Cooper case will be solved barring a death bed confession with evidence of the hijacking. I do think that the Ziidiac case will be solved. There is some possible DNA and with the ancestry DNA data bases they might be able to find a match. The Ramsey one I am not sure.

  69. Daniel meyers says:

    Also Terry, I just heard about something interesting with the Zodiac Killer case. In 1970 in Sacremento Nancy Bennallack was murdered, it wasn’t considered a Zodiac case because the killer broke into her apartment and killed her. The mmurder was a year and 2 weeks after the Paul Stine murder, and 2 days later the Halloween card was sent. What has my interest the police were able to get a DNA profile and are checking data bases. I hope that it is a Zodiac case, and the case is solved and with luck a criminal arrested and justice for the victim’s.

  70. Terry Battcher says:

    The Zodiac killer hype was part of an elaborate coverup for the true motive in the murder of Darlene Ferrin. She was stalked, the killer knew her name, she had witnessed a hit. The prior murder of Betty Lou Jensen was a case of the killer mistaking Jensen for Ferrin. The attack on Hartnell and Shepard was the beginning of the phony Zodiac hype. Both victims bled out, but Shepard received three times the number of stab wounds. If Hartnell had died, there would have been no report of the ominous executioners hood. Neither victim died immediately, showing precision work on the part of the killer. All drawn picture documents had only one “noun,” in common and that “noun” was the word “jack.” SFPD stated that they had a palm print, then the Zodiac hype basically went underground. Jack Tarrance dipped both of his hands in acid up to his wrists after the report of the palm print went out. NanetteB777 on YouTube is where to start. The Cooper skyjacking was predicted in the Halloween card, with the image of a passenger jet, but this was not the only hint. Ramsey case is linked by multiple items. OCCK is also linked. All shock and awe acts of organized crime, all involved cover-ups involving the lock-step MSM, even though they didn’t have monopolized control of the media in the days of the Cooper caper, like they do these days.

  71. Daniel meyers says:

    Found it thanks.

  72. Daniel meyers says:

    There is a new suspect in the Zodiac case, they are calling Waterson but that’s not his real name. He is still alive. He did work at the Traverse Air Force Base. I don’t know much about him but his face resembles the sketch and he did have a hat on that looked like a pilot. The plane could definitely have been a clue to his identity.

  73. PARDON ME BUT says:

    JOHNNIE GREENE! JOHNNIE GREENE! JOHNNIE GREENE! What a waste of natural resources.

    • Marla says:

      Come on. A Green life precludes wasteful use of obnoxious gases. Get a Green life, Pocohontas.🤣

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        Who’s s bafoon? I said nothing…..

      • Gypsy23 says:

        Georger is correct. Unsolveable mystery with baffoons and baboons running the asylum now. Johnnie Greene needs to go camping with Blevins for a week and see who comes out of the woods. My prediction: Big Foot.

  74. Daniel meyers says:

    FLYJACK- Hanneman is a good suspect, I am not positive that he was Cooper. What would be great if there was any DNA that could link a person to the hijacking. I had heard that the FBI had some Cooper hair, I know hair isn’t what the FBI would prefer to test, but if it could produce some DNA you could check data based, even ancestry ones and maybe get a hit.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Hahneman is the best suspect by a long shot. Nobody has all the info that I have so I wouldn’t expect others to reach the same conclusion. I still have some docs on the way, perhaps I can reveal more in the near future..

      Shutter, you left out EU..

    • TED says:

      Hanneman is a bullshit story with no proof at all. By investigators who couldn’t detect a pimple on a bald ass. Blevins could do better.

  75. shutter45 says:

    I don’t think it’s a bullshit story. it’s a theory like all the others…I don’t see much difference than the others..

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Your right. They’re ALL bullshit.

    • FLYJACK says:

      They all can’t be Cooper.. therefore they aren’t all equal.. one is better than the rest and that is Hahneman, by far. They aren’t the same, not even close. If you think they are, you are uninformed.

  76. shutter45 says:

    It’s like a spell takes over there bodies. I see it it in just about every person who has a suspect. they are right and we are wrong. how can all of them be right?

    We don’t want the truth is another popular statement.

    2019 rapidly approaching, and no movie yet?

    Got milk 🙂

    • FLYJACK says:

      So, a suspect is invalidated because somebody pursues them as a suspect…

      some crazy ass logic there…

      Suspects should be evaluated on their own “merits”.. shouldn’t they?

  77. shutter45 says:

    None of them are Cooper…

  78. shutter45 says:

    a lot of people that look into this case simply don’t believe all these suspects for one reason or another. you can’t make someone believe without proof! “he looks like the sketch, he was in the military, he was a paratrooper. he worked in this field or that field etc. etc. it’s a broken record with you guys. then the hatred pops out. it’s up to you guys to show the proof. it’s not the other way around.

  79. shutter45 says:

    We don’t even have 100% proof he made it. that make the odds worse for a suspect.

  80. shutter45 says:

    I spoke with one of the guys from the Reca klan. no matter what I told this guy he didn’t want to believe anything. he firmly believes the flight flew east out of SeaTac. even after I told him so many would have to be wrong. SeaTac is wrong, the Air Force is wrong, all the guys watching the plane on radar are wrong? he told me pilots stated they fly out due east out of Seattle to Portland? he has all kinds of proof too that he’s not showing? he was a nice guy but extremely off the chart with the case.

  81. shutter45 says:

    Not my job, sorry… 🙂

  82. shutter45 says:

    That’s another “suspect tactic”

    I didn’t fill out the application for this suspect…YOU DID..it’s up to you to show the proof. I will gladly look over the evidence as I do all the others. you brought it to the table, so you need to show the cards. I don’t have them and neither does anyone else. the cards are in your hand. you either show them or you shouldn’t be claiming what you have been claiming. that’s simple logic right there.

    I take it you have ALL the files the FBI has to make these claims? I doubt it. you have witnesses backing up this claim?

    • FLYJACK says:

      It isn’t a tactic, I started looking at Hahneman to answer that very question.. Why isn’t it Hahneman?

      I found more evidence to implicate him and none to exclude and none that the FBI ever eliminated him..

      You are the one that has it backasswards. You don’t have to accept a suspect as Cooper but you never reject without evidence.

      You have 100% rejected Hahneman without any evidence but instead from ignorance. Complete lack of logic and critical thinking. Based on that your opinion is meaningless. I have no interest in showing evidence to people whose opinions/thinking I don’t respect.

      • MNastt says:

        Shutter is right. Everyone with a pet suspect either retires early or gets carted off in a Posey belt. Look what happened to Skipp Porteous. Some may say Blevins drove Skipp nutz, but who drove Blevins over the edge? You Cooper theorists are all destined for the basement in the looney bin. All of you.

      • shutter45 says:

        I really don’t care, nor do I need critical thinking on suspects. they always end up floating around the Cooper vortex for years on end. IMO, it’s a waste of time. you don’t think so and that’s fine as well. I look at the evidence. I don’t like constantly going down rabbit holes with suspects.

        I have seen some evidence, including witnesses rejecting. this was a guy who wasn’t brought to the FBI. he was on there radar and I’m sure they checked into him. they put suspects through a lot from people just calling and saying a guy looks like the sketch.

        The first thing that should be done is find out if the FBI knew where he was. you guys work up a whole theory without any proof of where a suspect was that day. it’s usually done backwards with Cooper. you have to find out where he was to proceed to anything past that! no, it’s not easy, but it appears to be a lot easier building it up to look like he’s Cooper.

        I’m entitled to an opinion. my opinion is not good with suspects due to them always ending up with nothing. over a thousands suspects and it appears the FBI shares my opinion. it got very old with them. lots of rabbit holes. the Cooper story needs people like you but you can’t bash every person who disagree’s with your theory!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Can’t comment on other suspects, but Shutter is wrong on Hahneman.

        The FBI looked at Hahneman as a serious suspect for at least two years after NORJAK.. they have never admitted that he was ever eliminated yet Shutter knows he wasn’t Cooper without any evidence.

        Hahneman died well before the tie DNA.. putting him on the plane would be very difficult for them.

        So, I ask Shutter to explain the evidence backing up his conclusion to 100% eliminate Hahneman and he has nothing. Not having evidence to eliminate isn’t evidence to accept, it just exposes his poor logic.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Shutter,

      Your opinion is all yours, even if it is irrational.

      Not all suspects are equal. Lumping and attacking them together is “association fallacy”.
      You don’t have all the evidence. You don’t know what you don’t know.
      I am not trying to convince you or anyone that Hahneman is Cooper, you have rejected him based on ZERO evidence. That is what I am criticizing and disappointed in. If I only knew what you know about Hahneman I would not accept him as Cooper either but I wouldn’t reject him.

      It is a legitimate question to ask and seek.. “Why was Hahneman not Cooper?” even Snowmman asked Larry Carr that question, he never answered.

      My evaluation of the evidence I have is that he is by far the best suspect and I haven’t found anything to eliminate or that the FBI ever did eliminate him.

      I am not bashing your opinion for what you think it is how you think that I don’t respect. It is not conducive to any investigation. It is closed to anything new or unknown. You don’t know that Hahneman was not Cooper, yet claim it.

      To solve this case somebody will have to propose a suspect for evaluation, if you maintain your current logic every suspect will be rejected before they are legitimately eliminated by evidence. That is how the FBI works, they pursue until they can factually eliminate. The bias should be toward an open mind, not closed.

      You are closed. A closed mind will never solve this.

      Happy New Year.

  83. shutter45 says:

    I can only imagine how many people know exactly where Jimmy Hoffa is. so many got it right with him as well. I’ll bet the same insults go back and forth with that case. put the mafia in with it and you probably have people putting hits out on you 🙂

  84. shutter45 says:

    I think Skipp milked it for what it was worth and washed his hands of the whole thing. he moved on with his life and Bobby ran with the wind. the problem is. all the wind is long gone 🙂

    Roberts been busy in the background trying to tell everyone what was wrong with the conference as if his opinion means anything. he’s busy busy busy with the up and coming movie 🙂 2019 is here? slowest production company in all of Hollywood.

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      There’s another example of bullshit……..Robert Blevins movie deal….. put Blevins and FLYJACK in the same suite and let them have it out. Bullshit vs. Bullshit equals……?

  85. shutter45 says:

    Lets not play the DNA game. you guys all want it. then when it’s negative all the sudden “it’s probably not his DNA”

    have they “eliminated” all the suspects on paper? can you show where they dismissed suspect 456, or even Peterson?

    To be honest. I don’t think they actually “eliminate” anyone unless they have proof of where they were that day. it wouldn’t be in there best interest to dismiss without evidence. other evidence could do it as well. that’s the hard part. we don’t have everything the FBI does.

    again, I don’t see anything that makes him anymore of suspect than the others. that’s your job. do you want everyone to jump on the bus? I don’t follow this at all. this is a public forum so others are reading. you seem to be holding back because of me? I’m having trouble understanding your logic. why are you here then if you don’t want to show evidence? where ever you go people are going to question a theory.

    • FLYJACK says:

      You miss the point..

      You claimed Hahneman was not Cooper but have no evidence. Not having evidence to eliminate doesn’t make him Cooper.

      You don’t see anything that makes him more of a suspect….. because you don’t have all the information and have already rejected him.

      The only person I wanted to convince was myself. I don’t really care what others think. You seem to think I have some obligation or need to prove something to everybody. I don’t. Others with suspects may but not me.

      You haven’t questioned it, you have rejected it.

      A forum or blog is a poor format to lay out all the evidence, it is very complex. Here is one point.. I have hundreds..

      Hahneman flew into Seattle on a NorthWest flight years before NORJAK. That did not come from the FBI.

  86. shutter45 says:

    Fly, you are really sounding like Blevins now…you can’t say zero evidence when I told you why. his picture was shown to witnesses. he’s a violent person. he pulled a gun out at the beginning contrary to what you claimed. the MO was not the same. sure he didn’t want to make it look the same but it’s far from what Cooper did. similarities, sure. I can find similarities in lots of things.

    Didn’t his description say he’s missing some back teeth?

    You have to show different. that’s how it’s done. you don’t want to do that so it becomes an issue. the burden of proof is in your hands not mine. I keep telling you this. you are giving me serious flashbacks here…

    • FLYJACK says:

      He pulled a gun in another hijacking so he isn’t Cooper. really? FBI didn’t think so.
      The MO was nearly identical except the gun, I haven’t disclosed all the details, you have no idea. Security was changed after NORJAK and he feared sky marshals. The gun does not eliminate. The FBI showed pics to witnesses for at least two years, some thought he resembled Cooper. Hahneman’s weight did fluctuate dramatically..

      The early suspect description claimed he was missing some upper side teeth, perhaps he wore partials, hard to determine now. That may explain the Cooper tie particles. They were all used in dental prosthetic work. He was also an electrical engineer.

      The burden of proof is not mine because I am not trying to convince you. That isn’t my goal. I just think you are not rational to reject without evidence to do so.

      Hahneman can’t be compared to any other suspect, he is actually swarthy, curly/marcelled dark hair, no accent, turkey neck, matches the description, age 49, weight 165-175, no marks/scars, was dressed thin black tie, white shirt, dark suit and overcoat, brown shoes, dark sunglasses, actually hijacked for ransom a 727 and jumped out the back stairs, threatened to blow up the plane with a briefcase bomb, gave the pilot a hand written note and demanded its return, had pills for the crew, had extensive airplane knowledge, gave flying instructions, closed curtain, closed shades, left open parachute behind, smoker, military, electrical engineer, never home, loner, intelligent, had a grudge, was seen with a green bag, etc….

      Do you actually think asking “Why not Hahneman?” is not a legitimate question..

      You don’t have to accept Hahneman as Cooper but rejecting him without evidence is looney and comparing him to other suspects is crazy.

  87. shutter45 says:

    You don’t care what others think…again, why are you here? the purpose of these forums are to discuss topics, agree or disagree with statements and evidence. if you don’t care what others think then why would you make a post in the first place?

    • FLYJACK says:

      I don’t care what you think but I am not going to allow you to discredit me. Just like you did on your forum you always pull out the Blevins card… to insult and straw-man. You have some sort of Blevins Associative Disorder. You can’t back up with evidence the reason you reject Hahneman so you throw it out as a defence.. childish crap.

      You are incapable of any rational discussion…

  88. shutter45 says:

    Better yet, if you don’t care what I think. then why have you been replying?

  89. shutter45 says:

    Hahneman flew into Seattle on a NorthWest flight years before NORJAK. That did not come from the FBI.

    months before would be something..years prior, why? did he have family, business etc. you claiming it was a recon or a dry run of some sort?

  90. shutter45 says:

    Kenny worked for NWO!!!!!!!!
    Peterson lived in Seattle and worked for Boeing, and was a skydiver. it all fits!!!!!!!!!

    • FLYJACK says:

      You are an ignorant asshole.. that is only one point of hundreds.

      Did KC or SP hijack and jump out the rear stairs of a 727? Hahneman actually did.

  91. Daniel meyers says:

    Shutter, while I am not convinced that Hanneman is Cooper, I do feel that any one who says who they think is Cooper basically gets ridiculed for it. You may not see it that but I understand how Fly Jack feels.

  92. shutter45 says:

    I can’t help it if my opinion hurts anyone. that’s there problem. re you telling me I can’t disagree with someone being Cooper?

    • shutter45 says:

      “It has been solved” is a pretty arrogant statement coming from anyone.

      • Daniel meyers says:

        What I am saying is are people getting ridiculed for having a theory on the case going to help the case get solved ? IMO To me it seems like it is going to discourage someone from coming forward with info or presenting a theory. The FBI may not know all the facts in the case, and not everything will make perfect sense. People’s stories do need to get scrutinized but often seems to attack the person presenting it.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Your opinion is worthless shit. It is ignorant and irrational.

      I said moths ago on your forum that based on the info I have I believe Hahneman was Cooper short of forensics and I don’t expect anyone else to accept it.

      I would expect people to not accept Hahneman as Cooper but to completely reject with no evidence is braindead.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Daniel meyers,

      People want the case solved, some people just don’t want somebody else to solve it. Destroying others lifts their relevance and ego..

      Suspects live and die based on their own merit, not by who is presenting the evidence. Attacking the messenger is an emotional defence mechanism that subverts knowledge advancement. NORJAK seems to attract fragile egos in need of affirmation.

      When you are ridiculed/smeared for posting facts, that is a toxic environment best avoided.

  93. shutter45 says:

    He can connect all the dots and it still doesn’t make him Cooper. they have had 40 plus years and nothing…only one witness stated the marcelled hair. he has a scar on the back of his hand, no? more than a few “resembled” Cooper. this was very early into the case while fresh on the minds of the witnesses.

    Yes, the burden of proof lies within the person testifying to any given subject. you have stated the case has been solved. damn right the burden is on you.

    • FLYJACK says:

      More ignorance from Shutter..

      The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.

      • shutter45 says:

        “More ignorance from Shutter..

        The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.”

        Congratulations Flyjack, you are officially second best to one Robert Blevins.

        I’ve read where the FBI claims no scars and also read other reports of a scar. you call me ignorant but failed to notice I said “didn’t he have a scar on the back of his hand, no” that’s a question. the you blast me for it and end by saying “if he did they didn’t notice” ?

        You have attacked me personally while I have done nothing of the sort. this is typical with suspect pushers. the hatred levels constantly go up on the scale. love the Blevins type header for your post. you have learned a lot from him. I have nothing further to say to you.

  94. shutter45 says:

    “some thought he resembled Cooper.”

    I firmly believe, especially back in the early 70’s that if Flo, or Tina & Alice ever seen a photo of Cooper they would jump right up and say “that’s him” I think they could ID him today. the passengers not so much. Flo was in fear for years checking under her car for a bomb.

    This is not a typical crime where a witness only see’s the perp for a few seconds or minutes. they had hours. it sank into there minds.

    Cooper dressed very common for the period. suit and tie and overcoat, odd, strange. nope. very common. look at the files. case after case of “he looks like the sketch” every suspect looks like the sketch in one way or the other. Gossett was dead on, along with I think suspect #1. it doesn’t make them Cooper.

    I don’t know why everyone seems focused on passengers descriptions. how could Tina miss a rust color suit. how do you part marcelled hair? Hahneman looks like Duane Weber if you ask me, especially from the side? he has odd eyebrow’s..half..

    I take it files are somewhere of interviews with Hahneman in prison. did they ever talk with him?

    • TED says:

      DB Cooper’s identity is unknown. People think they can pigeon-hole a particular subject to the air pirate because of a physical trait or skill. So far, no one has presented the proof needed to close the case out. The end.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Hahneman didn’t talk, his pic was still shown to witnesses at least 2 years after NORJAK and 1.5 years after he was caught. That means the FBI could not eliminate him in at least 1.5 years of investigating him.

      I haven’t seen any evidence that he was ever eliminated.

  95. shutter45 says:

    Just in case it gets missed from above…

    “More ignorance from Shutter..

    The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.”

    Congratulations Flyjack, you are officially second best to one Robert Blevins.

    I’ve read where the FBI claims no scars and also read other reports of a scar. you call me ignorant but failed to notice I said “didn’t he have a scar on the back of his hand, no” that’s a question. the you blast me for it and end by saying “if he did they didn’t notice” ?

    You have attacked me personally while I have done nothing of the sort. this is typical with suspect pushers. the hatred levels constantly go up on the scale. love the Blevins type header for your post. you have learned a lot from him. I have nothing further to say to you.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Yikes,, the FBI mentioned the scar on the hand after he was ID’d and they were looking for him, they added that later. The hijacking witnesses never mentioned a scar,, get it. Is this too complex for you.

      Hahneman witnesses never noticed the scar and neither did NORJAK witnesses for Cooper. So, per FBI, if Hahneman had a scar, it wasn’t noticeable and is irrelevant. Stop me if this is too difficult.

      Meh, same old shit from you, taking innuendo lessons from Georger. Blevins obsessed.. try therapy.

      I hope you just ignore my posts… or go back to your toxic forum where critical thinking goes to be ridiculed to death.

  96. shutter45 says:

    Yikes,, the FBI mentioned the scar on the hand after he was ID’d and they were looking for him, they added that later. The hijacking witnesses never mentioned a scar,, get it. Is this too complex for you.

    lol, first you call me an uninformed fool and then admit you were wrong and twist to to fit…(applause) love how you admit guilt and continue to insult! people are saying you are full of shit here, so why are you in this toxic atmosphere?

    If he had a visible scar odds are Tina would of noticed it. the passengers on Hahneman’s were terrified with the way he handled the hijacking and pointing a gun. did any of the witnesses sit next to him for hours? passengers wouldn’t notice a scar from a distance.

    Tina didn’t have a gun pointed at here or a violent atmosphere like Hahneman shows in his hijacking. she sat next to him and had conversations with him, shared a smoke etc. you are giving false conclusions to make things fit. notice how I say it’s highly possible she would of noticed the scar vs saying as fact she would of noticed it?

    It appears you are trying to discredit me vs conducting a mature conversation. Blevins 101 all over again…

    • FLYJACK says:

      I thought and hoped you wouldn’t respond anymore… I’ll try to keep it brief.

      Hahneman hijacking witnesses didn’t notice a scar but NORJAK witness would have, therefore Hahneman isn’t Cooper. (Is that about right)

      You stick to that bad logic… funny the FBI didn’t think of that.

      • shutter45 says:

        You take things out of context much like Blevins. I’m giving an example. we have two different hijackings and two different environments. one is hostile while the other is not so much. we have established a scar is on his hand. we know for a fact that Tina was inches away from him for hours and concluded no visible scars or tattoo’s. while the others on a different hijacking reports no scars while he did in fact have one.

        as I mentioned above that you seemed to have glossed over is the fact of me not stating things as fact. you are claiming I have! Blevins reads into things like this too!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Too funny,,, you are the King of lacking of context…

        Your point is what regarding the scar?

        BTW, There was a rumour posted by Bruce that the FBI held back that Cooper had a scar on the back of his left hand, I tried to verify but it kept tracking back to Jo Weber, so not credible.

        If anyone has any real info on it let me know…

  97. shutter45 says:

    Stating the case is solved is claiming FACT beyond a reasonable doubt. I’ve yet to see anything that can make the claim a FACT!

    Reasonable doubt is a term used in jurisdiction of common law countries. Evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt is the standard of evidence required to validate a criminal conviction in most adversarial legal systems.

    Have you contacted the FBI to prove you have solved the case?

    • FLYJACK says:

      IMO, it is solved. Solved is subjective. I never stated beyond a reasonable doubt (legal standard) or as FACT. You have taken it out of context as usual. Funny, you claim to be entitled to your own opinion but nobody else is entitled to theirs..

      I stated many times, my opinion is based on all the info I have short of forensics.. which I can’t control.

      I still haven’t finished, there are some things still on the way and being worked on. Maybe there will be a smoking gun or something to exclude.. we’ll see. I’ll say though that the Hahneman story is fantastic even if he wasn’t Cooper.

  98. shutter45 says:

    opinions are not fact. nobody believes the case is solved except you. the sun coming up tomorrow is a fact. saying Hahneman is possibly Cooper is the proper statement vs he was Cooper or the case has been solved. I will still disagree. nobody ID’d him which is damaging. the case could of been left open as a person of interest. doesn’t mean they investigated only believing that he was Cooper. lots of suspects have had just as much time and effort and nothing came of them or the conclusions. that’s how I view things. you go one way or the highway and start insulting those who disagree.

    My opinion is what it is. it’s extremely apparent you feel the need to constantly insult me for my opinion. throw everything ya got, it won’t change anything. Circumstantial evidence and coincidences are hard to believe is enough to solve a case. it’s been done before without coincidences though.

    Solving the case would require putting the subject in the area on that date. finding physical evidence to back things up such as notes, confessions, witnesses identifying him, things used during the crime. I realize that’s not easy either, but framing, or accusing someone is! the whole Christiansen family is tossing there own family member under the bus!

    I’m use to people presenting the evidence and going through it to validate anything said on any given subject. I don’t like to get involved with suspects. I don’t think I’m alone on this either. that doesn’t make someone decide they don’t wish to solve the case. a common pattern starts with people who have suspects. you have all the information so why do we need to look for it?

    • FLYJACK says:

      opinions are not fact.. no shit Sherlock..

      I never said it was fact.. it is my opinion.

      Wrong, I don’t call you an ass because of your opinion, it is because you are an ass.

      I stated facts here and back on your forum and you ridicule them, they are single facts.

      You constantly use innuendo and the Blevins smear, again an ass.

      You claimed Hahneman is not Cooper with no evidence and virtually no knowledge about him. Ass move.

      You contextually distort my statements to fit your bias, beyond a reasonable doubt is a legal standard not an opinion standard. Once more, an ass.

      You are a hypocrite, my opinion is not valid but yours is. Rhymes with grass.

      You constantly make incorrect assumptions and false accusations.. I really don’t expect you to accept Hahneman as Cooper. I don’t care what your opinion is.. I wouldn’t accept Hahneman as Cooper either if were you but I would have an open mind and be respectful.

      There is no burden on me to prove anything to anybody, you guys could have done your own homework years ago but didn’t… I don’t see any reason to share info with you or your disrespectful forum environment and clearly you don’t respect me and the info I have..

      You have created the ultimate self imposed catch 22.. you can’t critically evaluate a possible suspect when you have started by rejecting him based on assumptions.

  99. shutter45 says:

    “Maybe there will be a smoking gun”

    This is my point. how can you claim the case is solved and still be looking for a smoking gun..you shouldn’t need one or already have it to make this statement…

    • FLYJACK says:

      It is my opinion, that is why. The evidence I have now is strong enough to convince me. A smoking gun means beyond circumstantial.

      Contrary to Coopertown self appointed Judge Shutter opinions aren’t a legal standard.. though some are convicted on circumstantial evidence alone.

  100. shutter45 says:

    Man, you have gone full blown Blevins dude…

  101. shutter45 says:

    Such a hateful comment for someone’s view Flyjack. I’m not appointing judge to nothing. it’s my opinion whether you like it or not. it appears to be eating through you? this makes you look foolish.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Of course you are playing Judge, you are claiming an opinion must meet the legal burden of proof or it is invalid. This is complete BS on many levels.

  102. shutter45 says:

    “A smoking gun means beyond circumstantial.”

    Lets take a look, shall we?

    The term “smoking gun” is a reference to an object or fact that serves as conclusive evidence of a crime or similar act.

    Spare the act of minimizing the term. so, you are wrong! a smoking gun is exactly what I stated it was.

    It’s fine that you believe it’s solved but you shouldn’t post it unless it’s actually true!

    • FLYJACK says:

      So, what is your point? I can’t have an opinion because you need “a smoking gun”.. Sorry, I don’t need a “smoking gun” to have an opinion. You have an opinion without any evidence and very little knowledge.

      • shutter45 says:

        Fly, this is getting old…you clearly stated the case was solved, correct? you need conclusive proof for that statement, correct? then you stated you are still looking for the smoking gun, correct? then state the story is fantastic even if he isn’t Cooper, correct?

        That alone implies you have no validation to claim the case is solved…and yet we are still at it hours and possibly days later?

      • FLYJACK says:

        I stated months ago on your forum that IMO, it is solved short of forensics, why – because I have overwhelming circumstantial evidence that convinced me. It is my opinion, not a legal standard contrary to your assertion. I don’t need a smoking gun to have an opinion. It is enough evidence to have an opinion. That is enough for me.

        You can believe what you want but FYI you really know very little about Hahneman so your opinion means nothing to me.

  103. shutter45 says:

    Mr. Blevins. seek help….

  104. shutter45 says:

    100 comments because I don’t believe Hahneman is Cooper and the case isn’t solved. talk about a waste of time….

  105. shutter45 says:

    I never once said you are not allowed to have an opinion. not once! I commented on two things. one, the fact of you claiming the case was solved, and number two would be not believing Hahneman was Cooper. nowhere in my comments do I lay claim to you not having an opinion.

    To finalize. I don’t believe Hahneman is Cooper based on current evidence and my beliefs past that. I also strongly disagree that the case has been solved. especially when someone claims it’s a fantastic story even if he’s not Cooper!

    Everyone on this board, including you are judges if you wish to get technical! if someone agree’s with me then so be it. if they disagree that’s fine too.

    you can keep insulting me all nite. I have to leave now…

    • FLYJACK says:

      I wouldn’t believe Hahneman was Cooper either if I only had the info you have. You claimed he is NOT Cooper without any evidence and little knowledge.

      • shutter45 says:

        I’ve heard that so many times from o many different people. I’m done buddy…gotta run.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        You two need to knock it off. Blevins is the KING OF VENOM. Long live the DB COOPER MYSTERY. 2019 and beyond…..

      • FLYJACK says:

        shutter45..

        You have engaged in association fallacy aka poor logic, each suspect needs to be assessed based on their own merits. You rejected Hahneman before you had any knowledge and you still have very little. You attacked and ridiculed me for my opinion from a position of ignorance to back up your emotional position. That is childish BS.. That is why I called you an ass, not because you don’t agree with my opinion.

        The correct position for you to have is to not accept or reject. Get it. Rejection without evidence is irrational so is attacking the messenger.

  106. Darren says:

    Episode 7 of The Cooper Vortex is up. DB Cooper was an International Spy, with Vern Jones. Enjoy!

    https://pod.link/1439712498

    • Gypsy23 says:

      FLYJACK, listen up. You have not solved this case. You have presented a suspect of your own liking. That’s it! No more. No less. Your fervor will get you a reputation much like Blevins. There will be 20 new suspects in 2019, many with better presentations than yours. Get over it! The DB COOPER lineup is a mile long and an inch deep. Yours, maybe half an inch.

  107. Terry Battcher says:

    I’ll say it again…the string of taunting documents that followed the so-called DB Cooper skyjacking hold multiple pieces of evidence that the person that composed them had inside crime scene knowledge. There’s also evidence that the DAn COopEr signature on the airline ticket was done by that same person, which is only one of the reasons why I believe that the FBI retained the taunting documents. This stands as pretty good evidence that the UNSUB survived the jump[*]. Based on my experience of studying the suspect that Nanette and I name, “screwy” evidence was also a primary characteristic of this same suspect, and the Tina/Tena bar money find is very screwy evidence indeed. Also, for him to have controlled every aspect of the execution of the crime and yet leave behind the clip-on tie, which turns out to have far too much evidence on it, is more screwy evidence, because it would seem to be pretty sloppy in an otherwise well planned and executed crime., and like the Ramsey ransom note…it’s too much evidence. [*Assuming that the same person that purchased the ticket also used the ticket.] BTW, examine and compare the letters D and p on the ticket, the D has an overtly closed loop over the stem, yet the letter p has those two sections overtly disconnected! I read that letter p as another one of our suspect’s many many JT signature hints. JT hints are pervasive features of the Ramsey ransom note, that is, once you look for and recognize them. The primary JT hints on the RN convey the message: “(IT) exhausting…daughter watching…Speaking daughter being…money killing family think killing Victory!”

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Terry, I like many of your posts. But you need to understand something. Cooper did not sign his name to NWOA ticket. Ticketing agents ALWAYS did it themselves. And, Cooper would not leave that type of evidence behind. He was “too clean” to do something idiotic like that. I’m sure you can figure that out, Terry.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        Gypsy 23, no sir, you are flat out wrong, the UNSUB signed the ticket himself, then handed in to the clerk.

      • FLYJACK says:

        T Battch…

        I am at about 98% that Cooper did NOT write his name on the ticket but if you have/know of evidence that he did, that would be significant. It very closely matches Hahneman’s writing but I think Lynse wrote it.

  108. Daniel meyers says:

    Terry- I don’t know if you mentioned this before but on the Halloween Card sent by the Zodiac, on the skeleton is a pumpkin maybe it’s a clue to a name like Jack or John. I do know who your suspect is that’s why I mentioned it.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Yeah…
      “jack” o lantern, that’s the noun hint that’s found on all of the Zodiac killer’s pictorial items…”jack.”

  109. Nicholas Broughton says:

    Klansnic is the best suspect to date not Hahneman,,,sorry to break to ya fly.

    • FLYJACK says:

      When did he hijack and jump out of the rear of a 727?

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        FLY:
        ALL suspects jumped at 8:13 PM on 11/24/71. Every damn one of them. It was hard to get them all out of the fucking door before they flew over Portland. Best damn display of jumpers. Quite a fight at Tina’s Bar over the booty, but I hear they all got a piece of the action. Your suspect is in there too. He was number 141 to open his chute.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        ps. If you question this fact, ask Georger. He knows this shit better than anyone.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        ps. If you question this fact, ask Georger. He knows this shit better than anyone.

      • Nicholas Broughton says:

        He piloted a B-17 Bomber that was shot down over Steyr Austria during WW2, Him and his crew all safely parachuted out the bombay at 27,000 feet and evaded enemy capture from the germans for 2 days on the ground. Hijacking a plane he help build in his own backyard would of been childs play for old Jim with all due respect Fly. Try him in the fire! If he’s not cooper he will be consumed but if he is cooper he will come out not even smelling like smoke….checks more boxes then anybody else.

        1, Knowledge of 727 ✔️+
        2. Shot down fighter PILOT just like Dan Cooper (Comic) ✔️
        3. Stalag Luft 1 POW for 13 months/ battle hardened ✔️
        4. Photo wearing what looks to be the very tie in evidence ✔️
        5. Worked on the Breaking system and CRT displays for SST ✔️
        6. Olive skin similar to George Clooney ✔️
        7. Traveled extensively for Boeing and on personal time back and forth to Canada, Paris, Italy, South America, and Austria ✔️
        8.Closely resembles sketches ✔️
        9. Fluent in German and spent considerable time in france and italy being stationed in both before being captured in WW2. ✔️
        10. Distinctive fold of skin like a turkey gobbler and unusual slant in the hairline. ✔️
        11. Father worked at a quarry in the black diamond area 💥
        12. Had “my one and only parachute ride” and a reference a reference to the year 1980 (1945 + 35=1980) in which he “wonders if he could still find his wallet in the cabin he hid in after parachuting from his burning B-17 at 26k ft, in his obituary ✔️
        13. A Mountaineer ✔️

        I can go on and on…..

      • FLYJACK says:

        Nicholas Broughton,,

        Don’t see hijacking and jumping out the back of a 727 on that list..

      • FLYJACK says:

        J-Greene,

        Hahneman isn’t my suspect, I don’t own it… sell it or represent it. He was the FBI’s suspect and wasn’t eliminated. Attacking me doesn’t affect Hahneman’s bona fides… This is the strawman nature of the Cooper vortex, riddled with logical fallacies and even inventing brand new ones.. the vortex consumes logic, distorts reason and subverts critical thinking. It renders some incapable of separating their ass from the pot. It causes some to drag others down to lift their own egos, the vortex is a disease with no cure. It consumes the weak and turns them into that which they despise. The vortex is a dance with madness. The only question, is it a waltz or a tango?

    • Gypsy23 says:

      FLYJACK: More of a salsa, with lots of sauce. Don’t take these squirmishes too personal. You seem like a decent guy with some open mind. You haven’t done anything with visciousness. Only Blevins acts this way……….threatening people and sneaking up on their homes. Keep an open mind, guy. You are now a player in the NORJAK saga.

  110. Daniel meyers says:

    The problem for everyone is putting their suspect on the plane on the day in question.

  111. Nicholas Broughton says:

    14, Fits the age, height,, weight decription and was in excellent shape which would of been paramount

    15. Test Pilot for Boeing ✔️

  112. Nicholas Broughton says:

    Yes I can, Danlel.

  113. Daniel meyers says:

    Has anyone ID him as Cooper?

    • FLYJACK says:

      Hahneman – NORJAK witness statements..

      _________ stated the photos of _______ represented an individual that to him ______ were the closest he has seen to his recollection of unsub.

      _________ stated that based on the photographs he could not say that ______ was identical with unsub, however, he could not say that he was not identical.

      Side view __________________ stated that based on the photograph he could not say that _____ was not identical with unsub.

      ______ believed the photograph of ______ bore a very strong resemblance to the hijacker. He particularly noted the hairline, stating that if the hair in the photograph was marcelled as was the hijacker’s, it would be an exceptionally good likeness.

      He was unable to determine from the photograph the complexion of ______ but again emphasized the hijacker had a swarthy or Latin type complexion and it appeared to him ______ might have such a complexion.

  114. FLYJACK says:

    Another interesting point… (circumstantial)

    Tosaw… “Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, “Don’t worry, I’ve got some pills that will keep them awake”.

    Hahneman hijacking..

    Transmissions overheard on airport radio frequencies indicated the hijacker had asked for evening newspapers and five stimulant tablets.

    AND..
    During Hahneman’s hijacking he took dramamine, half pill given to First Officer (on demand)

  115. Daniel meyers says:

    Flyjack- you have a very good suspect, that one could argue that may have been on the plane. Most people can build a strong circumstantial for their suspect, but I think that you have gone a step further with your suspect.

    • FLYJACK says:

      It is still a strong circumstantial argument. The strongest by far. Reading the FBI docs on Hahneman is compelling, even the crew remarked that they thought it was DB Cooper.

      • FLYJACK says:

        They recovered Hahneman’s narrow tie on the hijacked plane… could test it now but it is probably long gone…

  116. Terry Battcher says:

    Johnnie Greene says:
    January 2, 2019 at 2:23 pm

    FLY:
    ALL suspects jumped at 8:13 PM on 11/24/71. Every damn one of them. It was hard to get them all out of the fucking door before they flew over Portland. Best damn display of jumpers. Quite a fight at Tina’s Bar over the booty, but I hear they all got a piece of the action. Your suspect is in there too. He was number 141 to open his chute.

    Ha, ha, ha, I agree!

  117. FLYJACK says:

    Tom Kaye’s talk from Conference.

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Thanks Flyjack. Tom gave a very good presentation. Does anybody have Tom’s CV? Does anyone know his list of academic degrees or qualifications for peer reviewing purposes?
      Here are some of my opinions and questions:
      1. The tie analysis casts a wide net and does not narrow a list of suspects. And it does not create a new list of suspects.
      Why? Because it cannot be confirmed that the tie belonged to the hijacker. Most likely, based on early FBI 302’s, the tie was probably worn by Cooper when he first entered the aircraft and later placed it on seat 18E, as his calling card, before he exited the plane. There is no way to establish ownership of the tie prior to his boarding the flight. Cooper was so meticulous in not leaving evidence, the more likely scenario is that he purchased the tie used, or stole it, prior to boarding flt. 305.
      2. How much “other” contact did the tie have after 11/24/71? The FBI most certainly studied the tie and shipped it to WA DC for examination in the preceding 40 years before Kaye conducted research. There could have been much material cross-contamination of the tie, including prior handling and testing.
      3. The matter of titanium is certainly a valuable area of inquiry, but not at all conclusive that Cooper worked in a machine shop. What machinist wears his tie exposed while working in a machinist’s environment?
      4. Even though the tie is the only real physical component that seemingly is part of Cooper, it is far too speculative to conclude that he must have worked in a particular field or industry.

      I would give Mr. Kaye an “A” for effort and postulation of scientific examination, but a D for conclusive reasoning. Without establishing long-term control of the tie, a good investigator would say that this evidence points in no direction whatsoever. It does not establish a suspect, or even a plausible profile of the actual suspect, without knowing for certain that Cooper had long-term control and possession of the tie. It appears that he gave it up freely during the crime, which contradicts the modus operandi of all other aspects of this hijacker.

      My impression: the tie is another decoy to send weary investigators intentionally down the wrong path.

      • Marla says:

        100%. Excellent comments and analysis.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        I think Tom Kaye actually mentioned in his presentation that the DNA taken off of the tie showed as many as 15 different profiles. So, simple logic would suggest that many different individuals wore that tie. It easily could have been purchased at a Goodwill store or taken from someone. The non-organic compounds/elements found on the tie prove nothing at all when coupled with evidence of so many other biological profiles also found. A complete dead end for any rational investigator. And a huge waste of personal resources too. But fun to listen to in the VORTEX, which eventually gets everyone, even Tom.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Handled the tie not wore it, probably mostly FBI people..

      • TED says:

        Sorry Flyjack. Gypsy’s logic is valid. 15 different biological DNA profiles on the tie. Yet, Tom Kaye hangs his hat on the metal samples as ultimate proof that DB Cooper worked in the aerospace industry as a machinist? Terrible logic. Those facts dont reconcile and would be tossed out of a courtroom proceeding. Trace metallic evidence can be used forensically IF connected to one individual. Here, not only are there 15 individuals, but we dont know who ANY of them are. This is evidentiary failure which doesn’t get to the sniff test. The tie is a red herring unless you can isolate to one individual. That style of black tie was common amongst military dress uniforms in the 60’s and 70’s. And, a better focus would be the tie-tac clip, rather than the tie. The DNA taken from the tie was found on the neck-clip, showing that many individuals actually WORE that tie. Tom’s own facts in his presentation misplace the direction of a rational conclusion.

      • FLYJACK says:

        No way, 15 different people wearing a $1.50 tie in 6 years is silly.. More likely it was contamination from handling in the 30 years after..

        The FBI claimed 3 DNA profiles in 2001, it was Tom that later claimed 14-15 partial profiles based on his knowledge of files. We don’t really know were they all came from.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        That’s the point, Flyjack. Tom had unfettered access to the FBI files, not you and I. It was Tom who made the statement in his presentation that there were 15 different profiles. The ONLY place where a DNA sample could be taken was on the tie-clip where it comes in contact with the neck. The claim back as early as 2004 was made by the FBI that they could take some epitheleal skin samples off of the clip. Later, the FBI stated that the samples taken
        showed too much denigration of the DNA sample for any meaningful analysis. 35 years does that to DNA. Like you, I also heard that there were only three profiles from the tie. No idea where Tom came up with 15? Did your suspect smoke? Apparently they found traces of lighted match residue on the tie. Anyway, I’m not here to piss and moan at you. Just stating my own opinion. That’s all.

      • FLYJACK says:

        He isn’t my suspect, he should be everyone’s until he can be eliminated.. he was an FBI suspect because he committed a similar hijacking of a 727 six months after NORJAK. I can’t find any evidence that he was ever eliminated.

        The FBI failed to recognize that the tie was manufactured in 1964-65, something easy to do from the labels. So, the tie particles had about 6 years and many environments to accumulate those particles.

        Hahneman was a smoker, he demanded and received 2000 Benson & Hedges cigarettes which he opened during the hijacking. He also left a package of Viceroy’s in an overcoat he left on the plane. Viceroy’s were filtered and equivalent to Raleigh’s both made by B & W.. the difference was the marketing.

  118. FLYJACK says:

    Vern Jones talk from Conference (Walter Reca)

  119. FLYJACK says:

    Bruce Smith talk from Conference (Tena Bar)

    • TED says:

      Bruce delivers a story like no one else can. Out of the ballpark!

      • Marla says:

        Bruce lakc credbulaty. He and Galen are no match for honest folks.

      • FLYER says:

        So you agree with the made up story of Galen Cook, peddled by his friend Bruce Smith? How can you trust a man that will infringe on people’s privacy and go to any lengths to scoop other people’s stories? Why do Smith’s sources always shut him off and slam the door on him with no further interviews? I like Smith’s huffing and puffing – hopefully he wont drop dread during one of his presentations?

      • brucesmith49 says:

        Editor’s Note:

        Many new posts since December 14, 2018 have not been approved until now because I was in NY without Internet service. Hence, as admin here, I could not approve new posters. Now I can, and regular service will be restored.

  120. Terry Battcher says:

    I think that you also have to look at odds of such a tie with so many highly specialized particles on it ending up in a thrift store, as being very very low. My take is that the tie holds a series of messages. I assert that the odds are also very low that one particular person is normally gonna get such a large list of highly specialize particles on his own tie. Otherwise, you are willfully assuming that all of the locations holding these microscopic particles were very very sloppy operations. I also highly doubt the one particular manufacturing facility is gonna uses each and every one of the highly specialized particles inclusively on one manufactured item, or even ten or twenty different items. Think all of the evidence through very carefully before leaping to conclusions, please.

    • Marla says:

      brilliant! The tie was obviously a plant by …. then came the money plant … then came the plant to make Yogurt! Eat more beans.

  121. FLYJACK says:

    Mark Metzler talk from DB Cooper Conference (Parachutes)

    • FLYJACK says:

      For Hahneman’s hijacking.. he descended the 727 rear stairs backwards and jumped back first, just as Mark described Cooper’s possible jump method..

  122. FLYJACK says:

    Eric Ulis talk from DB Cooper Conference (Sheridan Peterson)

  123. FLYJACK says:

    Pete Roscoe talk from DB Cooper Conference (Robert Rackstraw)

  124. FLYJACK says:

    Eric Ulis Introduction DB Cooper Conference

  125. FLYJACK says:

    DB Cooper Conference panel Q & A

  126. EU says:

    For those interested in knowing the precise Tena Bar money find spot.

    https://thecoopercase.com/pages/tena-bar-money-find-spot

    Cheers!

    • FLYJACK says:

      Here is more confirmation. Palmer is pointing to that exact spot and it lines up to your spot. In line with the row of trees E to W at North side of field…

      At 27 seconds Palmer points to the exact location on a map.

  127. FLYJACK says:

    Welcome back to the crazy Vortex Bruce…

    Here we go….

    Remember all the abuse/lies and ridicule directed at me over questioning the TBAR money being random, bank bands/straps vs rubber bands.. Himmelsbach confirmed straps of 100 bills, straps held together with rubber bands.

    Ralph Himmelsbach “There were 10,000 twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of 100 bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands.”

    at 6:35 of video…

    Take away..
    Ransom money was bank strapped in 100’s, not randomized (packets).
    Packets were held together with rubber bands.
    If the money was randomized/rubber banded at bank it must have been the number of packets per bundle NOT individual packet counts. Larry Carr was 100% wrong or being deceptive.
    Tina also claimed bank bands..

    Inference..
    The money was packets of strapped 100x$20 bills held in a single rubber banded bundle.

    TBAR = 3 strapped packets of 100 bills = $6000 total. Rubber banded together.

    That means TBAR money landed as a single bundle (3 packets) and did not have to land in a bag or container though still possible. The potential means by which the TBAR money arrived is not restricted to a container as virtually everyone has assumed.

    The money details may have been something the FBI was holding back…

    • Regina says:

      Small world! Just talked to Himm today also. He cant remember ever talking to you!

    • Poster67 says:

      FLYJACK with capitol letters indicating superiority – this is quite simple. We found the video. Your mistake is your false interpretation of what Himmelsbach means by the word “strap”. Your problem is a language issue – you dont speak or understand English or you are intentionally confusing words to get what you want! H says: “There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands … ” Now substitute the word bundle for the word “strap” because by “strap” H means bundle. The result is: “There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in bundles of a hundred bills to a bundle and individual bundles held together with rubber bands.” H is saying the same thing Larry Carr said. So you can now stop your game with language, and stop telling us what H meant, what the facts were. The GOVERNMENT IS NOW OPEN so you services are no longer needed. Thank you for your consideration!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Wrong, Larry Carr claimed the “bundles” were random counts because he was told the “bundles” were randomized and rubber banded. Carr incorrectly deduced that the TBAR “packets” were made random counts and not in 100’s. Carr clearly stated this error. H clearly stated 100 bills per STRAP. That means Carr was wrong and the Bank had randomized the bundle size, number of packets/straps per rubber banded bundle (not the individual packet/straps of 100 bills).

        If the Bank randomized and rubber banded the “bundles” and the packets/straps were in 100’s (per H) then they could not have been referring to the individual packet/straps but only could have been referring to the bundles, groups of packets/straps. This is simple logic. Larry Carr was wrong.

        Tina claimed Bank Bands.. Ingram’s found rubber band frags.. The Bank told the FBI $2000 per packet and bank band strapped.
        H’s statement backs it all up.

        Packets/Straps of 100 bills rubber banded into random bundles of perhaps 3,4 or 5 packets/straps per bundle.

        Packets, or straps are not the same as bundles. Carr was wrong, misunderstood, made assumptions or was deceptive.

        What does it mean… It doesn’t point to any specific suspect or specific means of delivery. If the 3 TBAR packets were separate being found together indicates they must have been placed or arrived in a container (bag or overcoat) as almost everyone assumes. However, if they arrived rubber banded as a single bundle that explains their proximity and expands the means by which they could have arrived. Basically, the dominant narrative is false and H confirmed it..

        If anyone wants to maintain it, they are certainly entitled to.

  128. brucesmith49 says:

    I like your thinking Fly. Concise, plausible, and interesting – and USEFUL!

    Thanks for the welcome back.

    • Regina says:

      Not worth replying to – we see FLYCRAP is now runjing your site for you – the wackos now all inthe same nest – obscurity suits you all. ENJOY!

      • FLYJACK says:

        “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I am not sure about the universe.”

  129. brucesmith49 says:

    Well, welcome to the party, Regina – that is unless you’re just passing through and dumping stink bombs as you slide on by….

    If you are sticking around, Regina, why don’t you tell us why you were talking to Himms and the nature of your conversation.

    Along those lines, the BBC would like to talk with Jerry Thomas, but no one seems to have his current contact info. Can anyone help?

  130. Poster67 says:

    You bring up stupidity now – please note that your video you cite as proof according to Himmelsbach is empty! Did you intend to post an empty nonexistent video as proof? Why do you give us a blank space with no url or video in the blank space? So which stupidity are you talking about? Ours or yours? Please provide a link to the video you forgot to post!

    • FLYJACK says:

      Oops. Gotta love irony.. browser settings?? check.

      Who is stupid now.

      I have no problem with respectful disagreements, but you’ve got issues.

  131. Poster67 says:

    WRONGJACK! Carr didn’t assume or deduce or speculate anything. Carr actually found and talked to the bank guy who had personally prepared the money for delivery to Cooper. Carr is merely repeating what the bank guy said he did! And you? Who have you talked to? You use H’s words but have you talked to H about what he meant? You keep saying Tina said and meant this vs that. And to top this off you resort to attacking everyone you disagree with! Try blowing into a paper bag instead of dictating Cooper myth.

    • FLYJACK says:

      You still sticking to that narrative… How many times does it have to be pointed out to you..

      Carr stated the TBAR money was not in 100’s but each was random, H clearly stated it was in straps of 100’s then rubber banded.

      If they were already in 100’s why would the bank randomize and rubber band them when H said 100’s? they wouldn’t, it makes no sense. The Bank must have randomized and rubber banded the bundles, groups of packets/straps.

      You stated they are saying the same thing, It is absolutely clear they are NOT.

      I don’t have the patience for this level of intellectual dishonesty or ignorance.

  132. Poster67 says:

    I don’t have the patience for this level of intellectual dishonesty or ignorance.!

    Oh good. See ya !

    • FLYJACK says:

      You have demonstrated emotional arguments not rational ones. Besides your bizarre threat perception and aversion to capital letters your position statement defines irony. Namely, If you change H’s words then they (Carr) are saying the same thing.. Funny, it still isn’t true. The conflict is clear, present and crucial to the issue.

      This is the nature of the Vortex, it consumes the rational and elevates the emotional.. like confirmation bias or Marxism…

      • Peg says:

        H had no involvement in the money given to Cooper. H made a lot of wrong statements. You haven’t shown any reason to believe H even knew what he was talking about using words like “straps” etc. It’s just your opinion. It’s obvious you have an ego problem. Your attacks against others is well known. It’s the reason you were kicked off the other site. That is not reassuring when it comes to you interpreting anything!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Same old lies, innuendo and Ad hominem subverting legitimate discussion, that is why I left Shutter’s toxic forum.

  133. KissMySister! says:

    “Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, on this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives, that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

  134. regroeg says:

    The Midwest freeze is dulling my sensitivity a bit and I apologize for all of the cruel, incendiary comments directed to FLYJACK. Actually, I love FLYJACK. I admit to being unusually envious of his work. I just hate nice guys. For the Big Chill, I’ve opened a can of pork and beans and this will allow a steady flow of warm current under the blankets tonight. What the hell. My students can’t stand me and even the dog feels better without my company. I’m just a crazy old codger, as Jo would say. Truth is, I’m caught up in the Cooper Vortex like all you other crazy bastards. But this is my only chance to live vicariously, with poison pen, and angry fingers. Sincerely,
    Pocahontas, Poster67, Regina, Marla…..etc. etc…..

    • Gypsy23 says:

      By george, I think you got it!

      • NOFLYZONE says:

        What? Peg too? Jerry likes to use women’s names to hide behind. FLYJACK knows this. Cold out there, Jerry? Try two cans of pork and beans. More fire power under the covers. You’ll be tootin in class, telling your community college kiddies to analyize btu
        out of the can and into the atmosphere.

  135. FLYJACK says:

    I’ve identified a CIA agent who worked with Hahneman, described him as very intelligent.

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Is he as smart as regroeg? does he also eat pork and beans to stay warm under the blankets?

    • FLYJACK says:

      Strange coincidence,, William Hahneman, the brother of Frederick William (both have been referred to as William at times) is listed on an international flight manifest with one of the prominent members of the “Flying Tigers”.. he later flew in South Asia, both were listed as civilian passengers at the time.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        FLY, did the Flying Tigers use 727s in SE Asia routes?

      • FLYJACK says:

        The Flying Tigers (WW2) were the precursor to Air America…

        It may be just a coincidence that they were on the same flight.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        But did FT use the 727?

      • FLYJACK says:

        No, FT AVG disbanded after WW2. The leader formed CAT which became Air America. Many original Flying Tigers worked as civilian contractors in South East Asia, some remained military. However, the FT person I am looking at was a chief mechanic and became a civilian after FT AVG but returned to South East Asia as a “civilian” pilot.

        There was a Flying Tiger Airline formed by 10 former FT pilots which obtained 727’s but they were much later. That is separate.. the FT guy on the manifest wasn’t involved.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        Thanks, FLY.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        FLYJACK, good work. Did the Flying Tigers transport troops or military supplies to Vietnam in the 1960’s?

  136. FLYJACK says:

    Tom Kaye asked about “Barium Chloride” use…

    Pyrotechnics… It is used for the colour green in flares, tracers and fireworks..

    But why on a cheap tie? and so saturated?

    Hand held sparklers use a pyrotechnic paste, there were many different formulas but many of the tie particles match ingredients that I have found.

    Some ingredients used in Sparklers.. (not complete)
    Iron Cobalt Potassium Barium Cadmium Lead Zinc Calcium Nickel Copper
    Lithium Boron Sodium Magnesium Aluminum Titanium Strontium Silver Indium Thallium

    Used in Pyrotechnics
    Yttrium (red) Silicon Phosphorus

    Was Cooper celebrating the 4th of July with a hand held sparkler? Asian sparklers if Cooper was in Vietnam at the time?

    That narrows it down to millions of people.

    • FLYJACK says:

      From Kaye’s site…

      Silicon Spheres

      Near-perfect spheres of silicon were found. Spherical particles such as these are normally formed by molten material falling through the air. These could be from the match residue but their exact source remains unidentified.

      • FLYJACK says:

        also Zirconium and Antimony…

        Vintage green sparkler.. How popular were these things in the 60’s…

      • TED says:

        Eric Ulis brings lots of logic and common sense to the db cooper case. Much more than guys like Tom Kaye and Georger who try and impose with alleged degrees that they may or may not even have.

  137. brucesmith49 says:

    Ted, I am not happy with you disparaging Tom Kaye and Georger’s credentials. Both are earnest researchers, and have contributed significantly to the Norjak investigation. Yes, Georger often acts like an asshole, but by his own acknowledgement, he is an adorable asshole. I accept his self-criticism. I suggest you do as well.

    • TED says:

      An asshole is an asshole is an asshole. No disparagement, Bruce. It’s all about FACTS.

    • EU says:

      I am much more pleased and impressed with the fact that someone actually appreciates common sense and logic. Too often the argument settles around claims with no veracity. Additionally, there is often conflicting data. However, applying logic to the known facts can help cut through the fog and enables us to put some of these pieces together.

      There will always be those who resist and enjoy the role of obstructionist. In the football world they’re called “Monday morning quarterbacks.” In the political world they’re called “talking heads.” In the Cooper world they’re called “snipers” by me. In other words, people who do little more than sit on the sidelines and take shots at the work of others who are attempting to understand and make progress.

      • TED says:

        You said it all, Eric. I always get a kick out of the Tina Bar experts. Half or more never stepped foot at TB, and wouldn’t know how to get there. Shall I name names?……nah, we all know who they are.

      • RichG says:

        Will the D.B. Cooper Conference be an annual event? Is there one for 2019?

      • brucesmith49 says:

        Yes. The 2019 DB Cooper Conference will be held November 30, at a site in Portland yet to be determined, but very possibly the same place that the 2018 conference was held. This is according to the most recent statements and postings by Eric Ulis, who was the 2018 conference organizer. Eric has also said that he would like to see the conference become an annual event. I think it will be, and I support Eric mightily in his endeavors.

        That said,, the interest in DB Cooper, and in Cooper gatherings, has grown exponentially. At least three other researchers, including RMB and Bryan Woodruff of Ariel Tavern fame, have announced they are planning an event. In addition, Rob Bertrand of Escape Adventures NW in Vancouver, WA is continuing his DB Cooper Escape Room, and is looking to expand that venture.

        Further, there are at least three docus on Cooper in the works, with at least one being a multi-hour project.

  138. FLYJACK says:

    More information consistent with the TBAR one bundle idea.. with multiple packets/straps. Carr is the only contradiction and he got the size of the “packets” completely wrong. Also, Agent Pringle claimed there is info about the money only known to the hijacker.. the specific wrapping/packaging. So, Carr may have misunderstood or have been intentionally misleading.

    https://archive.org/details/The_Times_News_Idaho_Newspaper_1980_02_15

    VANCOUVER. Wash. (UPl) – Only one money bundle from the $200,000 hijack ransom given master criminal D.B. Cooper eight years ago has been found, the FBI said Thursday.

    “Its’ all from one bundle.” said John Pringle, assistant special agent in charge of the Seattle FBI office.
    “We found more bits and pieces, nothing more.” Cooper had been given “several” bundles of money, the agent said.
    He declined to say how many, adding that “There is certain information known only to us and the hijacker.”
    Cooper, whose real identity has never been learned, literally dropped out of sight on Thanksgiving Eve, 1971, when he became the first man oin history to hijack a jetliner for money. After collecting his loot — big bungles of money wrapped in a package six inches high, one foot across and about 1 1/2 feet long — he stuffed it in a bag tied to his waist and parachuted out the back door of the Boeing 727 into the rugged area between Seattle and Portland.

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Forget about Blevins holding a Cooper symposium in 2019. I heard that Anna Stephen’s from Minnow Films in London is going to sue Blevins and Adventure Books for sending her on a wild goose chase over the Ken Christianson story. Turns out that Blevins is so desperate to peddle his fake story that Stephen’s caught him in multiple lies which cost Minnow Films lots of money. Blevins is well known in the Cooper world as one of THE biggest liars. All Ms. Stephen’s had to do was to contact Dave Brown, aka Shutter, to get the truth on Blevins. Anyway, Ms. Stephen’s is being apprised of Blevin’s yarns and the suit should be filed soon. Stay tuned.

  139. shutter45 says:

    If this is true about Blevins then Beaux Carson is probably not far behind Minnow Films. he’s supposedly the one who is part of the “production” company making the film about Kenny, or should I say the “possibility” one that appears to have closed years ago!!

    I’ve been getting emails about Roberts behavior for about a month now. people are tired of him “name dropping” when he really doesn’t know them.

    Robert has been on a mission to discredit me, Bruce, my forum, this site etc. it appears to all be backfiring on him. what a shock lol. people are getting tired of his drama and speaking out. the people I’ve had contact with are extremely tired of his rants.

    You would think since he always claims people talk about him that he would go away. that doesn’t seem to be the case. it doesn’t matter if he’s in the past or not. he’s working overtime in the background (nite and day) pounding away at the keys. it appears he has mental issues that need attention. a normal person wouldn’t go to these extremes.

    Get some help Robert. seriously.

  140. RichG says:

    The stairs on the 727 are an important clue. How did he know how to use those? When the plane landed and took off, how were the stairs lowered and raised? Was it from the cockpit by the pilots or someone on the ground crew?

    • Eric Ulis says:

      The 727 airstairs are an important clue.

      In fact, Cooper did not know how to deploy the airstairs. Tina Mucklow even commented that it struck her that this was the only aspect of the 727 that Cooper seemed to lack knowledge about. That is to say, he apparently didn’t realize that they were deployed by way of pulling a lever located beyond the bulkhead door near the top of the airstairs.

      However, Cooper was aware of the fact that the airstairs could be deployed during flight (no squat switch) and that the airplane could fly safely with them deployed. The pilots and Northwest’s Minneapolis Flight Operations Center weren’t even aware of this…they had to contact Boeing to determine whether this was feasible.

      Good observation and question.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        To what aspect goes to this clue, Eric? What does it mean? That DBC did not work for Boeing and did not know the 727 as should a Boeing employee who would vigorously understand all components of the aircraft he would be hijacking?

      • Eric Ulis says:

        Gypsy23, it’s important inasmuch as it demonstrates that Cooper had detailed–not easily attainable–knowledge about the 727. This certainly implies a Boeing connection. That said, it is not required that he knows everything without flaw about the 727. In the case of Sheridan Peterson he hadn’t worked for Boeing for 7 years at the time of the skyjacking. Certainly he cannot be expected to retain everything that he came across during his tenure.

      • Gerta-lou says:

        [That is to say, he apparently didn’t realize that they were deployed by way of pulling a lever located beyond the bulkhead door near the top of the airstairs.]

        Im not interested in your explanations – Cooper explained it himself! He said he thought it could be done from the cockpit so the model in HIS mind was wrong.

        [However, Cooper was aware of the fact that the airstairs could be deployed during flight (no squat switch) and that the airplane could fly safely with them deployed. The pilots and Northwest’s Minneapolis Flight Operations Center weren’t even aware of this…they had to contact Boeing to determine whether this was feasible]

        What passage do you base that on? Bring us your EVIDENCE not your opinions.

      • brucesmith49 says:

        These statements are generally supported by testimony in FBI agent Ralph Himmelbach’s book, NORJAK. Other treatises also provide corroboration, such as Geoffrey Gray’s SKYJACK. Have you read these? I highly recommend them.

      • RichG says:

        As long as the airplane was de-pressurized, why could it not fly with the stairs down? It flew with the landing gear down. The 727 had been flying since the early 60’s. Was there no way for him to learn about it or maybe overhear a remark? What if he knew very little about the 727, but knew about planes in general, like maybe a mechanic?

      • Eric Ulis says:

        Greta-lou, my statements are based upon the evidence per the FBI files. Cooper either was familiar with the 727 (15 degree flaps, airstairs can be deployed in-flight, location of oxygen bottles, 727 refueling time, etc.) or he happened to guess correctly.

        RichG, the primary issues related to the airstairs center around two facts that weren’t at all obvious. First, that the airstairs weren’t locked in some manner once airborne. Second, that the airstairs wouldn’t act as a big flap that at-speed would lift the back of the jet upward thereby forcing the nose of the jet down ultimately leading to a crash.

    • FLYJACK says:

      “G”erta-lou?

      but Cooper didn’t explain it… FBI 302’s are not facts. They are witness recall interviews summarized by an FBI agent. They are barley one step better than hearsay. FBI 302’s are notorious for being inaccurate or misleading and that is why many contradictions exist in the NORJAK case and we endlessly argue their meaning. For example, Cooper did NOT initially ask for rear airstairs down per cockpit transcripts, though everyone has run with that as it is stated in the 302’s.. Granted the 302’s are all we have…

      We can assume he did have aviation experience/knowledge and he did not have specific 727 knowledge regarding the rear airstair operation.

      One point I have been tossing around,, in one 302 per Tina he asked for “gear down” in another he did not.

      Did he actually ask for “gear down”? or was it misinterpreted and passed to pilots.. if it were not for the gear down the plane could have made it to Mexico..

      If he did ask for “gear down” why, only to keep airspeed down, possible but unlikely? perhaps he thought (incorrectly) the rear airstair may have been locked/inactive with gear up. Perhaps he misunderstood the “squat switch” operation.

      He may have assumed that the same landing gear hydraulic pressure (neutralized up) also pressurized the aft airstairs hydraulics,, though research suggests that is not the case for the 727.

      Cooper may have had experience with an earlier plane,,, for example the C-135 had an emergency floor hatch for the crew to parachute out…

      Cooper did not have to work for Boeing or have inside info to come up with this caper, it may have just been a combination of his aviation experience/knowledge and the logical evolution of hijackings for ransom prior to NORJAK. A few weeks before NORJAK Paul Cini tried a ransom parachute hijacking but was knocked out by crew. It wasn’t a 727 but he had no aviation experience. The evolution to use of a 727 was a logical progression.

      BTW, Paul CIni was a Canadian but was in the US military and had relatives in NJ..

      • RichG says:

        I thought Cini was in the Canadian military. How do you know he was in the US military? Were the relatives in NJ named Cini? How were they connected to him? Cousins?

      • FLYJACK says:

        RichG,

        Cini was 100% in the US Military..

        I tried to find his relatives in NJ but couldn’t. Cini is still alive in Alberta and his phone is listed in case a real reporter wanted to call him.

        https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/482524451/

        “This, he convinced the crew, was a bomb that would explode if the two wires held gingerly much of the time by Mary Dohey touched.”

        “When he received his immigration papers in 1964, he moved in with relatives in New Jersey and went to work cleaning rollers in a printing shop. But his draft notice soon came and he scooted back to Calgary. There, he got a truck-driving job and fell in with a gang of car thieves. They paid him to deliver stolen cars and indulge his passion for driving the sleek, expensive models his father had always helped him buy. But after one such delivery there was an argument over Cini’s fee. So instead of handing over the car, he changed the serial numbers and traded it in on a new model. He botched the job, however, and when he heard the police were on his track he ran back to the U.S. In a pub in Spokane he got drinking with an army sergeant who persuaded him he could join up without going to Vietnam. Cini took the oath (“I was under the influence”) and found himself in a boot camp an infantryman who hated guns. “The noise bothered me I was scared to death.” He escaped the guns at his next base by qualifying for the communications corps. But he froze with fear halfway up his first telephone pole. By now, however, he was carrying vodka in his water canteen and he managed to forget his terror of heights long enough to volunteer for the Green Berets because he wanted to stay with some pals who were joining the crack parachute regiment. To his secret relief, a hearing impairment disqualified him. Convinced now that he didn’t belong in the army, Cini tried to talk his way out, arguing that he hadn’t been sober when he signed up. When that didn’t work, he stole a car and drove to the Canadian border.”

  141. Post removed by Executive Decision.

    -BAS, 2. 16. 19

    • TED says:

      Good job on removing that liar, Bruce. Anna Stephen’s knows he’s the venom magnet on the Cooper case and she is being apprised accordingly.

      • Tom at the Bureau says:

        This revelation about Blevins and Adventure Books will probably cause Minnow Films to go a different direction, now that they all know about Blevins. Good job guarding the gate, Bruce.

  142. Post removed by Executive Decision.

  143. RichG says:

    Ted, do you and Blevins have bad blood? Blevins must have a history with the group. Was there one specific incident or many? I read through some posts on his Quora site and did not see anything real bad. He had a good summary of why Walter Reca and Sheridan Peterson definitely can’t be D.B. Cooper. Does he upset people by criticizing their suspect?

  144. brucesmith49 says:

    RichG, you must be new to Cooper World. The issue with RMB is not Christiansen. Rather, it is with RMB’s behavior. It can be, at times unacceptable, such as frequent threats of law suits, public issuance of character assassinations and back-stabbing, speaking untruths, threats of physical assault, unwanted and dangerous in-person visits to one’s home in the night, unfounded public accusations, and the like. In short, I find RMB dangerous and untrustworthy. I think many Cooper researchers have come to the same conclusion regarding RMB.

    To prove this, I’ll forward you all of the emails and statements that RMB is surely to send my way.

  145. shutter45 says:

    No bad blood. just a lingering blood blister.

    Mr. Blevins is mentally challenged. no sane person would do what he does for as long as he’s been doing this..

    Mr. Blevins loves to criticize but can’t handle it coming his way. for years he begged us to look at his evidence, so we did and we found problem after problem. that’s when it all began. you become entangled in endless comments back and forth with him.

    I started a forum back in 2014 and Robert learned he wouldn’t be allowed on the forum. so, he joined under a false name to stir up sh#t. I banned him permanently and he has been stalking me ever since. he would follow me around on You Tube as well. I had to ban him from my channels.

    The Ariel store closed that had a yearly Cooper event and the owners son took over but basically has to reconstruct the old building, new licenses etc. Robert decided to get involved but only to use it as a platform to get back at me and my forum. he would fill up the Facebook Ariel page meant for news about rebuilding to post comment after comment about me and members of my forum. the owner ended up tossing him out of the town. ban number two.

    Then Mr. Blevins opens his own forum to yet again use it as a tool against all of us, including Bruce. he was shutdown multiple times for his behavior on his own forum 🙂

    He sends email after email until one has to block him from that avenue as well. he stays up till the sun comes up pounding away on the keyboard.

    His latest hate movement is tattle tailing to any media that wants to cover DB Cooper. some have contacted me about his behavior. he also likes to drop names as if he knows the person so he feels important or “in the groove”

    Eric Ulis decided to hold a DB Cooper conference last November and once Mr. Blevins found out he wasn’t invited sent a threatening letter to the country club causing us to relocate to another place. ever since the conference he’s been in the background pounding away telling everyone how it should of been done. he lied for years telling everyone he “filled up the theater” everytime he had an event. he forgot about that and posted on his forum years later that only about 50 people would show up 🙂

    He will preach about how much he hates liars while half of what he says is deceptive. he is a very hateful, angry, manipulative, spiteful, old man. he does all of this then turns around asking us to join up with him lmao.

    His biggest rant was people talking about him. that ship left long ago and yet he’s still here hating away…

    I on scratched the surface of Mr. Blevins. I would need another page to continue with more.

    This should give you a pretty good idea…

  146. shutter45 says:

    You don’t belong here Robert! try being a man and accept what you have done all by yourself. you need help, mental help.

  147. shutter45 says:

    Robert, you have been banned from this site! that once again is YOUR fault! nobody else’s. that doesn’t give anyone a reason not to talk about them. your actions tell it all.

    NO, I don’t support anything attached to you. don’t care if it holds 20,000 seats. no, this is the first I’ve heard of your little venture so stop implying you know or think I knew about it. I don’t follow garbage days, sorry.

  148. shutter45 says:

    I DON’T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU……DO….YOU…UNDER…STAND?

    You are nothing but drama and trouble. go peddle your stuff else where. perhaps somewhere you are not BANNED….

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      RichG: see what we mean? Now that the cat’s out of the bag for the umpteenth time, Mr. Blevins will be around for the next six months, or until Bruce terminates him again. You shouldn’t have asked.

  149. shutter45 says:

    Robert, listen and listen good! nobody emailed me about this event. I haven’t been involved for some time now. only recently have I returned. what the hell would giving prizes away have to do with my decision?

    It’s sounds like something that isn’t even really your gig. as time goes by I’m sure you will annoy the hell out of them and mess things up anyway.

    As I mentioned before. I don’t want anything to do with your name attached. do you understand? you have been doing nothing but bad mouthing all of us to everyone you can find. media, Facebook, You Tube etc. then you want to join up, seriously? you toss around law suits, threaten people. screw you pal. got it!!!!

    I just spoke with Eric Ulis on the phone and he said he didn’t receive anything. who you emailed is only known to you. Eric said he is still moving forward with his yearly conference. it’s not about numbers or who has the biggest gig. it’s always a competition with you. I will back Eric all day long.

    You haven’t earned any respect since 2014. that’s what it’s about with me, not how many people I can get in one shot! I have a heavy work load at this present time and not much room for Cooper. it’s not my life as it is with you.

    In closing….I do not wish to be involved in anything you are…are we clear? it has zip to do with prizes, where in the hell is your mind dude?

  150. shutter45 says:

    Sorry, Bruce, guys….I’m sure he gets the message. you can delete all this crap…

  151. shutter45 says:

    Robert, you are blocked on every avenue with me. I don’t care what you think. I’ve told you what I think and if you don’t like it, tough sh#t.

    I just spoke with him and he says the opposite….not 10 minutes ago..that’s all I can tell you…

    Robert, I don’t care what it’s about…I’m not for sale dude.

    I think you need to respect the ban that has been placed on you for some time now. that’s what I truly think!

  152. shutter45 says:

    You are here giving me a hard time, who do you think you are fooling. it’s just like the movie deal. you asked and asked and asked. just go away!

    You are full of negativity dude. it’s how you survive. you have been on a mission for years trying to discredit a lot of us. my guess is you probably told them you can get everyone on board. just like you did with the movie deal.

    Deleted comments on WordPress…never seen them?. won’t take long before they all return. just another stunt you always pull. nothing new…

    It has everything to do with the ban. your not suppose to be here. do you not fully understand that?

  153. shutter45 says:

    I emailed Eric after our phone conversation. he says the following…

    “He wanted me to shut down CooperCon and be a part of his thing. I told him my plans are to proceed with CooperCon.”

    That doesn’t sound much like an invite. you tried to get him to shutdown vs coexist.

  154. shutter45 says:

    Robert, the podcast years ago was going to be the biggest thing. the movie was going to be the biggest thing. the Ariel two day thingy was going to be the biggest thing etc. etc. etc. all duds.

    You have Jim contact me.

  155. shutter45 says:

    your credibility is getting in the way Robert. that’s the whole problem. I don’t want anything to do with you………………..

  156. shutter45 says:

    I had nothing to do with them going against you on your film and you blamed it all on me..screw you again, pal!!!!!!!!

  157. brucesmith49 says:

    This conversation is finished. Any one wishing to correspond with RMB will have to do it on another forum, or use private emails.

    Goodnight, gentlemen. I had a tooth pulled today, and I have no more patience for this kind of conversation. RMB is banned from the Mountain News due to bad behavior. I had to scrub 13 unwanted posts from RMB this evening, and I’m done. End of story.

    • MNastt says:

      Just 13 scrubbings, Bruce? Old Blev is slowing down. He came to your home uninvited, but when you went to HIS home he blew a fuse. What a hypocrite. Did you ever confirm that the old lady who answered his door in Auburn, WA was his wife Gayla?
      The entire Robert Blevins drama gets down to this: Blevins needs attention even though his case is a 100% failure. FACTS: Lyle Christianson dreamed-up the plot after his brother Ken stated on his death bed, “I have a secret that I can’t tell you.” That’s it. No confession whatsoever. And the secret was no secret at all. Ken Christianson, a homosexual man, … How does that make him DB Cooper? Because Ken was a flight attendant for Northwest Airlines. Lyle created the entire story to sell to a Hollywood producer. It did not sell. Lyle retracted his pursuit when aggressively pushed by an experienced radio talk show host. Robert Blevins has fictionalized everything else about Ken Christianson.
      He has produced NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. A remarkable run of over 10 years by one of the most hated and deceitful persons ever involved in the case. Robert is a charlatan of great proportions and a marketer of complete fabrication and dishonesty. The End.

      Editor’s Note: part of this message was removed due to unsubstantiated allegations.

  158. FLYJACK says:

    Enough of the personal drama and BS… back to NORJAK.

    The FBI have posted a new file #34, a big one 460 pages,, WOOHOO

    https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/d.b.-cooper-part-34-of-34/view

  159. RichG says:

    Can anybody suggest books or shows that give a good synopsis of the case without forcing a specific suspect on you like Case Closed did 2 weeks ago?

  160. brucesmith49 says:

    RichG, Yes, there are several good books on DB Cooper that you might find useful.

    1. “DB Cooper and the FBI – A Case Study of America’s Only Unsolved Skyjacking,” by yours truly, at Amazon. $25. 2015

    2. SKYJACK, by Geoffrey Gray. 2011.

    3. NORJAK, The Investigation of DB Cooper, by Ralph Himmelsbach and Tom Worcester. 1986

    4. DB Cooper – Dead or Alive?, by Richard Tosaw. 1985

  161. brucesmith49 says:

    Yes, Darren’s Cooper Vortex Podcast is excellent. Also, the Mountain News-WA has lots of Cooper material – check the category section – and it’s free. There, you’ll find links to plenty of DB Cooper YouTube clips. I have four or five posted – and they’re free.

  162. RichG says:

    Two of those books are on Kindle. I’ll order those. Two are out of print I think. I’ll take a look at the Mountain News and listen to the Cooper Vortex podcast. That should be enough to keep me busy for a few days. Thank you.

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Bruce Smith’s book is very good because it examines the most current matters about the case. Mnasst’s post above really nails it about Blevins. He has not produced one shred of direct evidence to prove Ken Christianson was DB Cooper. And his so-called circumstantial evidence is not believable at all. I would say KC is the least viable suspect of the major ones propounded.
      Contradictions everywhere and made-up circumstances. His case is so weak
      that it should have been passed over. Goes to show that one psychotic liar can influence many minds.

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Bruce Smith’s book is very good because it examines the most current matters about the case. Mnasst’s post above really nails it about Blevins. He has not produced one shred of direct evidence to prove Ken Christianson was DB Cooper. And his so-called circumstantial evidence is not believable at all. I would say KC is the least viable suspect of the major ones propounded.
      Contradictions everywhere and made-up circumstances. His case is so weak
      that it should have been passed over. Goes to show that one psychotic liar can influence many minds.

  163. Johnnie Greene says:

    We all wish Bruce Smith well as he prepares for his big documentary shoot with Minnow Films. Bruce has no suspect he supports, so his lengthy interview will be a breath of fresh air and objectivity. Hopefully, Bruce will discuss which suspects are NOT DB Cooper, based on the absurdity of the suspects in question and their highly disregarded promoters. We all know who THAT is. Good luck, Bruce and make a load of money on this documentary and sell a lot of books. We are pushing for you. Anna and her gang at Minnow Films read the Mountain News as I’ve learned.

  164. brucesmith49 says:

    For my money, I would say that Jo Weber is the DB Cooper Promoter Par Excellence. Plus, her style of needling, persistence, and full-frontal attacks is the Most Effective Approach in Cooper World for making contact with NORJAK principals. How she got a hold of Billy Waugh before Snowmman and I did, continues to amaze me to this day. And to “camp out on the phone” with Jane Dormuth (Tina’s sister), according to her husband Lee, the night before I showed up “unexpectedly” is also a testament to Jo’s indomitable spirit, and perhaps her crass social manners as well.

  165. Johnnie Greene says:

    That’s hardly the person we were thinking of, Bruce. Around here, we actually LIKE Jo Weber.

    • Marla says:

      Bruce, be sure to tell Anna Stephens that
      Robert Blevins has been lying and creating falsehoods about the Cooper case and Ken Christianson since about 2009. Then, show her the evidence you’ve collected. Good luck with your Minnow Films shoot.

  166. RichG says:

    I’ve been reading about suspects and have a couple of questions. 1. Is it true that Sheridan Petersen is one of only three people to have his DNA tested by the FBI? 2. Where can I find more information on Melvin Wilson? He disappeared and he had contacts through his counterfeiting that maybe could have helped him launder the money.

    • Eric Ulis says:

      Importantly, not only is Sheridan one of only three suspects whose DNA was compared to Cooper’s, also:

      1) He is the only suspect who the FBI sought a DNA sample from (Duane and LD comparisons are considered the by-product of a lot of media attention and public pressure).

      2) He is the only suspect that the FBI has not publicly cleared by virtue of the DNA comparison.

      3) I have requested info regarding Sheridan’s DNA comparison via the FBI Field office in Seattle and was rejected–again even though they had already established a precedent regarding public disclosure with Duane and LD.

      4) I attempted to obtain results through the Freedom of Information Act and was rejected.

      5) I reached out to Sheridan and asked him to request his own DNA comparison results from the FBI and stated if it shows no match I would publish that info and reflect that in my report” DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson”–of course, crickets from Sheridan regarding this too.

      Make of it what you will. It doesn’t add up if the man is innocent.

      • RichG says:

        Do people know for sure that the FBI did not check anyone else’s DNA? How would the public know if someone had their DNA tested if that person did not say something? The person may not have even known their DNA was tested. When was the DNA test on Sheridan Peterson? Was it recent and still being processed, or was it a while ago?

  167. brucesmith49 says:

    Yes, RichG, there are only three people that are publicly known to have their DNA tested. Sheridan, Duane, and Uncle LD. The Feds said they were going to test Barb Dayton, as well, but never confirmed their efforts with the Formans. Regardless, they lost all of the evidence that Ron and Pat gave them, too!

    Galen says that he and the Gossett family have supplied the FBI with DNA samples of Wolfie, but again, no confirming response from the Bureau.

    Lisa Lepsey has given her father, Richard’s, DNA to the feds, as well as Vicki Wilson on Mel. Again, no confirming responses.

    As for Kenny C, who knows? Or rather, who cares. And the 1,000 other suspects and confessees? Gawd Knows….

    As for Mel Wilson, Vicki has done a TV show on her father, plus has written about him and her search for the truth. Posts at the DZ and DBC Forum. Good luck with the search functions at those places.

    Give me a call, or email if you’d like a more comprehensive view of the subject. BTW: Georger is an excellent researcher on the nitty-gritty of DNA testing. He’s old school and not quite current on touch DNA and the like, but he has a strong fundamental understanding of the science. You can send him a message at the DBC Forum.

  168. Emil says:

    Why dont you morons give it a rest? You are just jealous of Georger.

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Uncle Brucie………………..smile for the camera this weekend. And pick up a nice sweet check $$$$$$.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        Heard that Bruce Smith completed his 7- hour shoot today in Cooper Country. BRAVO! Bruce is a superb spokesman for the case and has a story-telling advantage over almost everyone.

  169. FLYJACK says:

    Yttrium used in production of polyester.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US3523104

  170. brucesmith49 says:

    8 hours with Minnow, Babes. 10 am – 6 pm.

    Thanks for the kudos, Johnnie.

  171. RichG says:

    Is Minnow Films doing a documentary? When will it be available?

  172. brucesmith49 says:

    Yes, they are crafting a full-length documentary on DB Cooper. As for details, they have asked me to keep those tidbits confidential to protect their proprietary interests. But it will be significant and in-depth. Broadcast date is over six-months out. Links will be posted when available.

  173. Terry Battcher says:

    Last night I discovered that the Quest TV channel on local digital channel 11.4 was running a DB Cooper documentary which was promoting the latest darling suspect Duane Weber. I only caught the last 20 minutes of this same program and in that last 20 minutes they managed to trip my bullshit detector several times!

    First and foremost; FBI Norjak FOIA historical files clearly show evidence of a near LeCenter Washington drop zone and from three (3ea) separate sources! So forget the Lewis River bullshit and the wilderness jump bullshit, etc.

    So, I went to YouTube to look for this same “program” and first discovered yet another bullshit documentary “program” titled ‘The Skyjacker That Got Away,’ which has footage’s of Earl Cossey, Larry “Karr” and Tom Kaye giving their half-baked opinions and faulty conclusions. Yet no mentions (no surprise) about the FBI files that contain the taunting documents that show proof that whomever composed them had possession of inside crime scene knowledge!

    Why was Earl Cossey mysteriously bludgeoned to death sometime after this so-called documentary was filmed? I currently have no idea why, and I’ll add that my takeaway is that he wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, but maybe something clued him in after he gave that same interview footage?

    • TED says:

      There is so much intrigue about the peripheral aspects of the Cooper case. Tina Mucklow’s past. Earl Cossey’s death. Ken Christianson’s alleged pedophilia. So, come on Bruce. Did you address these issues? Give us a little hint. Now that you are about to be a famous movie star dude. Do your loyal fans get free tickets to the red carpet rollout?

    • TED says:

      There is so much intrigue about the peripheral aspects of the Cooper case. Tina Mucklow’s past. Earl Cossey’s death. Ken Christianson’s alleged pedophilia. So, come on Bruce. Did you address these issues? Give us a little hint. Now that you are about to be a famous movie star dude. Do your loyal fans get free tickets to the red carpet rollout?

  174. brucesmith49 says:

    Not to be overly snarky, guys, have you read my book? Or gleaned the pages of the Mountain News. I have written extensively on:

    1. Earl Cossey’s death and plausible reasons why someone would want to kill him, and why the murder has still not been solved. There are two Chapters!. We’re coming up on the 6thy anniversary next month, BTW.

    2. How the Nat Geo docu got crafted – 0ne chapter in the book. It’s the aforementioned docu titled: “The Skyjacker Who Got Away,” and was filmed in 2008-2009. Tom Kaye has clearly stated how the Propeller Theory got going, how it got into the docu, and he has offered a compelling rejection of it.

    By The Way: I am not familiar with the documentary evidence that sites DBC’s LZ in LaConner. Please let us know where we can review these pieces. Remember, LaConner is the next town west of Amboy, so it is not too far from the LZ-A of Ariel/Amboy.

    Also, Kenny’s candidacy to be DBC has been gone over enough. As I write in my book, I agree with Larry Carr’s assessment that Kenny’s primary – and sole – qualification to be DB Cooper is that he was a male.

    Regarding Tina, my dear fans, when Minnow was here I professed my LOVE of Tina on camera, and BEGGED her to get in touch. Whether that tidbit gets into the finished docu, or is edited out, that is not my decision – but at least I put it out there.

    Lastly, I am not familiar with any docu that dwells on Duane Weber as DB Cooper. Any links to that broadcast?

  175. brucesmith49 says:

    Yes, I too, see a Red Carpet in my future. Details will be forthcoming on when it rolls and how all those of you who might want to savor those moments with me can do so.

  176. brucesmith49 says:

    Kenny Addendum.

    Minnow and I talked very little about Kenny C. What we did talk about at length was Lyle! Who he is, and why he does what he does. I think the true character of Lyle Christiansen is becoming more fully understood by increasing numbers of people. As Barry O said, “the arc of justice may be long, but it does hold steady.” Or words to that effect.

  177. Terry Battcher says:

    Thanks Bruce, great info.

  178. TED says:

    Yeah, it was great info, Bruce. When Hollywood decides to put the independent newsman who resides at the base of Mt. Rainier into the national spotlight, you will probably be forgetting about the rest of us peons over here. Can’t wait to see your appearance in the doc. Glad you set the record straight about Lyle Christianson. One of the biggest hoaxes in the DB Cooper mystery.

    ps. remember that guy who lived at Spirit Lake near Mt. Saint Helens? He wouldn’t leave when the the mountain blew in 1980. You might end up being like him. Bruce Smith, publisher of the Mountain News, refuses to leave his place as everyone else evacuates the lava flow from Mt. Rainier…….lol

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Good for you in helping to expose Lyle Christianson, Bruce. Phoniest DB Cooper story on the planet, backed by another phoney, Mr. Blevins.

      • Marla says:

        Have to agree with Johnnie. Lyle Christianson’s motive for lying was money$. Mr. Porteous motive for lying was fame. Robert Blevin’s motive for lying is, HE’S A LIAR! Blevins is a clueless old man who goes around threatening people with lawsuits. Pathetic person. We all know that. Georger knows.

    • brucesmith49 says:

      Your email to Minnow, along with Lyle’s should make delightful bookends to this saga.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        The term the British like to use: RUBBISH! That one word sums up the Lyle Christianson fable. As Georger has pointed out in numerous postings in various DB Cooper sites, Lyle Christianson confessed on a live radio show in Spokane, Washington that he made up the entire story because he thought it would sell in Hollywood. THAT was Lyle telling the truth. The rest is all RUBBISH! Show that to Minnow Films.

  179. Terry Battcher says:

    For Bruce (and others too): Quotes:
    Regarding Tina, my dear fans, when Minnow was here I professed my LOVE of Tina on camera, and BEGGED her to get in touch. Whether that tidbit gets into the finished docu, or is edited out, that is not my decision – but at least I put it out there.

    Lastly, I am not familiar with any docu that dwells on Duane Weber as DB Cooper. Any links to that broadcast? ” Unquote.
    Last item, I’ll try to locate the title of this latest Cooper documentary and post it here.

    Perhaps the skyjacker put the fear of God into Tina? The vicious murder of Cossey probably has had a chilling effect on her and other.

    Yes Bruce, I’ll read your book and very soon. BTW, it’s an appropriate hoot that Blevin’s garbage is being edited out here….he really does beg for it.

  180. FLYJACK says:

    There is no doubt that the tie would have been “fingerprinted” and Tom Kaye didn’t report any fingerprint powder on the tie. Logic, some of those particles must have been from fingerprinting.

    Since, “Lycopodium Clavatum” was used as a primary ingredient in fingerprint powder, it is more likely it is from FBI fingerprinting rather than pill coatings.

    1970..
    “Lycopodium-Aluminum 80-20 is a highly effective fingerprint powder compounded from powdered aluminum and lycopodium. The lycopodium, which is a vegetable product, acts as a vehicle and lubricant for the aluminum powder to prevent smearing and loss of detail. This combination may be used with excellent results on any reasonably smooth surface, including glass, metal, wood, plastic, leather, paper and painted surfaces. Very good results have been obtained on leather wallets which, because of their grainy texture, are usually not amenable to dusting with conventional powders.”

  181. brucesmith49 says:

    Thanks, Fly. Interesting information. Good insight, too, on tie residues.

    • Marla says:

      Bruce, you really should ask Tina out for a cocktail. …..you never know. It would sure put a twist into the overall plot.
      Just Marla.

  182. brucesmith49 says:

    Sigh. I’ve pondered doing that, or sending her a Valentine’s Day card, or even a birthday card, but she might use it as physical evidence to get a restraining order. The look on her face when I was there in 2011 was stark and fierce. The girl has serious issues, and I don’t want to be a lightning rod for whatever is fueling the rage.

    Besides, if I actually got a date with Tina, a lot of guys here would be VERY jealous. On the other hand, the many in Cooper World who think I’ve already gone TOO far with Tina might feel they need to defend Tina, etc….

    • Marla says:

      You could offer her free therapy. Buy her a 4th of July card. Dress up as a Catholic Priest and show up at her door. Throw a few 20’s at her.

  183. Terry Battcher says:

    Bruce, if you could get a one on one meeting with Tina and was allowed to ask her anything, can you share with us the list of questions you’d have for her?

    If she has something against you personally, it’s probably been planted there by those that seek to suppress the whole truth about the highly sophisticated Cooper caper. In other words, her polarity against you personally may be altogether merit-less? Wouldn’t it be interesting if she actually lurks this site on a regular basis!(?)

  184. Terry Battcher says:

    I just posted something, but it seems to have disappeared? WTF?

  185. Terry Battcher says:

    Oh, now I see it. WTF?

  186. brucesmith49 says:

    Tina and Me:

    I ‘d want to hear the whole story. But here are some highlights:

    1. How did the money bag get onboard?
    2. What was your interaction with the FBI agent who came onboard? How did he leave?
    3. What was the ruckus about in Row 12?
    4. What was it like being a cloistered nun?
    5. Why 30 years of silence?
    6. Why break the silence by talking with the Eugene Weekly in 2012?
    7. Why appear on the History Channel documentary?
    8. What are you so angry about?
    9. Do you feel you had special abilities to handle DB Cooper?
    10. How do you feel about Bill Rataczak’s profound gratitude and affection towards you?

  187. Terry Battcher says:

    Wow, that’s a lot of questions Bruce, and some that are very pointed. Thank you for sharing all of that. My next two tasks are to get your book and to see if I can find the Eugene weekly interview.

    • brucesmith49 says:

      At the risk of being rude, Terry, it’s aboutfuckingtime…

      …smile.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        Well Bruce, you’re right about that, but I’ve had a lot on my plate these days. My dear mother passed away last Sept and I’m the personal rep of her estate. Plus, I already had a rather large to-do list when I first arrived here. I did search the net for all things Tina and still haven’t found some of the things that you pointed out. It seems to me that I recall you or someone here stating that the UNSUB traumatized her with some outrageous remarks. That might well very explain her behavior vs anything that you did? Except that perhaps she knows the the Cooper caper is one big heavy handed conspiracy, vs a guy like you trying to get at the truth? I suspect that the History Channel is yet another tool of the deep state.

  188. Char says:

    You have cooked your goose I think. You are a Billy goat that keeps butting its head against a tractor wanting to breed with it! Get a life, Mr. Smith. You have said quite enough here to keep the door closed and you think it’s exciting! Every word you write goes to people concerned.

  189. shutter45 says:

    all that lying can get you pretty tiresome.

    The truth? the truth is nobody wants to be associated with you. you were “silenced” due to your behavior. you can’t even respect the rules.

    anything you are involved in will suffer due to, once again, your behavior. nobody wants to be around you Robert. no, I’m not talking about people who still have the wool over there eye’s either. the one’s who really know the lying, manipulative, spiteful, arrogant, disrespectful, hypocrite.

    Try being “truthful” with the word “ban”

    • FLYJACK says:

      “the lying, manipulative, spiteful, arrogant, disrespectful, hypocrite”,, describes Georger perfectly.

      • shutter45 says:

        you don’t have to worry about him anymore. why you keep whining is beyond me…you seem obsessed with him…

      • FLYJACK says:

        You give a platform to continue to lie.. he lies to discredit others and he lies about the Cooper case.

        Everything you claim about Blevins you enable with Georger. Hypocrite. You have even picked up some his slimeball tactics.

  190. shutter45 says:

    Could be Georger…..

  191. brucesmith49 says:

    One must remember that Georger is the self-described “adorable asshole,” whereas RMB is unrelentingly dangerous and toxic.

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      The two might actually get along. They both have agendas. One to advance a suspect by lying about everyone else’s suspect. The other to call out and discredit anyone and everyone who has worked on the case.

  192. shutter45 says:

    Fly, you continue to agitate. much like Blevins. you seem to fall short of moving on. the forum, Georger or anything else is none of your concern anymore, but like Blevins you just keep going and going.

    Georger has plenty of faults. just like the rest of us. you guys seem to use most of your time complaining about others.

    Georger has been researching this case probably the longest. and has an impressive following most don’t have a clue of the people he talks too. he has connected me to many involved in the case over the years that don’t go online. agents for one.

    You don’t like him, that’s fine. I have a different outlook. if you don’t like it, I suggest you stop visiting the forum you bash much like Blevins all the time?

    Have a wonderful evening…..

    • FLYJACK says:

      You really lack self awareness. Georger continues lying about me on your forum and you think I am the one who is obsessed. Leaving your toxic forum was the best thing I ever did for my Cooper research, I should have done it long ago.

      He discredits others to cling to relevance and feed his fragile ego and lack of competence. His 15 minutes of glory were pulling his connections together but now he is irrelevant. He talks a big game but has nothing… no original ideas, nothing but talk.

      His tactic is to outright lie or use innuendo to discredit anything he doesn’t agree with, a form of lying, he is quite good at it to the uninitiated. He is toxic to your forum but since you have adopted the same smear tactics to discredit others you must enjoy hosting a toxic environment. Entirely your choice.

      Georger tries to discredit me with lies on your forum and here anonymously, if he didn’t do that I’d never mention him. He is scum and I have zero respect for him not just for his behaviour toward me but also others. As far as the Cooper case he has become completely irrelevant. Has he ever had an original thought, he seems to use others or trash others.

      But you, I had respect for until you started adopting the Georgerisms.. I thought you were a nice guy, not especially bright but nice enough, however you keep using the Blevins innuendo smear and have demonstrated to be a spiteful, ignorant and immature little child who has forfeited any and all respect due..

      You have one play, smear with the Blevins card, now who is obsessed. Your entire world is consumed by Blevins, he is in your head. You have lost it.

      I don’t think you should get rid of Georger, not at all, you should bring back Meyer and the three of you can continue to stroke each others fragile egos within that toxic elixir of arrogance and ignorance inside that echo chamber of disrespect and animus. Draw in the Cooper newbies and impress them with your bullshit, get your egos stroked until they get their own voice.

      Editor’s Note; his post has been modified due to offensive language.

  193. brucesmith49 says:

    Fly, I know you have received the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune from many sources in Cooper World, but please can you tone down your ire at Georger? Your rants are tough reading, and they hurt my tummy. Thanks.

  194. shutter45 says:

    Just because I reference you as Blevins doesn’t make one obsessed. again, you have a problem with Georger and it’s obsessive. if it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be having this conversation….

    • FLYJACK says:

      Sounds just like Georger… same tone, innuendo and inaccurate statements.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        Is it true, Bruce, that you are going to start a DB Cooper “hook-up” site? Lol!! You might as well, cause there’s a lot of boys and girls out there looking for old Coop and cupid (Coopid). If you do, your new site would make national, maybe international, news. Minnow would have to come back for part2.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        Is it true, Bruce, that you are going to start a DB Cooper “hook-up” site? Lol!! You might as well, cause there’s a lot of boys and girls out there looking for old Coop and cupid (Coopid). If you do, your new site would make national, maybe international, news. Minnow would have to come back for part2.

  195. brucesmith49 says:

    Well, I was hoping that Shutter would start a Dating Thread at the Forum, but if it comes down to it, I’ll Do It Here! As I tell my therapist at every session: “I’m leaving no stone unturned.”

  196. shutter45 says:

    ” try and gain access to people and places where you are not wanted.”
    You wouldn’t know anything about that, would you?

    why the threats now. this is the first time you left the house in a year?

    Didn’t Bruce go to your house (respectable time) to talk about your late night intrusion on his property instead of calling the police?

    Just how much yarn do you own 🙂

    • brucesmith49 says:

      I went to RMB’s place of residence/work in the afternoon to confirm that he had in fact written a letter to the country club originality slated to host the Cooper Con in 2018. I wanted to verify that Robert had indeed threatened to sue those associated with the conference if and when something was said about Kenny Christiansen that RMB did not approve.

      I went to his place because he was not answering his phone, nor was he responding to emails. Yes, I was wearing my Mountain News- WA credentials, the very ones that I wear and present at every press briefing I have ever been.

      Yes, I left when requested by the woman who answered the door. Yes, I believe that RMB called the cops on me because as I was driving away from his place an Auburn PD cruiser was heading towards his place. I didn’t stop to verify if they cop was headed to RMB’s, or if I was just witnessing a coincidence.

      The woman who answered the door bell and asked me to leave did not identify herself. She was a stout woman, about 60 or so, with unkempt hair. Georger later showed me a pix of a woman on the Facebook page of a Ms. Procliv, the name of the woman that RMB says is “his old lady.” The pix I saw and the woman I met, are the same person.

      • shutter45 says:

        Sorry, I thought it was after the late nite checkup the boys did. still had a valid reason for knocking on someone’s door. pretty common thing in AMERICA. especially, when someone doesn’t respond to several attempts from different avenues. I can see him in traffic court arguing with the judge saying the light was blue… 🙂

        Funny how someone takes something valid and will twist it around to look bad.

  197. FLYJACK says:

    Was there a beeper planted by the FBI?

    They don’t admit there was one used but the FBI files document a report of a very faint beeper signal picked up about 40 hours later just upstream of TBAR.

    In the Hahneman docs, the FBI did plant beepers in the chutes, he found them (5.5 months after NORJAK). They state that they have a 24 hour minimum operation and a 15 mile range. << consistent with the NORJAK FBI “beeper signal” report.

    Goerger recently claimed that…

    "Tina said he put the bundle offered her back into the bag. Tina never reported him storing money anywhere other than in the containers he was trying out.“

    This is typical Georger, first part false and second part true. Now he is backtracking.

    IMO, the TBAR money was very likely the same money that Cooper handed to Tina. It is the only documented money that was separated from the group.

    There are several good theories.

    One is Tosaw’s basic theory, a good one, an old one, the Tina money went into his coat pocket then ended up at TBAR. The problem is Tosaw has Cooper landing in the Columbia. Possible but??

    Since Tosaw had some inside knowledge, was he incorporating the "beeper signal” into his theory? Did the FBI plant beepers or not? Larry Carr lied/misled when he said the tech wasn’t available. It was.

    Did Cooper wear the overcoat when he jumped? or, Did the overcoat exit the the plane independently? (Hahneman was dressed identically to Cooper but left his overcoat on the plane)

    If there were beepers did Cooper find one and put it in his coat pocket with the Tina money?

    Did the overcoat fall from the plane into the Columbia with the Tina money? and a beeper?

    Is there another way that the Tina money got to TBAR?

    Georger after 10 years has finally reached out to his sources to clear this Tosaw theory up for everybody… but he has to be sensitive to his sources and “edit” the information, there is too much at stake. Lots of danger for those involved. Careful guys, don’t want to see anybody get hurt, it is just a 50 year old case.

    Finally, the Cooper case will be solved by Georger,, Congratulations, I knew you could accomplish something if you just tried.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Georger,, I thought everyone knew this already.. I don’t recall which FBI Cooper file it is in but the page ID numbers at the bottom are 1809-1810, you should be able to find it.

      “FLYJACK says:
      March 11, 2019 at 10:11 am
      Was there a beeper planted by the FBI?
      They don’t admit there was one used but the FBI files document a report of a very faint beeper signal picked up about 40 hours later just upstream of TBAR.

      Can anyone produce the FOIA document (302) FLYJACK is talking about?

      40 hours later… later than what ? When?”

      • FLYJACK says:

        about 40 hours after it was likely activated… give or take, heard at 3:30 PM 11/26. The Hahneman beeper was good for at least 24 hours, so very faint signal after about 40 is consistent.

  198. Georger says:

    Was there a beeper planted by the FBI?
    They don’t admit there was one used but the FBI files document a report of a very faint beeper signal picked up about 40 hours later just upstream of TBAR.

    PRODUCE THE DOCUMENT!

    • FLYJACK says:

      It is in the FBI docs.. page 1809-1810, I am looking right at the pdf of the two pages. I thought everyone had this..

      What the hell have you guys been doing..

  199. brucesmith49 says:

    This is the first I’m hearing about a beeper or tracking device in NORJAK. Carr said none was used. And Maj Dawson indicated that chaff was not to be inserted into the chutes he was preparing form Cooper. Cossey never talked about trackers, nor did Hayden. Who would put one in? When? Where?

    How does one put a tracking device into a chute without disturbing the folds/pins, etc.?

    377?

    • FLYJACK says:

      The FBI doc doesn’t say a beeper was used in NORJAK, it reports a very faint beeper signal detected just upstream of TBAR about 40 hours after one would have been activated if it was used. That is why I asked if one was used?

      I’ll email it to you.

    • shutter45 says:

      I posted the event on my forum a while back. I believe I took a screenshot and posted it but I can’t find it..

  200. shutter45 says:

    I recall a document about a emergency signal being picked up. they were trying to determine whether he had help on the ground. the signal wasn’t close to T-Bar that I read..this was not a beacon used for the chutes. I believe they even identify the transmitter…this document also said it was a faint signal..

  201. brucesmith49 says:

    Thanks, Fly, for the beeper info. I am looking at two docs: One is the FBI report of an emergency beeper signal heard by an Oregon Air National Guard F-101 pilot on approach into PDX on the Friday after the skyjacking. The signal was heard twice, once eat of Vancouver, and then westward of Vancouver.

    The second doc is from the Frederick Hahneman investigation, where a beeper was inserted into the parachute pack. It describes a device that can emit signals for up to 24-hours to a range of 15 miles.

    This is an excellent find. A couple of posts back you asked us researchers “What the hell have y’all been doing to miss this stuff,” or words to that effect. Yup, I missed these docs. Glad you got ’em. The reality is that after reading hundreds of FBI docs, many of which are redacted and/or repetitive, my eyeballs started screaming and the migraines started a-comin’, so I had to give it a rest until more vigorous researchers such as yourself could guide us old guys forward. Thank You.

  202. shutter45 says:

    The signal tone was coming from Evergreen field north of Government island miles away from Tbar. it was on frequency 243.0 which is a emergency broadcast freq. it moved to Reynolds Aluminum plant west of Vancouver before fading out. this was on 12/26/71 at 3:30

  203. shutter45 says:

    The beepers they put in the chutes go off when the chute is deployed. hearing anything days later would rule out a chute tracking device..it would of went off when Cooper deployed..

  204. brucesmith49 says:

    Evergreen Field is the place where Rackstraw’s cohorts flew out of, according to Tom Colbert….

    It’s also the neighborhood where I almost died when Jo Weber was driving me to breakfast….

  205. brucesmith49 says:

    I don’t understand, Shut. You mean the beepers turn off when the chute is deployed?

  206. shutter45 says:

    You would think if they put it in the pouch or just inside then you could pull it out and smash it or toss it away. I’ll have to read up on what McCoy did. he didn’t remove them.

  207. FLYJACK says:

    7:25PM URGENT 11/26/71 TLA

    TO: – SEATTLE (C164 – 81)
    FROt-1: PORTLA ND ( 164-41)
    UNlSUB; HIJACKING OF NORTHWEST ORIENT AIRLINES FLIGHT THREE
    ZERO FiVE, ELEVEN TWENTTYFOUR SEVENTYONE:” CAA -HIJACKING; EXTORTION
    00: SEATTLE.

    ________________ OREGON AIR NATIONAL GUARD,
    ADVISED THAT AT APPROXIMATELY THREE THIRTY P.M. TODAY AS HE WAS
    MAKING APPROACH TO PORTLAND INTERNATIONAL AiRPORT IN F-ONE ZERO
    ONE FIGHTER: HEARD A FAINT RADIO TONE SIGNAL BEING BROADCAST
    ON TWO FOUR THREE POINT ZERO MC. A FREQUENCY RESERVED FOR EMERGENCY AIRCRAFT RADIO TRANSMISSIONS. SIGNAL FIRST HEARD NEAR EVERGREEN AIRPORT, JUST EAST OF VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, THEN HEARD SECOND TIME NEAR REYNOLDS ALUMINUM PLANT WEST OF VANCOUVER. SIGNAL HEARD FOR APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES, DURING WHICH TIME __________ ATTEMPTED TO OBTAIN RADIO FIX ON AUTOMATIC DIRECTION FINDER EQUIPMENT WITHOUT SUCCESS AS SIGNAL FADED OUT. SIGNAL WAS OF
    END OF PAGE ONE

    TYPE TRANSMITTED BY EMERGENCY LOCATED BEACONS CARRIED BY GENERAL AVIATION AND MILITARY AIRCRAFT. NO SUCH BEACONS KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN IN OPERATION, EITHER ACCIDENTALLY OR FOR TEST PURPOSES, AT TIME. FOR INFORMATION.

    END

    HANDWRITTEN NOTE “MANNING HANDLING”

    243.0 was a frequency also used by FBI for tracking. These things usually activate by g-force/impact. They need to be triangulated to pinpoint location. They are notoriously unreliable.

    Evergreen field was East of Vancouver.

    But, the Reynolds Aluminum plant was near Troutdale East of Government Island next to the Columbia far from Evergreen Airport and very far East of Vancouver. The pilot stated West of Vancouver, ALCOA was the big Aluminum plant West of Vancouver on the Columbia about 4 miles upstream of TBAR.

    Did the pilot mix up the name of the Aluminum plant.. Alcoa was west of Vancouver but Reynolds was very far East. Since he described Evergreen as East, he was more likely referring to Alcoa as West.. but called it Reynolds by mistake.

    Hahneman found the beepers planted in the chutes. The tracking plane was called back so he was never tracked. He did comment that the beeper would help his friends on the ground find him..

    If the FBI did put beepers in Cooper’s chutes they may be withholding that.

    Shutter makes a good point that the signal would have been picked up earlier, but it isn’t conclusive maybe it was a weakened signal in the Columbia River in his coat pocket or dummy chute??

    • Marla says:

      Good post, Fly. In the McCoy hijacking, the FBI planted a beeper in one of the chutes. But McCoy threw it out of the 727 and used his own chute. The FBI chased the wrong chute.

    • Marla says:

      Good post, Fly. In the McCoy hijacking, the FBI planted a beeper in one of the chutes. But McCoy threw it out of the 727 and used his own chute. The FBI chased the wrong chute.

  208. shutter45 says:

    when you read the same 302 further down it was a signal from the ground they were wondering about more than anything. if any beepers were in any of the chutes they would of went off when he left. hearing a signal two days later doesn’t make sense. the signal was moving and it wouldn’t be something a bad guy would want. KPDX has military planes and one could of went off.

    They would of known when he jumped. instead you read the possible landing zone and the crew failed to signal with the planes lights because they weren’t sure he left. unlike the crew with McCoy checked on him several times. once they felt the pressure bump the contacted them with a location location and went into the cabin to verify. 305 opted not to go past or look past the first class curtain…

    • FLYJACK says:

      Signal wasn’t moving, it needed to be triangulated but was lost. Hearing it from two locations doesn’t mean it was moving.

  209. shutter45 says:

    messed up the post a little..going to the kitchen in between posting…

    Cooper left the plane…we know that, so if any tracking device was on him it would of been tripped by the cord, pressure/altitude. they wouldn’t have to search such a large area if they had tracked him. the only way would be taking them out and leaving them on the plane. if you believe the signal was Cooper, then the tracking device went with him…can’t be any other way…it’s the same conclusion I came to over a year ago….the signal probably was nothing…

    • FLYJACK says:

      I brought it up in relation to Tosaw’s theory that Cooper landed in the Columbia with the overcoat and the Tina money in his pocket. That possible “beeper” signal is right there where he would have landed. Tosaw had inside info, why was he convinced Cooper landed in the Columbia.

      and why didn’t the FBI disclose whether Cooper put the parachute on over the overcoat or not? they must know

      and I don’t necessarily agree with this.. I am looking at several theories

      • TED says:

        Tosaw’s brother Mike worked the San Francisco FO in the 80’s when Tosaw was investigating. Tosaw had insider’s info. The Tosaw brothers played college football for Nebraska in the 50’s.

  210. shutter45 says:

    Robert, take your own advice about going places where one is not wanted?

  211. shutter45 says:

    I vote no on doing anything with you Robert. you are poison. you as a bargaining chip is amusing to say the least. last I heard he was willing to turn it over to two trustful people in the community. you read the email, you were on it.

  212. shutter45 says:

    Robert, you have done enough damage..take it like a man and move on dude, seriously.

  213. shutter45 says:

    I don’t give a crap what you think it is….

  214. shutter45 says:

    Nothing to think about..get that through the hollow walls…should I make a press release, what will it take for you to understand no?

    To recap…you have done an enormous amount of damage both on and offline. nobody wants anything to do with you. how or why is this so hard for you to swallow?

  215. brucesmith49 says:

    Attention RMB. I am done with you posting here. You are not wanted here. If you continue to post at the Mountain News-WA, I will seek to have WordPress ban you permanently from this site. Failing that, I will file a complaint against you with the FBI and the IC3 Division for unwanted Internet intrusion and harassment. I will also seek legal counsel for a civil suit against you for defamation and trespass.

  216. brucesmith49 says:

    That’s it RMB. I’m calling the cops.

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      This is very good discussion about a radio signal device being installed in the chute for tracking. But I take issue with Shutter about the device being activated by pulling the cord. I dont think so. McCoy threw out the chute the FBI gave him, thinking it had a signal device. He was right. McCoy outfoxed them and strapped on the sport chute that he carried on the 727. There is a discussion about this in Calame’s and Rhodes book. Question: why didn’t Cooper surmise the radio device, but McCoy did? Couldn’t be the same person both times.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        ps. McCoy seemed to know more about parachutes than Cooper. Bringing your own chute to the hijacking gives much better odds of escape than relying on the FBI to bring one to you.

      • shutter45 says:

        The chutes were not beeping until they chutes left the plane.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Maybe ground impact activates them. Acceleration ends.

        Hahneman also found trackers May 1972.

  217. shutter45 says:

    Bruce, if you need any help don’t hesitate to contact me. I think everyone on this board will back you up if needed. his actions have gone on far to long and need to be stopped. perhaps the first step would be the local police.

  218. FLYJACK says:

    The source was not moving.. there was no fix. The pilot reported his location.

    “SIGNAL FIRST HEARD NEAR EVERGREEN AIRPORT, JUST EAST OF VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, THEN HEARD SECOND TIME NEAR REYNOLDS ALUMINUM PLANT WEST OF VANCOUVER. SIGNAL HEARD FOR APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES, DURING WHICH TIME __________ ATTEMPTED TO OBTAIN RADIO FIX ON AUTOMATIC DIRECTION FINDER EQUIPMENT WITHOUT SUCCESS AS SIGNAL FADED OUT”

  219. shutter45 says:

    According to 377. he said they are on when they put them in the container. the aluminum shields the signal pretty much until it pops out of the plane with as full signal.

    • FLYJACK says:

      377 is speculating, he has no knowledge of the specific equipment the FBI may have used. They do have different activation settings and the FBI has used 243.0 frequency for tracking.

  220. shutter45 says:

    He also doesn’t believe any were on 305, which I concur…

    • FLYJACK says:

      377 said “almost certainly not” based on incorrect facts, he incorrectly used 121.5 frequency as a premise.

      Never blindly accept a conclusion/opinion from anyone without knowing the underlying argument.

      I brought up in the context of Tosaw’s theory.. that he landed in the Columbia.

      I remain neutral on it.. but somebody knows for sure.

  221. shutter45 says:

    he turned it off and jumped, then two days later turned it back on for no reason?

    • FLYJACK says:

      That is a valid point, we know they were used on other hijackings but we don’t have enough information. How do they function in a water landing? Could it have been moved and discarded? I found some that have different activation settings, but I can’t find the exact model that the FBI would use.

  222. brucesmith49 says:

    Terry, regarding Tina and any violence/unsavory acts done to her by DB Cooper:

    There are rumors. Here is what I know.

    1. Ralph Himmelsbach has called DBC a rotten, sleazy criminal for decades, but has never spelled out exactly why he uses that characterization.

    2. Galen told me that when he last spoke with Florence Schaffner in 2009, she felt that DBC may have sexually assaulted Tina during the supposed 45 minutes they were alone in the aft cabin. That would be after the passengers left and before take-off, minus any time spent re-fueling and dealing with those affairs. I have no corroboration on the 45-minutes alone, nor the assault.

    3. Jo Weber says that Duane went and found Tina in Gresham/Portland in the 1979 time-frame when Jo and Duane were traveling to Seattle from Colorado. Jo says that Duane mentally and psychologically assaulted Tina at that time. Again, no corroboration.

    4. I have speculated at the DZ about ten years ago that one of the reasons that Tina was so skilled at handling DB Cooper was that she may have been physically or sexually assaulted earlier in her life and knew full-well how to deal with predators who were threatening her and people she cared about. I have ceased speaking about that angle since I have absolutely no corroborating evidence to support the theory, and numerous readers have objected to my speculations.

    5. Over the past ten years I have frequently speculated that something sinister may have happened to Tina after the skyjacking that caused her great troubles, such as landing her in the long-term health care facility in Gresham, Oregon by 1979. What those scenarios were are hard to fathom, but could involve MKULTRA-like processes to obtain her silence or compliance, or guilt or anxieties arising from having to support the official narrative of the skyjacking put out by NWO and the FBI, ie: white-washing the actual events on 305 during the skyjacking, such as the arrival of an FBI agent, the ruckus in Row 12, moving the passengers forward at a much later time then publicly stated, etc. It is issues such as these that lead me to say that if we knew more about Tina, then we would know more about NORJAK.

    • FLYJACK says:

      That is way out there on the limb, I have been pursuing a much simpler explanation that pulls everything together but it isn’t something that can be discussed here.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Part of what you said Bruce was: What those scenarios were are hard to fathom, but could involve MKULTRA-like processes to obtain her silence or compliance, or guilt or anxieties arising from having to support the official narrative of the skyjacking put out by NWO and the FBI, ie: white-washing the actual events on 305 during the skyjacking, such as the arrival of an FBI agent, the ruckus in Row 12, moving the passengers forward at a much later time then publicly stated, etc. It is issues such as these that lead me to say that if we knew more about Tina, then we would know more about NORJAK.

      That does make sense to me and does fit in with other crimes that Nanette and I agree are linked. Nanette was way ahead of me on the MKULTRA business, so I had to play catch up ball on that too. Let me clarify that I don’t disagree with her on any of her case linkages, it’s just that she’s much more studied on the several other crimes that she has linked. If it wasn’t for her, I’d know nothing about the DB Cooper case.

      Given what we do know what happened to Tina, I’d say that those are not reckless speculations that you cite. The UNSUB very like did a lot to mess with Tina’s mind, which would explain Himmelsbach’s remarks about the UNSUB. It fits.

      Did you ever wonder if Cooper used some of the parachute cord to tie the loafers to his feet?
      Thanks again Bruce.

  223. brucesmith49 says:

    Parachute cord to tie loafers to his feet? Hmmm. Possible, but I’m a Duct Tape kind of guy, and I would hope that DBC wold use something with more stick-um than the stiff, unwieldy rope from a parachute.

    • Marla says:

      Given what you know and learned about Robert Blevins during the past 10 years, Bruce, I can’t imagine you teaming up with him to do anything. You would be at high risk. Besides, he said he was leaving WA this year to move to AZ. Or was that another lie too?

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Bruce, if you like regular duct tape, try gaffers tape, as was used on the Ramsey girl, which I read as yet another one of the author of the ransom note’s (JT) many messages. However, gaffers is much more expensive.
      Did the Cooper UNSUB have duct tape with him? Perhaps something to keep the sunglasses, which would act as googles, on his head? Perhaps he had an aviators hood too? Everybody makes a big deal about him getting cold, but he probably wasn’t “in the blast” very long.
      BTW, the sheer number of JT inclusions on the Ramsey ransom note is by far the most redundant hint on the damn thing. Hence my “author/(JT)” usage. It’s inclusion(s) reminds me of gang graffiti.

  224. brucesmith49 says:

    RMB says a lot of things about a lot of things. I take all of it with a lot of grains of salt.

  225. Bruce: Stop worrying. AB has withdrawn from participation in this year’s convention. I already sent a notice to Jim and Eric about it. No need to go into details. We just decided it was best.
    And please stop threatening to call the FBI and/or police on me If you don’t want me to post here, All you have to do is select this comment from Comments in your User Control Panel, and check the box marked Ban User. You then select the option that shows my IP address and click it. No more posting. Anyone who owns a WordPress blog knows this. My truck is fully packed for vacation this weekend, and I have to go. Your deletion of this post will show you read it, and understand it. Sincerely, Robert

  226. Terry Battcher says:

    Documented linkage of the word “action” is first noted with the document that Nanette posted on page two, post #23 of this thread titled: The DB Cooper caper and Zodiac Jack linked? ….Absolutely, say’s the sum of the evidence!
    with “ACTION GUIDE” on the document QC40, which tells me that it’s an FBI file document and was received by the Sacramento Bee on 12-12-69. The second hint(s) of the word “action” is found on the airline ticket in the way “DAN COoPEr”was structured. The crossbar in the letter A is slanted forward, like the crossbars are, for example, in the original Star Trek TV series, which is a throwback to the old comic book style of fonts that place emphasize on the term ‘action.’

    The word “action” is also emphasized with the implied word “Faction” on the JonBenet Ramsey ransom note, by the way it’s specifically structured. Going back to the DAN COoPEr airline ticket, not only is there yet another example of his repeated hint at ‘jt’ with the way he structured the letter P, an anagram for the word ‘action’ is also contained within the DAN COoPEr signature. On the QC40 document also note the line over the word “WANT,” which is a modifier that inverts the statement into “not WANT.” The Ramsey ransom note is laced with several ‘not’ modifiers.

    In the Cooper Norjak files that have the taunting post Cooper caper documents, very noteworthy is the fact that there are BD vs DB Cooper documents, which I as a researcher recognize as a hint to the 1947 Black Dahlia case of the brutal murder of Elizabeth Short. Ms Short’s remains were placed at 34.0164N by 118.333W. Noteworthy standouts are 118, 333 and the fact that these coordinates are expressed in decimals vs minutes and seconds. I attribute 333 to be his way of placing emphasis on the number 3 and have noted that linked document evidence has 3ea examples of each item that he placed emphasis on. 118 is a key number in the Ramsey case, found once on the ransom note, and once with John Ramsey’s bonus pay of $118,117.50, which is 50 cents ‘Short’ of a figure of $118,118. So, it works out that we end up with 4ea examples of the 118 figure in total. Are all of these things a mere coincidence? I think not.

  227. FLYJACK says:

    According to FBI bios….

    Richard worked in Seattle then SF,, Michael worked in Phoenix then SF…

    ——————–
    MICHAEL A.TOSAW, born Feb 18,1919. Entered FBI duty in February 1952 and his first office was Phoenix, AZ. Then went to San Francisco to join his brother, Dick. As a special agent in the San Francisco Office, he was an instructor for sheriff and police departments. Retired from the Bureau in 1975.
    Was a football player with Iowa University along with Heisman Trophy winner, Nile Kinnick, in 1939. One of the cases he worked on was the Patty Hearst Case.
    His hobbies are gardening, drawing cartoons, painting portraits and he is a world-class story teller.
    Married______ and has three children: _______, _______ and Shelly, and four grandchildren.

    RICHARD T. TOSAW, born March 13, 1925, and grew up in Omaha, NE. Entered FBI duty in April 1951 and went to his first office in Seattle, then to San Francisco Applicant and Security Squads. Left the bureau in December 1955 (his brother Mike was in the same office).

    Attended Nebraska University, Creighton University and received his LLB from Denver University in 1950. Practiced law for many years in California’s San Joaquin Valley. Wrote a book about the famous skyjacker called D.B. Cooper, Dead or Alive and is also writing a book about his search for Glenn Miller, the band leader who disappeared in 1944 over the English Channel.
    Owns a company called The Bureau of Missing Heirs. Inc.(they go around the country looking for heirs in California probate cases).
    He is single: never married.

  228. brucesmith49 says:

    Thank you, Fly. I appreciate the update on Richard Tosaw and his brother.

  229. chris23 says:

    Skyjack lifted-copied his post from “Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI”: edited by Turner Publishing, a Google e book after a search for Mike Tosaw. https://books.google.com/books?id=8h406aDUeL4C&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=Mike+Tosaw+Iowa+football&source=bl&ots=pQrxJlBddP&sig=ACfU3U2ckPFLXE8jITq8xTwJvD0-xNJoTw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiehtv3sZfhAhVHTt8KHcocAhMQ6AEwDXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Mike%20Tosaw%20Iowa%20football&f=false

    Next question is, is the info Flyjacker posted correct? Ha Ha Ha.

    • REY says:

      Yes Flyack is in the copy and paste business. I confirmed your link with Flyjack’s copy job. But, when did Mike Tosaw play with Nile Kinnick and the Ironmen? It isnt in any records! And it was not on the famous 1939 Ironman team. In fact, no MIKE TOSAW is even recorded or listed as ever playing football at UI. 85 guys showed up in the Spring of 1939 and by Fall only 30 were left and Mike Tosaw isnt on any of those lists, or on any other list Ive seen. So Flyjack needs to give some proof that Mike Toisaw played with Nile Kinnick and when ? Just cut and paste and copy if you find something.

  230. brucesmith49 says:

    The above comment has been modified due to inappropriate and provocative language.

  231. brucesmith49 says:

    UPDATE ON THE TOSAW BROTHERS

    I just received this Galen:

    If I mis-spoke, I’d like to correct now. Richard Tosaw worked out of the Seattle FO as a sworn agent, early 50’s, not out of SF FO. His older brother Mike was at SF FO and rose to SAC. Mike played college football, not Richard. Richard graduated from law school in Nebraska, either Creighton or Drake….I forget. Richard went into private practice in CA and ended up in Ceres, near Stockton. He later founded “Bureau of Missing Heirs,” his own business and part of his law
    practice. I actually first contacted Tosaw in 1984 and he mailed me a signed copy of his book. Then, he signed the book twice more in 2005 and 2008, a collector’s item for sure. After our five-day investigation on the Columbia he asked me to move to CA and be his associate attorney. I rejected b/c I had my own office in Spokane and liked living there. Tosaw died in 9/09 from prostate cancer. His office contacted me and gave me part of his DBC file for “safe keeping.” For two years I had the NB8 that Cossey gave to Tosaw. Then Tosaw’s niece called and requested it. I gave it to her. The last time I ever saw Tosaw was in Starbucks at 8th and Columbia in Vancouver, WA. we drank coffee for two hours and spent the entire time going over the flight path of 305. He expressed much interest and agreement of the FBI’s version of the flight path, according to Carr.

    GC

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