By Bruce A. Smith
The 47th Anniversary of the DB Cooper skyjacking was celebrated with a gathering of experts and aficionados to discuss the details of the case, and ponder new evidence and suspects.
On November 24, 1971, DB Cooper hijacked a Northwest Orient 727 enroute to Seattle from Portland, and after he jumped from the aft stairs with $200,000 in twenties tethered to his waist, nothing has ever been discovered – neither his identity, fate, or any of his gear or booty. However, $6,200 of ransom money was found on a Columbia River beach in 1980, but that discovery also defies explanation. DB Cooper’s daring-do has been feted every since, and this anniversary was no exception. The DB Cooper heist, known to law enforcement as NORJAK, remains the only unsolved skyjacking in American history. Nevertheless, the FBI officially closed the case in 2016.
Approximately 100 people gathered Saturday, November 2018 at the Edgewater Country Club in Portland, Oregon to share opinions, sell books and DVDs on the case, and network with each other. It was the third such gathering in recent memory, with a major conference in Portland in 2011, and a smaller affair in Tacoma at the Washington State Historical Museum in 2013.
The first half of this year’s conference featured experts in the case illustrating the fundamentals of the case, and revealing new understandings of this iconic mystery.
First to speak was parachute expert, Mark Metzler, known in DB Cooper chat rooms as “377.” Metzler described in detail the differences in construction between military and civilian parachutes, claiming that skydivers using sport chutes such as the Pioneer Steinthal that was found unused on Cooper’s plane when it landed for refueling in Reno, Nevada, must deploy at speeds below 150 mph. However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds. Cooper’s plane, Flight 305 was traveling closer to 200 mph when Cooper jumped, and thus the military chute that might have been aboard, such as a NB-6 or NB-8 – both emergency parachutes for navy fliers – would have been adequate. Metzler said that the NB-8 would most likely contain a 28-foot C-9 parachute, whereas the NB-6 would contain a 26-foot conical chute.
But the exact nature of the parachute DB Cooper used is shrouded in mystery. The FBI’s technical expert on parachutes, Earl Cossey, says Cooper had a NB-6 or NB-8. However, Norman Hayden, whom FBI documents reveal delivered these back chutes to NWO and owned them, says he only gave civilian Pioneer rigs containing Steinthals. FBI documents and statements by case agents vary greatly on this subject and Cooper World reels, trying to resolve this dilemma. Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.
Next up was yours truly, talking about the money find at Tina Bar in 1980. I discussed three apparent money finds at this Columbia River beach, about fifteen miles downstream from where the 2018 Conference was held.
The first money find was the iconic discovery of three bundles of twenties by Brian Ingram, the 8-year old kid smoothing a sandy stretch of strand for his family to roast hot dogs. On Sunday, February 10, 1980, his fingers scraped across the top of the bundles and then he dug them out. They were all in severely weathered condition, compressed, and missing the corners and edges. Subsequent examination of the serial numbers revealed that these bills were from the Cooper ransom, and this discovery remains the only incontrovertible piece of evidence in NORJAK.
The second money find occurred three days later when FBI agents from the Portland Division, under the command of SA Ralph Himmelsbach, descended on the beach and started digging in the sand where Brian had found his three bundles. Himmelsbach says his team found shards of money in the original discovery area down to a depth of three feet.
The Public Information Officer on the scene, Dorwin Schroeder, has told many researchers that they found pieces of money stretching over an area 20-feet in all directions from the spot where Brian found his twenties. Schroeder also says that the shards were recovered from depths of 3-4 feet, and some were as big as 2-3 inches across. A KATU-TV video shows these larger pieces of ransom money and their placement into Plasticine evidence envelopes. However, none of these envelopes are in evidence in Seattle, and as far as is known have never been seen in public. The only money pieces in FBI possession that have been witnessed, such as by the Citizen Sleuth Team in 2009 and 2011, are hundreds of itsy-bitsy pieces that look more like dust particles than remnants of a twenty-dollar bill.
Himmelsbach says that all the money recovered at T-Bar went to Seattle, but he retired from the Bureau two weeks after the money find, and his subsequent investigations of the money are unknown. But his PIO, SA Schroeder, took over his skyjacking duties at the Portland FBI office, and he told this reporter that he assumed a passive perspective on the case, only responding to clues brought into the FBI by the public. Thus, it is understood that after the February money find at T-Bar, the rest of the Columbia River river bank was never searched for more money or evidence – not even Cooper’s body.
Into that breach DB Cooper researcher Galen Cook began contacting beach owners near Tina Bar and talked to local fishermen. Cook says that he found two men who were teenagers in 1980, and they say that they fished the river regularly in the T-Bar area. They claim that in January 1980 – one month before the Brian Ingram find – they found dozens of torn corners of twenty-dollar bills laying in the sand about 100 feet downstream from Brian’s spot. This third discovery remains uncorroborated, and thus is highly controversial.
The next speaker was Tom Kaye, the head of the Citizen Sleuth Team (CST). Kaye discussed the particles found on the tie reportedly left behind by DB Cooper, in particular the recent discovery of 100,000 rare earth minerals and other exotic or unusual chemical deposits.
First was a history of the initial examination by the CST using their electron microscope. They found hundreds of particles, and most prominent was pure titanium.
“In 1971, titanium was not common,” said Kaye, “and was not used in sporting goods as it is today, and was found mostly in aviation applications, such as Boeing’s SST.” But the SST uses titanium alloys, so the CST explored the titanium mining and extraction process to see where pure Ti could be found in quantity and how it might land on a thin, black tie.
Kaye and his CST found that titanium is extracted from “titanium sand” and was selectively removed by two different chemical processes. One, the Kroll Process, uses chlorine and the other, the Hunter Process, uses sodium to “suck out” the titanium from the sand.
However, the CST also found large amounts of mineral salts on the tie, and the sodium process leaves NaCl residues, which is the primary component of salt. Surprisingly, the sodium process is only used in one manufacturing plant, RMI, which is located in Illinois. Kaye and the CST thought that RMI might be the site where DB Cooper worked long enough as an engineer or manager to adsorb titanium and salt on his tie, but officials at RMI said they had no employees resembling the DB Cooper sketch working in the pre-skyjacking period.
Seemingly at a dead end, the tie investigation took a dramatic turn in 2015 when the Travel Channel interviewed Tom Kay for an Expedition Unknown episode on DB Cooper. During the resulting conversations, the host of the show, Josh Gates, decided to contribute the monies to examine the tie at a state-of-the art laboratory, the McCrone Institute in Illinois.
The McCrone labs used a high-end ASPEX 3025 SEM electron microscope to examine the tie particles. Kaye says they found additional Antimony, Cerium, Cerium Lanthanum, and other phosphors, and Barium, plus cutting tool and match-head residues, and elements of gold and platinum, presumably from the tie clip of other jewelry use with the tie. Also, the NaCl was an industrial type of salt, and not the kind of table salt found on French Fries. In addition, they also found a substance called “frit,” which is a powder used to fuse glasses together, and shards of stainless steel, but not regular steel.
Taken in sum, Kaye offered this analysis:
The phosphors, ceriums and antimony are indicative of cathode ray tube manufacturing. The cutting tool residues also suggest a manufacturing environment, as does the stainless steel and frit. Kaye said that the primary location for these kinds of elements would be the Tektronix plant in Portland, which was the leading manufacturer of oscilloscopes in the country in 1971. Lastly, the match head residues indicate a heavy smoker, and the tie itself suggests a manager or engineer.
“This is the hottest lead in Cooper World,” Kaye pronounced.
As for the afternoon, the bulk of the time was dedicated to a rendition of suspects by their leading advocates. Peter Rouse, a resident of Astoria, Oregon, spoke about the connection between Norman DeWinter and Robert Rackstraw. Although highly personalized – Rouse talked about his personal involvement with DeWinter – he offered no new information on Rackstraw as DB Cooper.
But many Rackstraw advocates were in attendance, including Russ and Kristy Cooper, the residents of Portland who informed Tom Colbert of the possible DBC burial sites in LaConner, WA where the money and parachutes might be found. The Coopers and other individuals from that retrieval effort, such as Jim Erwin, were in the audience and spoke informally during the conference.
Bradley Collins, who has written a book claiming his father was DB Cooper, was also in attendance, but did not speak publicly. Nevertheless, he was active in smaller groupings.
Next on stage was Vern Jones, the publisher of the Walter Reca story, penned by Carl Laurin. Jones offered a detailed and authoritative description of the Reca saga. Jones also established a wonderful bonhomie with the audience and other DBC experts by saying, “I know that much of what I am going to tell you is going to rub you the wrong way, such as the flight path. I acknowledge that, and we want to be transparent about it, but it is the Walter Reca story as told by Carl Laurin. It’s what we’ve got.”
In essence, Walter Reca was a rough fellow and part-time thief who was an expert skydiver. In 1971 he decided that it was “Better to be Dead than Poor,” and stole NWO Flight 305. The Reca story has him landing in Cle Elum, WA, due east of Seattle and a long ways from the Victor-23 air corridor that DB Cooper was supposedly following south of Sea-Tac airport.
Later, Reca was absolved of this crime and recruited into a contract position for an unnamed intelligence agency of the United States Government. After a period of training where his “head was sculpted” Reca performed off-the-books operations, including assassinations, in 34 countries worldwide. Jones’ presentation of Reca’s passports was fascinating, with stamps and official certifications overflowing from the pages in dozens of languages.
Jones’ presentation was highly professional and well-received, even if widely doubted.
Lastly, Conference host and organizer, Eric Ulis, delivered his up-to-date analysis of Sheridan Peterson as the leading suspect for DB Cooper. New revelations included the secret bank account Peterson had in Singapore, and the fact that his second wife – with whom he lived in Nepal and was his primary alibi – was not dead as he had reported to the FBI, but rather, was still alive according to Peterson family members that Ulis has contacted in the past few weeks.
Peterson, 92, is living in central California. His “lightly fictionalized” account of the Vietnam War, An Idiot’s Frightful Laughter, has recently been published by the Cooperite known as “Snowmman” and was available for viewing at the Conference. It is for sale at Lulu.com, with all proceeds going to Peterson. Ulis and others feel that many of the elements of the DB Cooper skyjacking are confirmed or revealed in Peterson’s book, such as descriptions of harsh parachute jumps. Regardless, it is a searing war account and worthy of a read.
Following the Conference many attendees and presenters flocked to the Victor-23 pub in nearby Vancouver. The wateringhole is chummy craft brewery, with a wall mural depicting a Northwest Orient 727 discharging its passengers, and the good vibes of the Conference continued.
In fact, most of the presenters met there before the Conference. Mark Metzler, Eric Ulis, Tom Kaye and yours truly arrived there early in Friday evening, and met Dirk Wierenga and Dave S, who comprised the video crew from Principia filming the gathering. Vern Jones and his wife Irene joined us in the course of events. A Pilsner called “Skyjacker blonde” was delicious, as was rumored another Pilsner, the “Schaffner,” named after flight attendant Florence Schaffner, but was sold out. Further, the wall mural of Cooper’s 727 is actually a “200” series and not the 100 that Cooper flew, I was informed. The 200 has an aft fuselage door on the starboard side, which the 100 does not, besides the customary ventral aft stairways.
Both Friday and Saturday evenings numerous locals came by and shared a beer with us and the roomful of Cooperites, including podcasters Darren Schaefer, and his editor “Ben.” “Vince” from Olympia hung with us through the night and videoed many presenters and attendees for later broadcast.
On Saturday, I sat with Ron Bertrand, who runs the NW Escape Experience and features the DB Cooper Escape Room, where someone last summer broke in to rob the place and couldn’t get out and had to call 911 to be arrested and “freed,” so to speak.
Rob is a major DB Cooper figure in Portland. Very passionate and informed.
Clyde Lewis, the host of Portland’s Ground Zero Radio, came to the conference at the end of the afternoon and joined us at V-23. There he regaled us with his numerous encounters with DB Cooper suspect, Wolfgang Gossett, who died a few years ago in Depoe Bay, Oregon. Those two gentlemen were entangled in the extreme, with encounters in Utah, Oregon, talk radio, and personal healings. Lewis even lived two block away from Gossett’s last wife. Clyde should write a book about his personal relationship with “Wolfie,” and about Gossett regardless of the DB Cooper angle. Wolfie and Clyde are just two extraordinary, weird, fascinating guys.
Clyde also told us many stories from his Ground Zero radio show, which is broadcast nationally. His tales of research on the fringe, such as MKULTRA, Area 51, and reverse engineering of UFOs at Hangar 18 at Wright-Paterson were captivating. Many Cooperites loved it, as I did, but not all.
Another conferee at V-23 was Dan Wyatt, who runs the Kiggins Theatre in Portland. Wyatt produced a DB Cooper radio show there on Wednesday evening, which folks at V-23 said was fantastic.
One of the eye-catching dimensions of the conference – and the pub – was that half the folks were Millennials, 30-years and younger. I was impressed. They asked lots of questions, too. One woman named Katie asked questions all day and all evening, too. Took notes, too. First time I ever saw a marbleized notebook in a tavern….
Everyone I talked with thought the conference was a success and they now want an annual gathering. Most also want an “Ariel tavern-style” party to accompany the conference. Bryan Woodruff, son of Dona Elliott, the late owner of the Ariel Tavern and DB Cooper Party Hostess, was in attendance at V-23, and voiced support for these ideas.
One of the hallmarks of the conference, and certainly evenings at the Victor-23 pub, was the lack of animosity – the total opposite of the current bickering on the DB Cooper Forum. Some folks came into the conference in a cautious manner, such as Kristy Cooper and her husband Russ Cooper. When Kristy introduced herself to me, I said, “Ah, I have been tracking you two for a long time!”
“Yes, I know,” Kristy replied, with a slight smile. Nevertheless, we talked about working cooperatively in the future, and that might be a possibility. But their leader, Tom Colbert, needs to give the okay for Kristy and Russ to feel comfortable with that arrangement. But she bought my book, so….
As for next year, Eric Ulis says that he is committed to producing another Conference. He also announced that Mark Metzler made a substantial contribution to this year’s Conference, which was free to the public. Details will follows as plans are developed.
Pictured: Eric Ulis, (r), Mark Metzler, (c), Bruce A. Smith, (l). Picture courtesy of Eric Ulis.
Tim Kaye, (l), with Bradley Collins, (r)
NB-8, top, with 727 flight manual, lower
Reserve chute, lower, with flight manual, above
Eric Ulis giving his introductory remarks at the beginning of the 2018 DB Cooper Conference. Edgewater Columbia Country Club, Portland, OR
The Mountain News - WA 
Nice report, Bruce. It may have been a partial error on my part relating the info to you, but the two brothers found only “one” corner of a Cooper twenty, not dozens. I contacted them in about 2013 and they agreed to meet me at Tena’s Bar where they directed me to the exact location.
Their find was in January 1980 about a month preceeding the Ingram find. The location was about 150 feet downstream of Ingram. They took the $20 corner home to show their parents. The brothers were 9 and 11 years old. They had no idea what they were looking at until AFTER they read about the Ingram find in February. What the young fisherman’s find indicated to me is that (1) there may have been another burial source downstream, and (2) possibly more than three packets involved. Maybe both.
On another topic, I never met Tom Kaye, however I spent an hour with him on the phone several years ago. I respect his in-depth analysis regarding the tie particles. The only problem from my perspective is that before you can derive the conclusions Tom has provided, you have to first prove that the tie was always owned by Cooper. I believe Cooper purchased his disguise costume at a Goodwill type of store just prior to the hijacking. That would negate any subsequent theory as to Cooper’s workplace or professional status based on types of particles found on the tie.
Richard Tosaw, who represented the Ingrams in federal court, received a portion of the bills. Tosaw gave some to his friends and his Estate received the rest of the bills.
Thanks for the info, Galen. I didn’t know that Tosaw received any bills.
Thanks Bruce, for sending me the report of the conference.
I do hope that I will be able to attend, from the UK, at sometime in the future.
I still find the initial finding of the notes at TB, to be highly unusual to say the least. I have already given Galen and yourself my comments on the condition of the notes. Although it is difficult to be sure from just looking at photos, but I still think they had been there for a max of two years.
Greetings to all from the United Kingdom.
David
Thanks for responding, David. As someone from the printing business, your expert commentary on the money find is always welcomed!
However, $6,200 of ransom money was found on a Columbia River beach in 1980?????
The sum of $6,200 comes from the latest count of the bills and fragments, in particular, the auction house that Brian gave the majority of his bills has uncovered additional bills that had been overlooked initially due to the compression of the bundles.
There weren’t new bills found.. there were new bill numbers identified.. big difference.
I really question the $6,200 figure. Remember, this updated figure is being attributed to the auction house and their abilities.
However, The auction house has examined less than half the total bills–the FBI has 14 bills, the insurance company has “half” of what was left and Brian had the other half. As far as I know the auction house has never seen the insurance company’s portion. Therefore, how do you arrive at a $6,200 figure based up the FBI’s 14 bills and Brian’s portion?
I believe the total is no greater than $5,800 to $6,000.
Yes, the best way to characterize the amount of money is to say, “approximately $6,200.” The exact amount is not known. 6K may be the upper limit, but I recall the auction house speculating that the number they thought that was in the T-Bar find was $6, 200 – and thus the amount of bills available for auction potentially. That number would determine the relative value of any individual bill when it goes to auction.
They found new serial numbers, not bills…
If they found NEW NUMBERS then they found new pieces of a bill! One sewrial number oper bill. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Ah, that is another element to consider. Please tell us more, Shut.
What is wrong with you people? There is only one serial number per bill. If they find a new number never logged before then they are finding pieces of bills those serial numbers are part of! This is common sense!
Whether the tie came from a thrift store or not, the fact that it had such a large list of highly specialized particles on it, is very uncanny indeed. The odds of any one particular person getting the sheer number of these same specific particles on their tie, is astronomically rather improbable. Perhaps a research laboratory is a more likely source? Even so, why would so many of these same particles be on that ‘one tie?’ To me, it’s more like this particular evidence was intentionally placed on that tie. Which of these same particles could have been airborne, which would not? At first glance, it’s as though whomever had that tie was a slob…but would a slob have a job in such an area that had all of these same kind of particles? Look at this same puzzle from other angles: Even if it was a research lab source, how could have it have been so sloppy with the samples? How about a foreign enemy agent having sampled these particles by sticking his finger in the samples and then rubbing his of her tie? You’ve got to kick these ideas around, kids!
In other words, how could one look at this same overall evidence and then fixate only on the particles of pure titanium as being the place to go looking? Such a line of reasoning is very obviously pure bullshit! That tie evidence is a very sophisticated puzzle indeed, especially so when ALL things are carefully considered. Yes, I know about the Tektronix idea, but does that account for ALL of these same particles? I doubt that it does. Maybe so?
Another bunch of bullshit is to ASSUME that a rather large parachute was deployed at 200 miles per hour in the Cooper caper! That same parachute would pop open almost immediately and render the person wearing it unconscious, at a minimum, but probably kill them eventually. A falling body will speed up to about 80-90 MPH, and that would also represent a very sudden tug in regular use, but there would certainly have been some “give,” with a slower opening of the chute. Compare the analogy of using a tow chain vs a tow strap to pull a vehicle, the chain has no “give,” and as such it is more likely to cause damage to one vehicle or the other, or both. The tow strap has more of a bungee cord characteristic to it. If Cooper died in that jump, the dogs would have picked up the scent…period! To follow this crime properly, you really have to question and examine any and ALL lines reasoning.
Consider this…once a person has certain ideas in their head for any length of time, those same ideas don’t easily leave them. Most people would readily assume that it’s absurd to consider a linkage between these cases: the California Zodiac killer, Norjak, OCCK and the Ramsey case…. that is until they acquire an open mind and carefully examine the core evidence which shows the linkage, and add to that, that they’ve had time to process the information too. I’m telling you kids…this same UNSUB rigged the evidence to prove that what I’m saying is true, but it took me quite awhile to “process” the information too, in order to get to this point. And, I’ve done so and I’m not looking for fame, I value my privacy too. Again, I do this stuff out of a sense of duty.
MKULTRA linkage too? Probably so from what I’ve seen.
Terminal velocity of an average jumper would be around 120 mph. the McNally hijacking was much faster than Cooper. he jumped at speeds of 300 mph. he was banged up but survived. he didn’t use a backpack, he used the front chute.
Terry, you overlook a lot of things. the dogs could pickup a scent sure, if they were in the right area. also, nobody knows how Cooper bailed out of the plane. could of pulled on the stairs or did a free fall to terminal. they have a rather large area of possibilities where Cooper jumped and they focused on an area surrounding Ariel. one memo states it’s possible he jumped very close to the Columbia. that’s a rather large area to try and find a scent, chute, or body. it’s about 23 miles from the Columbia to Ariel and then several miles wide. huge area to search.
Shutter45, I think that you’re the one overlooking a lot of things. The FBI’s FOIA files clarify, via two separate sources, that the jump was near Le Center, WA, several miles east of the Columbia river, hence the FBI’s phony search near Ariel, because of the crosswind away from the Columbia river. No one opens the chute on the stairs, not at approx. 200 knots, and survives.( Don’t know where you and you alone get a 300 MPH airspeed from?) Dogs can pick up a scent from several miles away, depending on the wind. That whole area was thoroughly and repeatedly gleaned. Yeah, no chute, Tena bar doesn’t jibe for a location. Bruce keep insisting on $6200 cash, while everyone else says $5800. Everyone at this MB seems to be ignoring several things, like the core four letters, etc. Like the 200 plus special materials on the tie. Like the attache’ case. BTW, the maps clearly show that the Colombia river is not near LeCenter, nor Ariel. Searching Merwin damn was phony and misleading by the FBI brass. Most free fall jumpers stick their limbs out in a free fall, in order to slow their decent to 80-90 MPH. The evidence says that the UNSUB got away. Tena Bar evidence doesn’t jibe. This particular skyjacking was a very sophisticated and well planned operation, he had ALL of his ducks in a row. Whether $6200 or $5800, where’s the bulk of the loot?! Again, the taunting documents show that their author had inside crime scene knowledge, which is more support showing that he survived. The Playboy cutouts are what I’m mainly referring to here. BTW, you think that this rather smart UNSUB individual is gonna hike out of the wilderness in loafers? The core four letters anchor everything in this Cooper caper. I think that the many messages in this operation was what he was after and not the loot.
Terry, what scent did the dogs search for?
nothing in the files give any real indication of a positive location of the jump. they will tell you today “we think, or we believe he jumped (here)”
Bruce making a name for himself. He was the guest on a radio talk show in Spokane, WA, today ….. talking about ….. what else….. DBC.
Thanks you, TC, for the kudos. Patriot Radio in Spokane. Caleb Collier was the host. I was filling in for Galen who was the original guest, but Galen had to be in court and asked me to cover.
Reblogged this on Marty Andrade and commented:
Detailed report on the DB Cooper Forum last week in Portland:
Shutter45, the FBI files show that a Portland based radar station and NWA’s flight data recorder concurred that their data pointed to a jump location just east of the center of Le Center, WA. This is the only area in that part of the world that has large areas of conjoined plowed fields, and it’s right near I5. Do you want me to cite the FBI FOIA file location too?
I like this thread because it deals with details about the tie. This whole business about a Tektronix inc connection is what caught my interest and brought me here. Yeah, I know, I’m the crazy SOB that links the Ramsey case, but the evidence drives this situation. As a matter of fact, it clarified the evidence that I was seeing on the Ramsey ransom note. I’ll come back to this point, but first this from Bruce’s article:
The McCrone labs used a high-end ASPEX 3025 SEM electron microscope to examine the tie particles. Kaye says they found additional Antimony, Cerium, Cerium Lanthanum, and other phosphors, and Barium, plus cutting tool and match-head residues, and elements of gold and platinum, presumably from the tie clip of other jewelry use with the tie. Also, the NaCl was an industrial type of salt, and not the kind of table salt found on French Fries. In addition, they also found a substance called “frit,” which is a powder used to fuse glasses together, and shards of stainless steel, but not regular steel.
Taken in sum, Kaye offered this analysis:
The phosphors, ceriums and antimony are indicative of cathode ray tube manufacturing. The cutting tool residues also suggest a manufacturing environment, as does the stainless steel and frit. Kaye said that the primary location for these kinds of elements would be the Tektronix plant in Portland, which was the leading manufacturer of oscilloscopes in the country in 1971. Lastly, the match head residues indicate a heavy smoker, and the tie itself suggests a manager or engineer.
“This is the hottest lead in Cooper World,” Kaye pronounced.”
I agree, it is by far a very hot lead. On the second page and second line of the Ramsey ransom note, is the crossed out word “delivery”. The three examples of the word “delivery” on the first page are of very key importance, and clearly show intentional murder and threats to John Ramsey. Using my ‘paint’ feature in Windows to isolate the cross-out portion from the word “delivery,” I got the image of an old time boat-tailed speedster. At first this queer little image didn’t make much sense, because it has a image of a figurine lifting the front of the car and an a-frame “jack” stand in place. Then came a few years later the Tektronix hint from Bruce A. Smith on YouTube, and I then recalled that early service manuals for Tektronix oscilloscopes have the drawing of a midget racer in the horizontal sweep amplifier section, to depict the high speed CRT beam retrace function. A midget racer is a boat-tailed speedster, and a person can lift the front of a midget racer by themselves and put it on a “jack’ stand too. Bear in mind that this is only one area of hints linking these two cases. I think that a thorough study of the function of Lanthanum Tantalate alloy particles, is of very key importance to study and understanding of the Cooper caper.
Would you rather parachute into a ground target in a plowed field near LeCenter, or risk landing randomly in boulders near Ariel and/or risk getting a pine tree up your ass?
Go read FBI file at 2941, Chapter 13, material as released at FBI VAULT. That one page document will show that a package was delivered by FBI Seattle FO to SFO FO on 12/2/71 which contained info on exact flightpath of 305. No doubt, charting generated by civilian or military radar data.
who is debating the flight path?
Shutter, do you know the true flight path? If yes, what’s your basis of knowledge? If acquired from others, how do you know that their information is accurate?
Gypsy23, yes, that sounds about right. The location of the rear door placard find, suggests that the plane was on the accepted flight path, which supports the statement and find that that same pathway was very near LeCenter. BTW, I think the finding of frit on the tie is very interesting indeed.
I guess that what it’s gonna take, is to show exactly how Cooper acquired his ground target. In the meanwhile consider this: RCA, for one source, sells or has sold business card devices that convert infrared directly into visible red light. To use them, you’d charge them up under a bright light, then test for a flashing pattern coming from an infrared remote control. Infrared controls are the way TV’s and other devices are controlled these days. The infrared or IR receiver, which is a modified photo diode that’s in the TV set, undoubtedly uses special materials related to those found on the Cooper tie. These have a special optical filter in front of them that is somewhat purple in color, which serves to filter or reduced ambient light, which is exactly what Cooper’s wrap-around sunglasses could have done.
However, Cooper could also have simply done a timed free fall, pulling the rip cord nearer the ground. The city of LeCenter was probably well lit at the time of the day.
Fkyjack says: FLYJACK says:
November 26, 2018 at 10:46 am ; There weren’t new bills found.. there were new bill numbers identified.. big difference.
If new bill numbers are found and numbers are unique to a bill then doesnt that mean new never before counted pieces of a bill were found/identified? Flyjack needs to learn some logic! Ha Ha Ha
Nope. False assumption.
Not all bills had legible serial numbers. They put together frags to ID serial numbers not new bills.
I am astounded. Every printed paper bill has a unique serial number, no other printed paper bill has! That is a fact. Serial numbers are unique and used to identify each individual bill. Serial numbers and the printed paper they are on are INSEPARABLE! Like the nose on your head. Most people only have on nose per head!
But dyslexiacs could get this confused and claim otherwise! Dyslexia is a learning disorder that involves difficulty reading due to problems identifying speech sounds and learning how they relate to letters and words (decoding). Also called reading disability, dyslexia affects areas of the brain that process language. …
A person with Dyslexi could claim that serial numbers and the paper bills they are on do not go together! And when new serial numbers are found that does not mean new paper bills have been found! People with Dyslexia often get basic logic confused …
In fact, complete bills have two printed serial numbers..
TBAR bills were not complete, basic logic.
Dumbass. One serial number per bill. Any discovery of a new previously unseen serial number is a discovery of the paper the damned serial number is printed on! Ie. a new bill. Serial numbers and paper bills go together. What does “TBAR bills were not complete, basic logic.” have to do with this. You keep appealing to BASIC LOGIC but you have none. I guess you are just one more Cooper Vortex Leader – ha ha ha. But you are entertaining in your moronism – keep it coming clown. Ha Ha Ha.
How stupid will this get!
Your argument would only be valid if all 290 bills were ID’d via their serial numbers, they weren’t. Many bills and fragments were not ID’d. The premise is bogus and the logic is flawed.
This bill is not ID’d…
https://historical.ha.com/itm/transportation/aviation/-d-b-cooper-1971-ransom-money-unknown-series-20-federal-reserve-note-certified-and-encapsulated-by-pcgs-currency-with/a/6006-47237.s
Sounds like Meyer’s nonsense… the Cooper world is full of these ignorant trolls.
There are two numbers printed on each bill. THE SAME NUMBER. That means two opportunities to ID a single bill.
This is really really simple, the FBI did not ID 290 serial numbers from the bills and fragments. In fact, they have never shown how they got that 290 number, but there are only two ways. They can count the bills with and without identifiable serial numbers but it wouldn’t be very accurate or they could compare the known serial numbers to Micro list. They claimed it was in the same order. If you could match and ID the top and bottom bills then there would be 100 per packet. Maybe they did it that way.
This is starting to sound like the good ol days at the DZ………..
Yep, the db cooper wild, wild west.
PARDON YOUR BUTT..lighten up!
Reverse engineer the Cooper caper kids…he had his ducks in a row. The crime was a paramilitary type of operation, CIA stuff, it had to have taken a thorough knowledge base, that’s what the many pieces of evidence shows, when taken all together.
We now know how stupid this will get.
Let me guess. Flyjerk has a suspect too! Odds are 100% He fits the profile.
Can I get bread sticks with this ? Extra cheese?
Everyone one please remember: (Flyjack says) There are two numbers printed on each bill. THE SAME NUMBER. That means two opportunities to ID a single bill.
This has nothing to do with anything but Flyjack throws these things out to confuse and redirect the original question which was at issue. Flyjack has studied Robert M Blevins!
Watch the peanut vanish under the cup! Good luck.
I dont think FLYJACK and Robert Blevins are on the same flight path. Those two wouldn’t last together for 5 minutes.
Well, it would be nice if we can keep the discussion civil. Whether it was $6200 or $5800 isn’t all that big of a deal. It’s whether the forensic evidence shows whether those same bills actually spent time at the T-bar location or somewhere else. They don’t belong at T-bar. Could they have fallen off of the rear stairs and into where the Columbia runs east-west?
The evidence that the UNSUB jumped near LeCenter, is pretty compelling.
I listened to Uncle Bruce’s latest radio show interview on YouTube last night, it was pretty interesting. I’ll review it again.
From Uncle Bruce’s article: First to speak was parachute expert, Mark Metzler, known in DB Cooper chat rooms as “377.” Metzler described in detail the differences in construction between military and civilian parachutes, claiming that skydivers using sport chutes such as the Pioneer Steinthal that was found unused on Cooper’s plane when it landed for refueling in Reno, Nevada, must deploy at speeds below 150 mph. However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds. Cooper’s plane, Flight 305 was traveling closer to 200 mph when Cooper jumped, and thus the military chute that might have been aboard, such as a NB-6 or NB-8 – both emergency parachutes for navy fliers – would have been adequate. Metzler said that the NB-8 would most likely contain a 28-foot C-9 parachute, whereas the NB-6 would contain a 26-foot conical chute.
But the exact nature of the parachute DB Cooper used is shrouded in mystery. The FBI’s technical expert on parachutes, Earl Cossey, says Cooper had a NB-6 or NB-8. However, Norman Hayden, whom FBI documents reveal delivered these back chutes to NWO and owned them, says he only gave civilian Pioneer rigs containing Steinthals. FBI documents and statements by case agents vary greatly on this subject and Cooper World reels, trying to resolve this dilemma. Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.
” However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds.”(?) Yeah, but what about the human body, can it handle a sudden stop from much higher speeds? Kind of a bag of mixed information here, I’d say. So again, where would you rather land? In a nice plowed field in your penny loafers, where the cross wind gives you a nice little “step off,” or risk getting a pine tree in suppository form, or break a ankle or leg on some rocks, then have to hike out of the wilderness with or without the loot? That would be kind of dumb in an otherwise very sophisticated and meticulously planned out and executed crime, I’d say! The FBI’s FOIA records are clear, Cooper jumped very near LeCenter, not Ariel. The Ariel location is based on a series of false assumptions.
“Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.” Yeah, how about that? What are the chances that someone is gonna go out of their way to bump off this one particular guy in his own garage? Where’s the motive? Who have we all noted the presence of in the Cooper community orb, that makes not so thinly veiled death threats in recent times? Hmmm?
Really enjoyed Bruce’s last radio show. If you have the link, Terry, put it up for everyone to hear.
Shutter, when you read this remove my account and all my posts from your forum. I have had it with the disrespect and ignorance there, long overdue… There is no critical discussion there, NONE.
FLYJACK: reconsider this request. Cooper case causes lots of hard feelings because of some very strong personalities. Look at Blevins. He would never ask to be removed, but removed he was. Everyone wanted his ass gone. So think about it again.
Is a disagreement with one or two individuals worth your departure, when no one else has complained about you?
Yeah, Fly, I’ll miss you. Please stick around.
I’ll stick around just not on that forum, Shutter has now blocked my IP.. but somebody tell him I already posted “NO ACCENT” per FBI… clearly he doesn’t read my comments as I suspected. Maybe he can find it before he deletes my account and posts..
It is the environment that I have lost all respect for. Closed minded, adversarial, combative, abusive and in some cases gross ignorance/bad logic. IMO, it should be supportive, respectful, open minded, compassionate and collaborative. That doesn’t mean you have to agree but I see no benefit in participating in that current environment. It is toxic for intellectual exploration and critical thinking.
And he cried “wee wee wee wee all the way home” …. after insulting multiple people over years then finally being given time off, then finally tangling with the Mod! Multiple people turns thumbs down on his suspect and some of his crazy ideas … so now its their fault and Shutter is running an unfair forum which he can;t abide? Hey Bozo – you want a free egg on your beer too? You want worshipers? You want apologies? Bruce will give you sympathy but he wont be able to engineer a political revolution for you! This is fricking hilarious! Maybe it will lead to the first marriage in Cooperdom? Ha Ha Ha.
Hello, MeyerLouie…
I thought Meyer was banned by Bruce.
What you’re looking for sounds ideal, Fly. I haven’t seen it yet, neither at the DZ, here, and certainly not at the Forum. Perhaps a private, more secure “college” of Cooper minds is needed. My email is brucesmith At rainierconnect Dot com. Feel free to share your thoughts on a more individualized basis.
Bruce us always fair minded.
U or next to I on the keyboard. You hit the U !
Lol. It was the Hennessy, Pard.
“college” of Cooper minds is needed” _ including you of course. Are you going to self destruct, explode with accusations, and leave Shutter’s forum too, the way Flyboy did? We will watch for it at Shutter;s forum, if you are man enough. Maybe you and Flyboy can show us what a ““college” of Cooper minds is needed” really is.
Meyer,, why so much anger and hate, not to mention repeated threats of violence?
Website for undiscovered geniuses – http://www.ideachampions.com/undiscovered_genius.shtml
Its the only alternative to a Cooper forum –
FLYJACK says:
December 8, 2018 at 7:50 am
Meyer,, why so much anger and hate, not to mention repeated threats of violence?
I agree, why don’t you go the way of Blevins? Your PARDON ME BUT handle and persona is harassment. You’re acting like an uncivilized jerk.
That wasn’t Meyer Louie.
Either Meyer or Georger… doesn’t matter.. ignorant trolls are a dime a dozen
Shutter…. Delete my account and posts. You can keep my IP blocked of course.
FBI agent: “I observed the pilot of the Boeing 727 airplane, Eastern Airlines Flight XXX, exit down the rear ramp. The pilot whom I had observed’ earlier sitting in the cockpit of the aircraft was closely followed by a white male, 40-45 years of age, 5’10”- 6′ in height, 175-185 pounds, olive complexion with dark curly hair, combed straight back. This individual wore a dark suit with a white shirt and tie;”
Fly, your account was removed days ago. the post remain. they are part of a record and benefit nobody removing them. everything posted on a public forum becomes property of that forum.
Shutter
Technically that is true, but you offered to remove before, now you won’t.. since you never read them I’d think they are irrelevant.
That is precisely why I never posted the really good stuff…
The IP should no longer be blocked. I first removed your posting privileges until I seen you continuing to sign in on a site you despise so much and put a full block which automatically bans the IP address. then later I removed your account. the IP should be released from any ban. I had no reason to block you from viewing the site permanently.
Shutter
I don’t despise it, I just reached the end of my patience, discussion there is pointless, a waste of time, no benefit. Toxic. Many members agree with me.. they read it but rarely or never post. You fail to recognize it has become DZ V2.0..
I checked a few times to see if you removed my posts and deleted my account.. I had to laugh when you were asking questions that I had already posted the answers to… You never read my posts, obviously there is no reason to continue there, a waste of time.
Some irony, you don’t read my posts, block me then won’t delete them.. if you won’t delete them, I suggest you actually read them to answer some of your questions, but remember I held back the really good stuff as I never trusted that environment, I was right not to.
Good Luck, I do hope it gets better there. I couldn’t wait any longer.
So Fly, what’s the “good stuff?”
By the way, when I suggested that folks who want to communicate with other Cooperites but don’t want the nastiness common to the DBC Forum or here, I was simply suggesting that people email kindred spirits. I was not suggesting that a secret, private, underground “New DB Cooper Forum” be started.
Or call those you would like to chat with. My phone number is in the “contact” section of the MN, for those that are interested.
NOTICE TO ALL, ESPECIALLY NEW COMMENTERS:
I will be in New York for the holidays and not monitoring this site with anything close to the same regularity. Hence, two things will happen. First, bad behavior here will not be corrected until my return – then justice will be swift and decisive.
But more importantly, new posters here will not see their postings until I can get to “approve” their post. That will take time. Dave Shutter has given me a tablet that will give me some Internet access once I figure out how to work it. Further, I am hoping that Santa will give me a laptop so I can maintain some kind of regular cyber connectivity to everyone and everything, but that is still a Christmas wish at this point.
In the meantime, Merry Christmas to all. And I hope everyone lit their eighth candle last night, too. Good yontif! See y’all in the new year.
Fly, you sound just like Blevins and the rest. put up or shut up dude. that line is so old. and just like Blevins you take things out of context!
I told you why you were blocked. this all started with you wanting no part of the forum. removing comments gives broken threads with people trying to figure out what was said. Georger asked the same and I didn’t remove his either.
when is the movie coming out?
Shutter, I like you, you are nice guy but just not too bright, you can’t even figure out the simple stuff when I posted the answers for you. You don’t know what you don’t know.. my purpose has never been to convince anyone of anything, unlike most others. You think I actually care what people think, I am not selling anything. Your repeated accusations are false, insulting and disrespectful.. your reasoning and logic poor and self awareness vague.. There is no middle ground, no discourse from there, move on. I wish your forum success. It just wasn’t a place for me.
Fly, where are you going to post your “good stuff?” Some of us would like to know.
Good question,, I have enough for a book but I am not interested in writing a book, not my thing. I am really only doing this for myself. Sorry Shutter. There is still more info coming and the research hasn’t concluded.. It can’t be presented in fragmented bits like Shutter’s forum tended to, it needs a comprehensive context. Whether it leads to a resolution or not it is really fascinating stuff. At some point, I’ll have to figure out some way to pull it all together but it would be a big job and I am lazy. I like the critical thinking, research, discovery and puzzles, not presenting the solution.
Typical Blevins response. are we going to go 100 comments like him now? you keep saying you don’t care what anyone thinks but you have posted over 200 times the same stuff, and now you are here?
I don’t pay attention to some of the things you post. that doesn’t make me stupid! I just get tired of the same old thing. one tends to gloss over them. you are similar to Blevins when it come to being confronted. you put things on the table for all to see and see what happens. you get mad when it doesn’t go your way. I have no control over that.
Snow asked you over a week ago other than fitting and looking like Cooper what else do you have to add…(crickets) you never responded to him. see comment below.
“So basically, you’re just saying Frederick Hahneman was Cooper?
The main “evidence” is similarity to the sketch?
Or is there other evidence?
I’m not sure what’s new. Surely the FBI had all the “info” you’re claiming…and they decided “not Cooper”
Why do you decide “Cooper” instead?”
Personally, as I’ve said in the past. this was a short period after Cooper and I tend to believe they looked into him very well. if not, then they are the stupid one’s. it’s not a suspect someone tried to push on them to look at. they knew exactly who he was.
You just don’t get it..
You are again insulting me from a position of sheer ignorance. That is the very essence of your forum. I hoped you would rise above it. There are some good people there, give them space to intellectually explore without fear of threats, insults and dismissiveness.
I am not interested in responding to the same insults you engaged in on your forum and bring it here, if you want to contact me privately about something specific, feel free to do so.
How about a nice, long essay at the Mountain News? Or a multi-part treatment of your findings?
I thought about that but it isn’t quite complete and hate writing, this subject is too complex for an essay. I’ll think about some way to do it.
Keep that pen moving, Fly…
In the meantime, I ask everyone to consider this:
The DB Cooper Corned Beef College To Meet in NYC
Despite Georger’s rumors at the DB Cooper Forum, the only real DB Cooper College that I know of is the NY Corned Beef Colloquium of Cooperites. We will be meeting at the 2nd Ave Deli in Manhattan, either shortly before Christmas or after the 1st of the Year. Best pastrami in the Big Apple, Dice says, so I say we head there. Email me for details, or call me in New York, where I am heading Dec. 13 from WA for an extended stay. Email me this week in WA to make sure I know you want to get the details on when and where, and my number in NY. It’s a landline. I will also have my cell phone, but reception in the family home on LI is lousy. Again, please email me for the number.
Dave Shutter has given me a tablet to stay in touch with y’all by email, in an effort to prevent a repeat of certain recent events that were slightly unpleasant… re: last summer and the unexpected visits by the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department AND certain folks from Cooper World… But I gotta learn how to use it, get Internet connections, and such.
Brian, Dovid, and all other dwellers of the Cooper Vortex in the NY-NJ-CT sector are welcome. I’m voting for a late lunch. 3 pm?
Hey Bruce, we talked about this several months back. I may well be in your neighborhood sometime around New Year’s Day. Email me your NY number. I look forward to meeting some of the East Coast contingent.
I get it Fly, trust me.
Professor Bruce Smith, PhD, I suppose. Or, would you rather be just Dr. Smith?
TC, “Uncle Bruce” or “Cousin Brucie” are fine with me. But you can call me what you’d like. Just don’t call me late to dinner….
The Corned Beef College is weighing in. So far: Dice from the DBCF, but it has to be after 8pm, Lenny Depaul from a recent DB Cooper shoot on the Travel Channel – but not on Wednesday, Brian R and the “contingent” from New Jersey. But not Dovid, alas.
Corned Beef College…now I’m getting very hungry!
I’ve post some comments from here to Nanette Barto’s MB, so I’m gonna share this comment that I just made on her/my Cooper thread, it’s intended to be “food for thought”:
Nanette, I just reviewed the “DAN COoper” signature on the Northwest Orient Skyjack/ NORJACK ticket, and it even has a JT hint in the way the letter p was made. He used both upper and lower case letter o’s, which match up in his historical documents. He implied a letter z with the way he structured the letter N. He put the slanted crossbar in the capital letter A. All of it adds up as proof that he was the same person that sent the taunting letter’s and cutouts after the skyjacking. All Zodiac Jack 101, every bit of it. And yes, Jack Tarrance absolutely fits all of the criteria of the evidence. He is by far the best suspect in the NORJACK case. His writing on that ticket was very deliberately structured. The smaller letter o is the “hoopsnake” type of o, as found on the other documents and especially the Ramsey ransom note. ( actually, perhaps “DAN COopEr” would be a better description of the letter types on the airline ticket.)
By doing all of those deliberate details to the airline ticket signature, he encrypted that ticket. What FBI?
Cooper didn’t write on the ticket….
shutter45 says:
December 10, 2018 at 12:45 pm
Cooper didn’t write on the ticket….
Please explain this remark to me. Yeah, for one thing his name wasn’t necessarily “Cooper.” What is your point, shutter45?
Shutter is saying that only the ticket agent wrote on the ticket. Cooper wouldn’t. He recalled all of his notes back and jumped with them. No traces.
That’s not been the conventional report that I’ve heard. I’t been reported that the UNSUB filled out the ticket himself.
The question of who wrote the ticket is controversial. However, the overwhelming number of principals involved and investigators claim that the ticket agent filled out the ticket by himself and that Dan Cooper did not. Unfortunately, the ticket agent – and I forget his name – is deceased and can not answer the question more definitively.
Fueling the controversy is Tom Colbert, who often and loudly claims that the “unsub” as you call him, filled out the ticket based upon a vague inference from Larry Carr.
That has never been the practice of ticket agents. They have always filled out the tickets.
Nevertheless, the ticket has the artifacts that I’ve pointed out. To me, the standout item is the letter p, having been constructed in two separated pieces. This same characteristic also stands out in the documents that followed the skyjacking, showing that he placed special emphasis on this particular detail. There are actually many more points that I can make about that ticket hand printing.
That has been the general understanding in Norjak, TC. In fact, Bill Mitchell presented his ticket to several investigators at eh DZ and the Forum to show that the handwriting between his tix and Cooper’s is similar enough to say that the same guy filled it out.
Yup, Colbert is the only one I know advancing the idea that Cooper wrote on the ticket.
Bruce, I have a puzzle for you,,
Tom Kaye discovered the silver nitrate on the blackened bills and concluded it was from FBI fingerprint testing that was never reported. That may be, however, I found that silver nitrate was also used as a marker for ransom/stolen money, a precurser to dye-packs. They sprayed or dipped some bills in silver nitrate, bills would turn black and be “marked” as well as the hands of anyone who touched them. It is more likely the FBI would withhold bill marking than fingerprint testing.
If the TBAR bills were black prior to the FBI then the silver nitrate may be from “marking”.
The Fazio’s and Brian claimed there were black bills.. before the FBI could fingerprint them.
“Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others had darkened in color. “They still had rubber bands on them,” Ingram says. “I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn’t really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn’t been touched.”
Fazio..
“Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition.”
If the TBAR bills were marked with silver nitrate that may explain why they were discarded.
If you can reach out to Brian,,
1. Ask him if some bills were blackened before the FBI took them? Fazio?
2. Ask him where “exactly” the rubber band fragments were found? tops and bottoms of all 3 packets or only some? Try to determine if each individual packet was entirely surrounded by rubber bands or the three packets could have been banded together as one bundle.
Another possibility is.. if the FBI did mark with silver nitrate they may have rewrapped only the packets they marked..
One other note: the Ingrams washed the Bill’s with liquid dishwashing soap before taking them to the FBI.
Will do in the near future. Family matters and the holidays are first, though.
Bruce,
No rush, we have time before the NORJAK 50th anniversary…
If accurate, with Brian and Fazio “apparently” seeing black bills before the FBI could fingerprint test then the bills may have been marked with silver nitrate and discarded by the hijacker. That would undermine the “died in the jump” narrative and open up new possibilities. Theoretically, of course.
Tom Kaye looked for early images of blackened bills but found none. He used that to conclude the silver nitrate was from later fingerprint tests which were never disclosed. However, if the FBI did mark the bills and held that back they wouldn’t allow such images. Blackened bills did show up in 1986 images. Brian’s and Fazio’s statements seem to contradict Toms’ premise.. Can they be confirmed?
It all hinges on you Bruce, the entire case may turn here, no pressure though.
Everybody have a Merry Christmas and Holiday and take time to reflect on things that really matter in life.
I seem to recall a Walter Cronkite report where he stated that the hijacker “wrote” Dan Cooper as his name on the ticket. I also recall other reports claiming that the only sample they had of Cooper’s handwriting was on that ticket. I’m not just talking about “tix” here, I’m pointing these facts out about the hand printing details: “DAn COopEr,” however this description isn’t completely sufficient. The letter N was drawn small (half size), but as an upper case letter N, using 4 strokes. Large capital letter’s C and O, followed by a ‘diminished in size’ letter o, and note the different degrees at which the strokes of these two letter O’s start at. The small letter p is broken into two distinctive parts, with the open loop of that letter starting at about 1:30 vs a 10:00 o’clock position. The letter E is rather large, with the center crossbar crowding the top of what appears to be a one stroke stem, top and bottom assembly. The letter r is a lower case drawing and is distinctively “cursive,” and not “block” printing. Go back and review the ‘swooping’ assembly of the letter D. Now review all of the taunting letters that followed the skyjacking, and you can plainly see that he most definitely manipulated the letter casing, size and styles, with very definitely added on structures. This is especially true of the Reno Nevada/Hospitality envelope and cutouts letter, in which he actually placed great emphasis on the same letters, as those on the ticket. Examine the “system” cutouts document, it has distinctively “dB COOper.” Emphasis was placed on the letter B and the three letters “COO.”
Oh, and don’t missed the “inverted” umlaut symbol, apparently intentionally placed under the half sized letter D on the “system that beats the system” cutouts document.
Tom K doesn’t believe the bills were black in 1971. I asked him if they ould of used the SN before Cooper got the money.
They had indelible dies for that type of thing. Very popular in high school fire alarms to mark kids setting off the alarm.
TK
A quote from Kaye’s site..
“a law enforcement officer mentioned that silver nitrate that was used in the early 70’s to detect fingerprints. This treatment had the negative side effect of eventually turning the evidence black. Commercially available nitrate test strips were employed and the results were clearly positive. Further examination of the news photos from 1971 did not show any black bills. Although there was no record of any testing done on the bills prior to this analysis, the data indicates the blackened bills were checked for fingerprints using silver nitrate at some point in the 70’s.”
I assume the two years are typos.. money news photos were in 1980 not 1971, and FBI would have used SN for fingerprints in the 80’s, not 70’s.
Typos aside,, Tom may be correct, it is one possibility. However, he appears to justify it by claiming no photos of black bills. It appears that Brian and Fazio have claimed to see the black bills before the FBI got them in 1980, if so then the silver nitrate must have been applied in 1971. It was used to mark money.
Nonsense. Learn how to read.
where did you read about this. Tom doesn’t believe they were black until they checked for prints. this was what he told me hours ago.
read what exactly?
I know what Tom believes,, he may be correct but both Brian and Fazio have stated they saw blackened bills before the FBI would have used the SN,, Their statements need to be checked.. if they did see black bills before the FBI could have used SN, it may have been applied in 1971.
where did you read that the Fazio’s & Brian made the “blackened bills”
The quotes are above in my response to Bruce. That is why they need to be checked.
“Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others had darkened in color. “They still had rubber bands on them,” Ingram says. “I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn’t really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn’t been touched.”
Fazio..
“Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition.”
Nonsense. Total crap.
It turns black in minutes.
FALSE.
sorry, working on my overhead projector…where did you read these guys made this claim about the bills?
I kinda remember Al Fazio saying something to me about some bills he saw were discolored and black. I’ll have to check my notes. At the time, I kinda rolled by eyeballs a bit because he said a few things that no one else was saying, such as NO SHARDS in the SAND, and that pieces were on the tideline even though he was a half-day late to the beach party…
links,,
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Bew9IOjNCGQC&pg=PA76&dq=%22Some+pieces+were+larger+than+others.+Others+had+darkened+in+color.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikoZ_SqJnfAhWeIDQIHRaRCd0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22Some%20pieces%20were%20larger%20than%20others.%20Others%20had%20darkened%20in%20color.%22&f=false
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3631560#3631560
The quote is “others had darkened in color”. Says nothing about black or blackened – idiot!
Meyer, why would some “darken” and others not? Should that be investigated?
Did Bruce let Meyer back on the site?
What bills did they see, did the family show the money to them prior to taking it home?
I think we have enough myths in this case.
This is really simple, Brian and Fazio claimed seeing darkened bills, Bruce suggested checking with Brian to clarify. I suggested also asking about the rubber band frags.
Something wrong with that?
Cooper failed to see any black bills….darken in color is with age and being wet.
You don’t know any of that to be true. Might be, might not be.
It is simple. You just dont see or accept it. Thats where it gets really really really complicated. ‘This is really simple, Brian and Fazio claimed seeing darkened bills,’ and the answer is: “They didn’t! They did not see what you are claiming they saw”. But, you can claim I’m anybody you want me to be. I don’t care – ha ha ha.
Correct, I don’t accept assumptions as fact. Seems to be a common error in the Cooper world..
More true than not….
Truth is binary, you may mean more likely than not..
Have you read about SN fingerprinting, it is not used for wet surfaces and only for very recent prints… The more I read about it the less likely I believe it was used for fingerprinting the TBAR money. Even Snowmman back on DZ doubted it.
It would not turn the bills black in minutes, the prints show within 5-30 minutes but the entire surface gradually turns black at a rate depending on UV exposure.
The Ingrams used Clorox on the bills, it contains sodium chloride which reacts with SN and make SN fingerprinting useless.
If Brian did see darkened bills as he claimed and it was before the FBI got them then the SN was likely applied in 1971, the only reason at that time would be to mark the bills. that is info the FBI would holdback.
The small holes in the bills indicate that bacteria ate through the bills, the same goes for the darkened areas. Humus, or black soil is made by bacteria, as in composting, which explains the darkened areas. I’ve been waiting for Tom Kaye’s report about where the bills might have originated from? Upstream? Under soil? Soil under water? Skip the speculations, please.
BTW, why if Blevins was banned, am I now seeing postings under his name, in this thread? Menacing? I’d say so. Potentially more disinformation from Blevins? Definitely!
Tom Kaye looked for news images of blackened bills taken in 1980 and found none. He used that as a premise to support his FBI SN use for fingerprinting. Tom tested the darkened bills and found SN. If Brian did see blackened bills prior to the FBI getting them it undermines Tom Kaye’s argument. Further, using SN for fingerprinting the TBAR bills makes no sense. It is still possible but it also possible that the bills were marked with SN in 1971. If so, it may explain why those 3 packets were discarded. It is worth pursuing whether it pans out or not.
Note to All:
Soon, I will be traveling to New York for an extended stay to deal with family matters. That means I will not be posting here, nor monitoring the posts. Hence, y’all gotta be on your best behavior.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone!
The elves will be at work in your absence, Bruce.
Well, I thought about posting here while Bruce was gone, but decided against it. 🙂
Have a great Christmas, Cooper fans.
However….in case any of you are trying to find me, we’ve mostly moved our Cooper Stuff over to Quora, the Q and A site.
He’s baaaa…..ck. Here I thought “pardon me” WAS Blevins. Must be someone else arguing with FLYJACK. Maybe GEORGER.
.
If Blevins was banned, why am I currently seeing postings here under his name?
Establishing a total ban on Blevins is difficult but not impossible. Since he could post here under a plethora of names and email addresses, one has to go to the source of his Internet connection. I will do that if I have to, but I thought it was more work than I wanted to undertake until now. Still pondering.
How can Christmas be Merry with Blevins back in the mix? Bruce, you are messing with us, correct?
Where’s the moderator when we need. This is gonna turn into a free for all with Bruce departed, Blevins here and FLY and PARD mixing it up.
If he has any dignity what so ever he will not attempt to post where is has been banned. I kept telling people he’s always afraid of others doing exactly what he does himself. if you don’t recall he would shutdown his forum while away so someone like him wouldn’t pull any dirty tricks!
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL – WELL MOST! Ha Ha ha.
Is this Blevins screwing with everybody
…. again? Hell of a Christmas gift.
No TED. Get a life!
No. Definitely GEORGER. Syntax, style, meanness, anger, and common phraseology with an arrogant manner is a dead give away. Go back to Pocohantos, fella.
Definitely GEORGER. Syntax, style, meanness, anger, and common phraseology with an arrogant manner is a dead give away. Go back to Pocohantos, fella.
Hilarious absurdity.
Tonight featured Cooper move: “Chato’s Land” (1972) In 1870s New Mexico, a half-breed kills a bigoted sheriff in self-defense but the posse that eventually hunts him finds itself in dangerous territory. Director: Michael Winner. Writer: Gerald Wilson. Stars: Charles Bronson, Jack Palance, James Whitmore | See full cast & crew » ch430 STZWS. See yawl there!
Thanks, Georger.
The Cooper Vortex just released their latest podcast which I recorded in Portland the day before the conference. I talk about NORJAK about Sheridan Peterson in particular.
https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-alive-eric-ulis/
This guy picks up where Blevins left off: PARDON ME BUT says:
December 15, 2018 at 8:39 pm
Tonight featured Cooper move: “Chato’s Land” (1972) In 1870s New Mexico, a half-breed kills a bigoted sheriff in self-defense but the posse that eventually hunts him finds itself in dangerous territory. Director: Michael Winner. Writer: Gerald Wilson. Stars: Charles Bronson, Jack Palance, James Whitmore | See full cast & crew » ch430 STZWS. See yawl there!
Terry, thats just Scrooge being Scrooge at Christmas. Pardon Me But (Georger) is a denier, but we know the truth. Merry Christmas to all.
FBI vault – Cooper file #33 just posted…
2 years after NORJAK and 1.5 years after Hahneman was in custody for the EAL hijacking the FBI was still showing his photos to NORJAK witnesses.. He hadn’t been eliminated as a Cooper suspect. In fact, so far, I have never seen any evidence that he was ever eliminated.
It’s not surprising to me that the FBI operates that way. Most people don’t realize that the FBI is a political arm of the US government, but who do they all answer to? Hoover became a powerful bureaucratic entity once he got the big appropriations following his take down of John Dillinger. A lot of politicians feared Hoover, because he had files on EVERYBODY that was anybody. I couldn’t find a good picture of Hahnenman on the net. I think that it’s really important that the Cooper community researchers study the airline ticket and the documents that followed the skyjacking. You can see a correlation of how the DAn COopEr signature compares to how, for one example; the Hospitality envelope and letter were constructed. Count the number of pen strokes that were used in making each letter of “DAn COopEr.” I assert that it was probably a common practice in those days for the passenger to fill out his or her own name on the ticket . Think about the probable confusion that could occur if the ticket agent is asking for a passenger’s name and the spelling of their name. No, I think the common practice was for the passenger to write in his or her name and hand it to the ticket agent. Think about concerns for a passenger’s privacy as well. Furthermore, it seems to me that the news media stated that the only sample that the FBI had of the hijacker handwriting, was on the airline ticket, and they went on to point out that COopEr didn’t leave the ransom note behind. It’s also typical of the lockstep media outlets to continue with the “DB Cooper” description of the case, when that was a completely wrongful description. There never was a “DB” Cooper, however, the taunting documents contained a “BD” Cooper description/name. In the course of my research, the “BD” Cooper hint is very important indeed, because one of the first cases we linked to the Zodiac killer cases was the 1947 Black Dahlia case. Former LA detective Steve Hodel makes this same linkage, however the evidence clearly shows that his dad was not the person that murdered cabbie Paul Stine. Paul Stine was the last “official” Zodiac killer victim. “The Zodiac killer” description was media hype that began right before the murder of Paul Stine. Bear in mind that there never was a “Zodiac killer,” only the ‘shock and awe’ media hype. None of the crimes that we link were what they seem. One of John Mark Karr’s soundbite statements was: “Things are not what they seem.” NORJACK was not what it seems…think about everything that there is in the NORJACK case for you to work with! How are ALL of the basic elements currently adding up?
December 6, 1973 they had 694 suspects and 596 were eliminated..98 suspects could Cooper since were unable to determine if they too have been eliminated! who are the 596 and who are the 98 remaining?
last time I checked. they don’t publicly eliminate very many suspects nor do we have all the information (files) the FBI has..
Error in numbers…694 suspects and 586 eliminated leaving 108..
Yep, and about 1000 more since 73.
Do you think it’s possible that the FBI could have cleared the real Cooper. I don’t have a suspect in mind when I say that, but suggesting that the may not fully understand everything that Cooper did or have some facts wrong.
The FBI doesn’t have a clue, Daniel. Nothing has changed since 11/24/71. He appeared and disappeared like an apparition, never to be seen again.
There never was a “DB” COopEr. Just a Dan Cooper comic book hero.
I know, yeah the DB Cooper cat burglar, but that didn’t stop the media from collectively continuing with the wrongful DB Cooper ‘cash cow’ hype.
Merry Christmas to every one. I do have a question for Terry. You have always talked about the Cooper, Zodiac, Ramsey, and other cases being linked. My question I have been researching the Zodiac Killer case and it makes me feel that the letters sent by the Zodiac may have been written with the writer possibly standing. I am suggesting that because of the slant in his writing, it would be more difficult to figure out who wrote it. Their regular writing isn’t probably like that, woulld it make harder to link the cases together and be able to tell they were committed by the same person.
While the handwriting comparisons to Jack Tarrance aren’t my forte’, I felt that even the simple ones done by Dennis Kaufman are very strong. Nanette fortified Dennis’ findings. YouTube NanetteB777. My involvement with the Ramsey case came right after I did a crash course in the Zodiac cases. I set out to disprove the statement “Jack’s signature is all over the Ramsey ransom note,” and this statement was made by an antagonist that I felt was doing more harm to Kaufman than good. Well, the letters JT practically dominate the entire so-called Ramsey ransom note, in both primary and secondary forms. The primary forms offer this basic message: “(It) exhausting…daughter watching…Speaking daughter being…money killing family think killing Victory.” That is only one form of encryption that I found on the RN, there are several more that I’ve identified and probably several more yet to be decoded. As far as the Zodiac writings done while standing up? Maybe? I do know that one or more of them was suspected to have been drawn with his non-dominant (left) hand.
I also see evidence that the FBI brass ran the NORJACK case off the rails, the same goes for Ramsey, but limited evidence of the same thing with the Zodiac case. However, the evidence that Meyer Lanski and other mob associates had dirt on J Edgar “Mary” Hoover goes back several decades. Too may eggs in the Hoover basket, directors need changing like elected officials need changing, like dirty underwear needs changing. The same goes for those in any position of power that can manipulate things like the FISA court etc, hint-hint!
Oh, I forgot to add that I mainly rely other items on the case documents, like figurines that repeat, the repeated treatment of keywords, intentionally misspelled words, rabbit hints, ‘jack rabbit’ nouns, the manipulation of double and triple meanings, his use and misuse of the period mark. Double postage, postage messages that reinforce, postmark dates and locations, time-date stamps on his documents, decimal GPS locations. Actually I see that he used as many of these kind of items as he possible could fit in. For instance, the so-called ransom note, in the Ramsey case, has figurines or structural hints in practically every single word he wrote and implied. Former Boulder DA, Alex Hunter, described the RN as “very fanciful.” When he made his televised speech the “…the list of suspects narrows, and soon only YOU will be on that list.” I only recently came to realize that the RN starts out with the light encryption “List>Mr Ramsey.” Did Hunter realize this artifact? I tend to think that he did. Well, the ‘little list/Mikato’ business is well established in Zodiac killer documents. The Mikato “I have a little list” lyrics or poem rings like Dr Seuss book. And, you have a Dr Seuss book left in the suitcase, along with a Duvet’ and Sham, at the Ramsey crime scene! I’m talking about a lot of evidence that he left a journal for us to track and “fOlLoW.” That last word is a very key hint to Jack Tarrance’s mother’s middle name, Flova, which is on the RN and hinted 6ea times on the 340 (Zodiac killer) cypher, and the Hospitality envelope in the Cooper case! And, I’m still finding things like this after 7 plus years of tenacity!
The zodiac letters handwritten slant heavily to to the right, which makes me that the writing hand wasn’t stationary. It seemed to move more freely. I believe it was done to make it harder to catch the writer of the letters. I can see some of linkages in the cases, whether or not they all go back to one person is something I don’t know. I truly don’t believe the Cooper case will be solved barring a death bed confession with evidence of the hijacking. I do think that the Ziidiac case will be solved. There is some possible DNA and with the ancestry DNA data bases they might be able to find a match. The Ramsey one I am not sure.
Also Terry, I just heard about something interesting with the Zodiac Killer case. In 1970 in Sacremento Nancy Bennallack was murdered, it wasn’t considered a Zodiac case because the killer broke into her apartment and killed her. The mmurder was a year and 2 weeks after the Paul Stine murder, and 2 days later the Halloween card was sent. What has my interest the police were able to get a DNA profile and are checking data bases. I hope that it is a Zodiac case, and the case is solved and with luck a criminal arrested and justice for the victim’s.
The Zodiac killer hype was part of an elaborate coverup for the true motive in the murder of Darlene Ferrin. She was stalked, the killer knew her name, she had witnessed a hit. The prior murder of Betty Lou Jensen was a case of the killer mistaking Jensen for Ferrin. The attack on Hartnell and Shepard was the beginning of the phony Zodiac hype. Both victims bled out, but Shepard received three times the number of stab wounds. If Hartnell had died, there would have been no report of the ominous executioners hood. Neither victim died immediately, showing precision work on the part of the killer. All drawn picture documents had only one “noun,” in common and that “noun” was the word “jack.” SFPD stated that they had a palm print, then the Zodiac hype basically went underground. Jack Tarrance dipped both of his hands in acid up to his wrists after the report of the palm print went out. NanetteB777 on YouTube is where to start. The Cooper skyjacking was predicted in the Halloween card, with the image of a passenger jet, but this was not the only hint. Ramsey case is linked by multiple items. OCCK is also linked. All shock and awe acts of organized crime, all involved cover-ups involving the lock-step MSM, even though they didn’t have monopolized control of the media in the days of the Cooper caper, like they do these days.
I have looked at the Halloween carc, but haven’t noticed the passenger jet.Where is it? I will look again to see if I can find it.
In the eye of the skeleton head.
Found it thanks.
There is a new suspect in the Zodiac case, they are calling Waterson but that’s not his real name. He is still alive. He did work at the Traverse Air Force Base. I don’t know much about him but his face resembles the sketch and he did have a hat on that looked like a pilot. The plane could definitely have been a clue to his identity.
New Years Prediction: the true, one and only, D.B. COOPER, will be determined in 2019. Mystery will be solved.
Unlikely. 2019 will be more of the same. People bickering, maybe going off to start a new forum somewhere. People unable or unwilling to agree on anything leading to total chaos. FLYJACK, Ullis, 377, Snowmman, Shutter, Kaye … Blevins!
………GEORGER……
It has been solved…
JOHNNIE GREENE! JOHNNIE GREENE! JOHNNIE GREENE! What a waste of natural resources.
Come on. A Green life precludes wasteful use of obnoxious gases. Get a Green life, Pocohontas.🤣
Who’s s bafoon? I said nothing…..
Georger is correct. Unsolveable mystery with baffoons and baboons running the asylum now. Johnnie Greene needs to go camping with Blevins for a week and see who comes out of the woods. My prediction: Big Foot.
FLYJACK- Hanneman is a good suspect, I am not positive that he was Cooper. What would be great if there was any DNA that could link a person to the hijacking. I had heard that the FBI had some Cooper hair, I know hair isn’t what the FBI would prefer to test, but if it could produce some DNA you could check data based, even ancestry ones and maybe get a hit.
Hahneman is the best suspect by a long shot. Nobody has all the info that I have so I wouldn’t expect others to reach the same conclusion. I still have some docs on the way, perhaps I can reveal more in the near future..
Shutter, you left out EU..
Hanneman is a bullshit story with no proof at all. By investigators who couldn’t detect a pimple on a bald ass. Blevins could do better.
Blevins does the samething “you don’t know what we know”
How in the world does that help anything?
Since TED can’t even spell Hahneman correctly, safe to assume he knows nothing about him and has no interest in solving the case.
I don’t think it’s a bullshit story. it’s a theory like all the others…I don’t see much difference than the others..
Your right. They’re ALL bullshit.
They all can’t be Cooper.. therefore they aren’t all equal.. one is better than the rest and that is Hahneman, by far. They aren’t the same, not even close. If you think they are, you are uninformed.
It’s like a spell takes over there bodies. I see it it in just about every person who has a suspect. they are right and we are wrong. how can all of them be right?
We don’t want the truth is another popular statement.
2019 rapidly approaching, and no movie yet?
Got milk 🙂
So, a suspect is invalidated because somebody pursues them as a suspect…
some crazy ass logic there…
Suspects should be evaluated on their own “merits”.. shouldn’t they?
None of them are Cooper…
a lot of people that look into this case simply don’t believe all these suspects for one reason or another. you can’t make someone believe without proof! “he looks like the sketch, he was in the military, he was a paratrooper. he worked in this field or that field etc. etc. it’s a broken record with you guys. then the hatred pops out. it’s up to you guys to show the proof. it’s not the other way around.
We don’t even have 100% proof he made it. that make the odds worse for a suspect.
I spoke with one of the guys from the Reca klan. no matter what I told this guy he didn’t want to believe anything. he firmly believes the flight flew east out of SeaTac. even after I told him so many would have to be wrong. SeaTac is wrong, the Air Force is wrong, all the guys watching the plane on radar are wrong? he told me pilots stated they fly out due east out of Seattle to Portland? he has all kinds of proof too that he’s not showing? he was a nice guy but extremely off the chart with the case.
Reca can be eliminated by facts.
Let me know if you have any facts that eliminate Hahneman..
Let me know when you are ready to prove he WAS Cooper….I got time 🙂
Do your own homework..
Not my job, sorry… 🙂
That’s another “suspect tactic”
I didn’t fill out the application for this suspect…YOU DID..it’s up to you to show the proof. I will gladly look over the evidence as I do all the others. you brought it to the table, so you need to show the cards. I don’t have them and neither does anyone else. the cards are in your hand. you either show them or you shouldn’t be claiming what you have been claiming. that’s simple logic right there.
I take it you have ALL the files the FBI has to make these claims? I doubt it. you have witnesses backing up this claim?
It isn’t a tactic, I started looking at Hahneman to answer that very question.. Why isn’t it Hahneman?
I found more evidence to implicate him and none to exclude and none that the FBI ever eliminated him..
You are the one that has it backasswards. You don’t have to accept a suspect as Cooper but you never reject without evidence.
You have 100% rejected Hahneman without any evidence but instead from ignorance. Complete lack of logic and critical thinking. Based on that your opinion is meaningless. I have no interest in showing evidence to people whose opinions/thinking I don’t respect.
Shutter is right. Everyone with a pet suspect either retires early or gets carted off in a Posey belt. Look what happened to Skipp Porteous. Some may say Blevins drove Skipp nutz, but who drove Blevins over the edge? You Cooper theorists are all destined for the basement in the looney bin. All of you.
I really don’t care, nor do I need critical thinking on suspects. they always end up floating around the Cooper vortex for years on end. IMO, it’s a waste of time. you don’t think so and that’s fine as well. I look at the evidence. I don’t like constantly going down rabbit holes with suspects.
I have seen some evidence, including witnesses rejecting. this was a guy who wasn’t brought to the FBI. he was on there radar and I’m sure they checked into him. they put suspects through a lot from people just calling and saying a guy looks like the sketch.
The first thing that should be done is find out if the FBI knew where he was. you guys work up a whole theory without any proof of where a suspect was that day. it’s usually done backwards with Cooper. you have to find out where he was to proceed to anything past that! no, it’s not easy, but it appears to be a lot easier building it up to look like he’s Cooper.
I’m entitled to an opinion. my opinion is not good with suspects due to them always ending up with nothing. over a thousands suspects and it appears the FBI shares my opinion. it got very old with them. lots of rabbit holes. the Cooper story needs people like you but you can’t bash every person who disagree’s with your theory!
Can’t comment on other suspects, but Shutter is wrong on Hahneman.
The FBI looked at Hahneman as a serious suspect for at least two years after NORJAK.. they have never admitted that he was ever eliminated yet Shutter knows he wasn’t Cooper without any evidence.
Hahneman died well before the tie DNA.. putting him on the plane would be very difficult for them.
So, I ask Shutter to explain the evidence backing up his conclusion to 100% eliminate Hahneman and he has nothing. Not having evidence to eliminate isn’t evidence to accept, it just exposes his poor logic.
Shutter,
Your opinion is all yours, even if it is irrational.
Not all suspects are equal. Lumping and attacking them together is “association fallacy”.
You don’t have all the evidence. You don’t know what you don’t know.
I am not trying to convince you or anyone that Hahneman is Cooper, you have rejected him based on ZERO evidence. That is what I am criticizing and disappointed in. If I only knew what you know about Hahneman I would not accept him as Cooper either but I wouldn’t reject him.
It is a legitimate question to ask and seek.. “Why was Hahneman not Cooper?” even Snowmman asked Larry Carr that question, he never answered.
My evaluation of the evidence I have is that he is by far the best suspect and I haven’t found anything to eliminate or that the FBI ever did eliminate him.
I am not bashing your opinion for what you think it is how you think that I don’t respect. It is not conducive to any investigation. It is closed to anything new or unknown. You don’t know that Hahneman was not Cooper, yet claim it.
To solve this case somebody will have to propose a suspect for evaluation, if you maintain your current logic every suspect will be rejected before they are legitimately eliminated by evidence. That is how the FBI works, they pursue until they can factually eliminate. The bias should be toward an open mind, not closed.
You are closed. A closed mind will never solve this.
Happy New Year.
I can only imagine how many people know exactly where Jimmy Hoffa is. so many got it right with him as well. I’ll bet the same insults go back and forth with that case. put the mafia in with it and you probably have people putting hits out on you 🙂
I think Skipp milked it for what it was worth and washed his hands of the whole thing. he moved on with his life and Bobby ran with the wind. the problem is. all the wind is long gone 🙂
Roberts been busy in the background trying to tell everyone what was wrong with the conference as if his opinion means anything. he’s busy busy busy with the up and coming movie 🙂 2019 is here? slowest production company in all of Hollywood.
There’s another example of bullshit……..Robert Blevins movie deal….. put Blevins and FLYJACK in the same suite and let them have it out. Bullshit vs. Bullshit equals……?
Lets not play the DNA game. you guys all want it. then when it’s negative all the sudden “it’s probably not his DNA”
have they “eliminated” all the suspects on paper? can you show where they dismissed suspect 456, or even Peterson?
To be honest. I don’t think they actually “eliminate” anyone unless they have proof of where they were that day. it wouldn’t be in there best interest to dismiss without evidence. other evidence could do it as well. that’s the hard part. we don’t have everything the FBI does.
again, I don’t see anything that makes him anymore of suspect than the others. that’s your job. do you want everyone to jump on the bus? I don’t follow this at all. this is a public forum so others are reading. you seem to be holding back because of me? I’m having trouble understanding your logic. why are you here then if you don’t want to show evidence? where ever you go people are going to question a theory.
You miss the point..
You claimed Hahneman was not Cooper but have no evidence. Not having evidence to eliminate doesn’t make him Cooper.
You don’t see anything that makes him more of a suspect….. because you don’t have all the information and have already rejected him.
The only person I wanted to convince was myself. I don’t really care what others think. You seem to think I have some obligation or need to prove something to everybody. I don’t. Others with suspects may but not me.
You haven’t questioned it, you have rejected it.
A forum or blog is a poor format to lay out all the evidence, it is very complex. Here is one point.. I have hundreds..
Hahneman flew into Seattle on a NorthWest flight years before NORJAK. That did not come from the FBI.
Fly, you are really sounding like Blevins now…you can’t say zero evidence when I told you why. his picture was shown to witnesses. he’s a violent person. he pulled a gun out at the beginning contrary to what you claimed. the MO was not the same. sure he didn’t want to make it look the same but it’s far from what Cooper did. similarities, sure. I can find similarities in lots of things.
Didn’t his description say he’s missing some back teeth?
You have to show different. that’s how it’s done. you don’t want to do that so it becomes an issue. the burden of proof is in your hands not mine. I keep telling you this. you are giving me serious flashbacks here…
He pulled a gun in another hijacking so he isn’t Cooper. really? FBI didn’t think so.
The MO was nearly identical except the gun, I haven’t disclosed all the details, you have no idea. Security was changed after NORJAK and he feared sky marshals. The gun does not eliminate. The FBI showed pics to witnesses for at least two years, some thought he resembled Cooper. Hahneman’s weight did fluctuate dramatically..
The early suspect description claimed he was missing some upper side teeth, perhaps he wore partials, hard to determine now. That may explain the Cooper tie particles. They were all used in dental prosthetic work. He was also an electrical engineer.
The burden of proof is not mine because I am not trying to convince you. That isn’t my goal. I just think you are not rational to reject without evidence to do so.
Hahneman can’t be compared to any other suspect, he is actually swarthy, curly/marcelled dark hair, no accent, turkey neck, matches the description, age 49, weight 165-175, no marks/scars, was dressed thin black tie, white shirt, dark suit and overcoat, brown shoes, dark sunglasses, actually hijacked for ransom a 727 and jumped out the back stairs, threatened to blow up the plane with a briefcase bomb, gave the pilot a hand written note and demanded its return, had pills for the crew, had extensive airplane knowledge, gave flying instructions, closed curtain, closed shades, left open parachute behind, smoker, military, electrical engineer, never home, loner, intelligent, had a grudge, was seen with a green bag, etc….
Do you actually think asking “Why not Hahneman?” is not a legitimate question..
You don’t have to accept Hahneman as Cooper but rejecting him without evidence is looney and comparing him to other suspects is crazy.
You don’t care what others think…again, why are you here? the purpose of these forums are to discuss topics, agree or disagree with statements and evidence. if you don’t care what others think then why would you make a post in the first place?
I don’t care what you think but I am not going to allow you to discredit me. Just like you did on your forum you always pull out the Blevins card… to insult and straw-man. You have some sort of Blevins Associative Disorder. You can’t back up with evidence the reason you reject Hahneman so you throw it out as a defence.. childish crap.
You are incapable of any rational discussion…
Better yet, if you don’t care what I think. then why have you been replying?
Hahneman flew into Seattle on a NorthWest flight years before NORJAK. That did not come from the FBI.
months before would be something..years prior, why? did he have family, business etc. you claiming it was a recon or a dry run of some sort?
Happy New Year everyone, and may the DB Cooper case live unsolved forever.
50 minutes and counting…..
No, it proves he was familiar with Seattle and that airline.
Kenny worked for NWO!!!!!!!!
Peterson lived in Seattle and worked for Boeing, and was a skydiver. it all fits!!!!!!!!!
You are an ignorant asshole.. that is only one point of hundreds.
Did KC or SP hijack and jump out the rear stairs of a 727? Hahneman actually did.
Shutter, while I am not convinced that Hanneman is Cooper, I do feel that any one who says who they think is Cooper basically gets ridiculed for it. You may not see it that but I understand how Fly Jack feels.
I can’t help it if my opinion hurts anyone. that’s there problem. re you telling me I can’t disagree with someone being Cooper?
“It has been solved” is a pretty arrogant statement coming from anyone.
What I am saying is are people getting ridiculed for having a theory on the case going to help the case get solved ? IMO To me it seems like it is going to discourage someone from coming forward with info or presenting a theory. The FBI may not know all the facts in the case, and not everything will make perfect sense. People’s stories do need to get scrutinized but often seems to attack the person presenting it.
Your opinion is worthless shit. It is ignorant and irrational.
I said moths ago on your forum that based on the info I have I believe Hahneman was Cooper short of forensics and I don’t expect anyone else to accept it.
I would expect people to not accept Hahneman as Cooper but to completely reject with no evidence is braindead.
Daniel meyers,
People want the case solved, some people just don’t want somebody else to solve it. Destroying others lifts their relevance and ego..
Suspects live and die based on their own merit, not by who is presenting the evidence. Attacking the messenger is an emotional defence mechanism that subverts knowledge advancement. NORJAK seems to attract fragile egos in need of affirmation.
When you are ridiculed/smeared for posting facts, that is a toxic environment best avoided.
He can connect all the dots and it still doesn’t make him Cooper. they have had 40 plus years and nothing…only one witness stated the marcelled hair. he has a scar on the back of his hand, no? more than a few “resembled” Cooper. this was very early into the case while fresh on the minds of the witnesses.
Yes, the burden of proof lies within the person testifying to any given subject. you have stated the case has been solved. damn right the burden is on you.
More ignorance from Shutter..
The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.
“More ignorance from Shutter..
The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.”
Congratulations Flyjack, you are officially second best to one Robert Blevins.
I’ve read where the FBI claims no scars and also read other reports of a scar. you call me ignorant but failed to notice I said “didn’t he have a scar on the back of his hand, no” that’s a question. the you blast me for it and end by saying “if he did they didn’t notice” ?
You have attacked me personally while I have done nothing of the sort. this is typical with suspect pushers. the hatred levels constantly go up on the scale. love the Blevins type header for your post. you have learned a lot from him. I have nothing further to say to you.
“some thought he resembled Cooper.”
I firmly believe, especially back in the early 70’s that if Flo, or Tina & Alice ever seen a photo of Cooper they would jump right up and say “that’s him” I think they could ID him today. the passengers not so much. Flo was in fear for years checking under her car for a bomb.
This is not a typical crime where a witness only see’s the perp for a few seconds or minutes. they had hours. it sank into there minds.
Cooper dressed very common for the period. suit and tie and overcoat, odd, strange. nope. very common. look at the files. case after case of “he looks like the sketch” every suspect looks like the sketch in one way or the other. Gossett was dead on, along with I think suspect #1. it doesn’t make them Cooper.
I don’t know why everyone seems focused on passengers descriptions. how could Tina miss a rust color suit. how do you part marcelled hair? Hahneman looks like Duane Weber if you ask me, especially from the side? he has odd eyebrow’s..half..
I take it files are somewhere of interviews with Hahneman in prison. did they ever talk with him?
DB Cooper’s identity is unknown. People think they can pigeon-hole a particular subject to the air pirate because of a physical trait or skill. So far, no one has presented the proof needed to close the case out. The end.
Actually a very good point…
What would be proof?
Hahneman didn’t talk, his pic was still shown to witnesses at least 2 years after NORJAK and 1.5 years after he was caught. That means the FBI could not eliminate him in at least 1.5 years of investigating him.
I haven’t seen any evidence that he was ever eliminated.
Just in case it gets missed from above…
“More ignorance from Shutter..
The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.”
Congratulations Flyjack, you are officially second best to one Robert Blevins.
I’ve read where the FBI claims no scars and also read other reports of a scar. you call me ignorant but failed to notice I said “didn’t he have a scar on the back of his hand, no” that’s a question. the you blast me for it and end by saying “if he did they didn’t notice” ?
You have attacked me personally while I have done nothing of the sort. this is typical with suspect pushers. the hatred levels constantly go up on the scale. love the Blevins type header for your post. you have learned a lot from him. I have nothing further to say to you.
Yikes,, the FBI mentioned the scar on the hand after he was ID’d and they were looking for him, they added that later. The hijacking witnesses never mentioned a scar,, get it. Is this too complex for you.
Hahneman witnesses never noticed the scar and neither did NORJAK witnesses for Cooper. So, per FBI, if Hahneman had a scar, it wasn’t noticeable and is irrelevant. Stop me if this is too difficult.
Meh, same old shit from you, taking innuendo lessons from Georger. Blevins obsessed.. try therapy.
I hope you just ignore my posts… or go back to your toxic forum where critical thinking goes to be ridiculed to death.
Yikes,, the FBI mentioned the scar on the hand after he was ID’d and they were looking for him, they added that later. The hijacking witnesses never mentioned a scar,, get it. Is this too complex for you.
lol, first you call me an uninformed fool and then admit you were wrong and twist to to fit…(applause) love how you admit guilt and continue to insult! people are saying you are full of shit here, so why are you in this toxic atmosphere?
If he had a visible scar odds are Tina would of noticed it. the passengers on Hahneman’s were terrified with the way he handled the hijacking and pointing a gun. did any of the witnesses sit next to him for hours? passengers wouldn’t notice a scar from a distance.
Tina didn’t have a gun pointed at here or a violent atmosphere like Hahneman shows in his hijacking. she sat next to him and had conversations with him, shared a smoke etc. you are giving false conclusions to make things fit. notice how I say it’s highly possible she would of noticed the scar vs saying as fact she would of noticed it?
It appears you are trying to discredit me vs conducting a mature conversation. Blevins 101 all over again…
I thought and hoped you wouldn’t respond anymore… I’ll try to keep it brief.
Hahneman hijacking witnesses didn’t notice a scar but NORJAK witness would have, therefore Hahneman isn’t Cooper. (Is that about right)
You stick to that bad logic… funny the FBI didn’t think of that.
You take things out of context much like Blevins. I’m giving an example. we have two different hijackings and two different environments. one is hostile while the other is not so much. we have established a scar is on his hand. we know for a fact that Tina was inches away from him for hours and concluded no visible scars or tattoo’s. while the others on a different hijacking reports no scars while he did in fact have one.
as I mentioned above that you seemed to have glossed over is the fact of me not stating things as fact. you are claiming I have! Blevins reads into things like this too!
Too funny,,, you are the King of lacking of context…
Your point is what regarding the scar?
BTW, There was a rumour posted by Bruce that the FBI held back that Cooper had a scar on the back of his left hand, I tried to verify but it kept tracking back to Jo Weber, so not credible.
If anyone has any real info on it let me know…
Stating the case is solved is claiming FACT beyond a reasonable doubt. I’ve yet to see anything that can make the claim a FACT!
Reasonable doubt is a term used in jurisdiction of common law countries. Evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt is the standard of evidence required to validate a criminal conviction in most adversarial legal systems.
Have you contacted the FBI to prove you have solved the case?
IMO, it is solved. Solved is subjective. I never stated beyond a reasonable doubt (legal standard) or as FACT. You have taken it out of context as usual. Funny, you claim to be entitled to your own opinion but nobody else is entitled to theirs..
I stated many times, my opinion is based on all the info I have short of forensics.. which I can’t control.
I still haven’t finished, there are some things still on the way and being worked on. Maybe there will be a smoking gun or something to exclude.. we’ll see. I’ll say though that the Hahneman story is fantastic even if he wasn’t Cooper.
opinions are not fact. nobody believes the case is solved except you. the sun coming up tomorrow is a fact. saying Hahneman is possibly Cooper is the proper statement vs he was Cooper or the case has been solved. I will still disagree. nobody ID’d him which is damaging. the case could of been left open as a person of interest. doesn’t mean they investigated only believing that he was Cooper. lots of suspects have had just as much time and effort and nothing came of them or the conclusions. that’s how I view things. you go one way or the highway and start insulting those who disagree.
My opinion is what it is. it’s extremely apparent you feel the need to constantly insult me for my opinion. throw everything ya got, it won’t change anything. Circumstantial evidence and coincidences are hard to believe is enough to solve a case. it’s been done before without coincidences though.
Solving the case would require putting the subject in the area on that date. finding physical evidence to back things up such as notes, confessions, witnesses identifying him, things used during the crime. I realize that’s not easy either, but framing, or accusing someone is! the whole Christiansen family is tossing there own family member under the bus!
I’m use to people presenting the evidence and going through it to validate anything said on any given subject. I don’t like to get involved with suspects. I don’t think I’m alone on this either. that doesn’t make someone decide they don’t wish to solve the case. a common pattern starts with people who have suspects. you have all the information so why do we need to look for it?
opinions are not fact.. no shit Sherlock..
I never said it was fact.. it is my opinion.
Wrong, I don’t call you an ass because of your opinion, it is because you are an ass.
I stated facts here and back on your forum and you ridicule them, they are single facts.
You constantly use innuendo and the Blevins smear, again an ass.
You claimed Hahneman is not Cooper with no evidence and virtually no knowledge about him. Ass move.
You contextually distort my statements to fit your bias, beyond a reasonable doubt is a legal standard not an opinion standard. Once more, an ass.
You are a hypocrite, my opinion is not valid but yours is. Rhymes with grass.
You constantly make incorrect assumptions and false accusations.. I really don’t expect you to accept Hahneman as Cooper. I don’t care what your opinion is.. I wouldn’t accept Hahneman as Cooper either if were you but I would have an open mind and be respectful.
There is no burden on me to prove anything to anybody, you guys could have done your own homework years ago but didn’t… I don’t see any reason to share info with you or your disrespectful forum environment and clearly you don’t respect me and the info I have..
You have created the ultimate self imposed catch 22.. you can’t critically evaluate a possible suspect when you have started by rejecting him based on assumptions.
“Maybe there will be a smoking gun”
This is my point. how can you claim the case is solved and still be looking for a smoking gun..you shouldn’t need one or already have it to make this statement…
It is my opinion, that is why. The evidence I have now is strong enough to convince me. A smoking gun means beyond circumstantial.
Contrary to Coopertown self appointed Judge Shutter opinions aren’t a legal standard.. though some are convicted on circumstantial evidence alone.
Man, you have gone full blown Blevins dude…
Such a hateful comment for someone’s view Flyjack. I’m not appointing judge to nothing. it’s my opinion whether you like it or not. it appears to be eating through you? this makes you look foolish.
Of course you are playing Judge, you are claiming an opinion must meet the legal burden of proof or it is invalid. This is complete BS on many levels.
“A smoking gun means beyond circumstantial.”
Lets take a look, shall we?
The term “smoking gun” is a reference to an object or fact that serves as conclusive evidence of a crime or similar act.
Spare the act of minimizing the term. so, you are wrong! a smoking gun is exactly what I stated it was.
It’s fine that you believe it’s solved but you shouldn’t post it unless it’s actually true!
So, what is your point? I can’t have an opinion because you need “a smoking gun”.. Sorry, I don’t need a “smoking gun” to have an opinion. You have an opinion without any evidence and very little knowledge.
Fly, this is getting old…you clearly stated the case was solved, correct? you need conclusive proof for that statement, correct? then you stated you are still looking for the smoking gun, correct? then state the story is fantastic even if he isn’t Cooper, correct?
That alone implies you have no validation to claim the case is solved…and yet we are still at it hours and possibly days later?
I stated months ago on your forum that IMO, it is solved short of forensics, why – because I have overwhelming circumstantial evidence that convinced me. It is my opinion, not a legal standard contrary to your assertion. I don’t need a smoking gun to have an opinion. It is enough evidence to have an opinion. That is enough for me.
You can believe what you want but FYI you really know very little about Hahneman so your opinion means nothing to me.
Mr. Blevins. seek help….
100 comments because I don’t believe Hahneman is Cooper and the case isn’t solved. talk about a waste of time….
I never once said you are not allowed to have an opinion. not once! I commented on two things. one, the fact of you claiming the case was solved, and number two would be not believing Hahneman was Cooper. nowhere in my comments do I lay claim to you not having an opinion.
To finalize. I don’t believe Hahneman is Cooper based on current evidence and my beliefs past that. I also strongly disagree that the case has been solved. especially when someone claims it’s a fantastic story even if he’s not Cooper!
Everyone on this board, including you are judges if you wish to get technical! if someone agree’s with me then so be it. if they disagree that’s fine too.
you can keep insulting me all nite. I have to leave now…
I wouldn’t believe Hahneman was Cooper either if I only had the info you have. You claimed he is NOT Cooper without any evidence and little knowledge.
I’ve heard that so many times from o many different people. I’m done buddy…gotta run.
You two need to knock it off. Blevins is the KING OF VENOM. Long live the DB COOPER MYSTERY. 2019 and beyond…..
shutter45..
You have engaged in association fallacy aka poor logic, each suspect needs to be assessed based on their own merits. You rejected Hahneman before you had any knowledge and you still have very little. You attacked and ridiculed me for my opinion from a position of ignorance to back up your emotional position. That is childish BS.. That is why I called you an ass, not because you don’t agree with my opinion.
The correct position for you to have is to not accept or reject. Get it. Rejection without evidence is irrational so is attacking the messenger.
Episode 7 of The Cooper Vortex is up. DB Cooper was an International Spy, with Vern Jones. Enjoy!
https://pod.link/1439712498
FLYJACK, listen up. You have not solved this case. You have presented a suspect of your own liking. That’s it! No more. No less. Your fervor will get you a reputation much like Blevins. There will be 20 new suspects in 2019, many with better presentations than yours. Get over it! The DB COOPER lineup is a mile long and an inch deep. Yours, maybe half an inch.
Thanks for the advice… I’ll throw out all my research right away.
I’ll say it again…the string of taunting documents that followed the so-called DB Cooper skyjacking hold multiple pieces of evidence that the person that composed them had inside crime scene knowledge. There’s also evidence that the DAn COopEr signature on the airline ticket was done by that same person, which is only one of the reasons why I believe that the FBI retained the taunting documents. This stands as pretty good evidence that the UNSUB survived the jump[*]. Based on my experience of studying the suspect that Nanette and I name, “screwy” evidence was also a primary characteristic of this same suspect, and the Tina/Tena bar money find is very screwy evidence indeed. Also, for him to have controlled every aspect of the execution of the crime and yet leave behind the clip-on tie, which turns out to have far too much evidence on it, is more screwy evidence, because it would seem to be pretty sloppy in an otherwise well planned and executed crime., and like the Ramsey ransom note…it’s too much evidence. [*Assuming that the same person that purchased the ticket also used the ticket.] BTW, examine and compare the letters D and p on the ticket, the D has an overtly closed loop over the stem, yet the letter p has those two sections overtly disconnected! I read that letter p as another one of our suspect’s many many JT signature hints. JT hints are pervasive features of the Ramsey ransom note, that is, once you look for and recognize them. The primary JT hints on the RN convey the message: “(IT) exhausting…daughter watching…Speaking daughter being…money killing family think killing Victory!”
Terry, I like many of your posts. But you need to understand something. Cooper did not sign his name to NWOA ticket. Ticketing agents ALWAYS did it themselves. And, Cooper would not leave that type of evidence behind. He was “too clean” to do something idiotic like that. I’m sure you can figure that out, Terry.
Gypsy 23, no sir, you are flat out wrong, the UNSUB signed the ticket himself, then handed in to the clerk.
T Battch…
I am at about 98% that Cooper did NOT write his name on the ticket but if you have/know of evidence that he did, that would be significant. It very closely matches Hahneman’s writing but I think Lynse wrote it.
Terry- I don’t know if you mentioned this before but on the Halloween Card sent by the Zodiac, on the skeleton is a pumpkin maybe it’s a clue to a name like Jack or John. I do know who your suspect is that’s why I mentioned it.
Yeah…
“jack” o lantern, that’s the noun hint that’s found on all of the Zodiac killer’s pictorial items…”jack.”
Klansnic is the best suspect to date not Hahneman,,,sorry to break to ya fly.
When did he hijack and jump out of the rear of a 727?
FLY:
ALL suspects jumped at 8:13 PM on 11/24/71. Every damn one of them. It was hard to get them all out of the fucking door before they flew over Portland. Best damn display of jumpers. Quite a fight at Tina’s Bar over the booty, but I hear they all got a piece of the action. Your suspect is in there too. He was number 141 to open his chute.
ps. If you question this fact, ask Georger. He knows this shit better than anyone.
ps. If you question this fact, ask Georger. He knows this shit better than anyone.
He piloted a B-17 Bomber that was shot down over Steyr Austria during WW2, Him and his crew all safely parachuted out the bombay at 27,000 feet and evaded enemy capture from the germans for 2 days on the ground. Hijacking a plane he help build in his own backyard would of been childs play for old Jim with all due respect Fly. Try him in the fire! If he’s not cooper he will be consumed but if he is cooper he will come out not even smelling like smoke….checks more boxes then anybody else.
1, Knowledge of 727 ✔️+
2. Shot down fighter PILOT just like Dan Cooper (Comic) ✔️
3. Stalag Luft 1 POW for 13 months/ battle hardened ✔️
4. Photo wearing what looks to be the very tie in evidence ✔️
5. Worked on the Breaking system and CRT displays for SST ✔️
6. Olive skin similar to George Clooney ✔️
7. Traveled extensively for Boeing and on personal time back and forth to Canada, Paris, Italy, South America, and Austria ✔️
8.Closely resembles sketches ✔️
9. Fluent in German and spent considerable time in france and italy being stationed in both before being captured in WW2. ✔️
10. Distinctive fold of skin like a turkey gobbler and unusual slant in the hairline. ✔️
11. Father worked at a quarry in the black diamond area 💥
12. Had “my one and only parachute ride” and a reference a reference to the year 1980 (1945 + 35=1980) in which he “wonders if he could still find his wallet in the cabin he hid in after parachuting from his burning B-17 at 26k ft, in his obituary ✔️
13. A Mountaineer ✔️
I can go on and on…..
Nicholas Broughton,,
Don’t see hijacking and jumping out the back of a 727 on that list..
J-Greene,
Hahneman isn’t my suspect, I don’t own it… sell it or represent it. He was the FBI’s suspect and wasn’t eliminated. Attacking me doesn’t affect Hahneman’s bona fides… This is the strawman nature of the Cooper vortex, riddled with logical fallacies and even inventing brand new ones.. the vortex consumes logic, distorts reason and subverts critical thinking. It renders some incapable of separating their ass from the pot. It causes some to drag others down to lift their own egos, the vortex is a disease with no cure. It consumes the weak and turns them into that which they despise. The vortex is a dance with madness. The only question, is it a waltz or a tango?
FLYJACK: More of a salsa, with lots of sauce. Don’t take these squirmishes too personal. You seem like a decent guy with some open mind. You haven’t done anything with visciousness. Only Blevins acts this way……….threatening people and sneaking up on their homes. Keep an open mind, guy. You are now a player in the NORJAK saga.
The problem for everyone is putting their suspect on the plane on the day in question.
14, Fits the age, height,, weight decription and was in excellent shape which would of been paramount
15. Test Pilot for Boeing ✔️
Can you put him on the plane on the day in question.
Yes I can, Danlel.
Do you want to tell us how you can put him on the plane..
Has anyone ID him as Cooper?
Hahneman – NORJAK witness statements..
_________ stated the photos of _______ represented an individual that to him ______ were the closest he has seen to his recollection of unsub.
_________ stated that based on the photographs he could not say that ______ was identical with unsub, however, he could not say that he was not identical.
Side view __________________ stated that based on the photograph he could not say that _____ was not identical with unsub.
______ believed the photograph of ______ bore a very strong resemblance to the hijacker. He particularly noted the hairline, stating that if the hair in the photograph was marcelled as was the hijacker’s, it would be an exceptionally good likeness.
He was unable to determine from the photograph the complexion of ______ but again emphasized the hijacker had a swarthy or Latin type complexion and it appeared to him ______ might have such a complexion.
Another interesting point… (circumstantial)
Tosaw… “Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, “Don’t worry, I’ve got some pills that will keep them awake”.
Hahneman hijacking..
Transmissions overheard on airport radio frequencies indicated the hijacker had asked for evening newspapers and five stimulant tablets.
AND..
During Hahneman’s hijacking he took dramamine, half pill given to First Officer (on demand)
Flyjack- you have a very good suspect, that one could argue that may have been on the plane. Most people can build a strong circumstantial for their suspect, but I think that you have gone a step further with your suspect.
It is still a strong circumstantial argument. The strongest by far. Reading the FBI docs on Hahneman is compelling, even the crew remarked that they thought it was DB Cooper.
They recovered Hahneman’s narrow tie on the hijacked plane… could test it now but it is probably long gone…
Johnnie Greene says:
January 2, 2019 at 2:23 pm
FLY:
ALL suspects jumped at 8:13 PM on 11/24/71. Every damn one of them. It was hard to get them all out of the fucking door before they flew over Portland. Best damn display of jumpers. Quite a fight at Tina’s Bar over the booty, but I hear they all got a piece of the action. Your suspect is in there too. He was number 141 to open his chute.
Ha, ha, ha, I agree!
Blackbeard buried his stolen treasures. Cooper did too.
Tom Kaye’s talk from Conference.
Thanks Flyjack. Tom gave a very good presentation. Does anybody have Tom’s CV? Does anyone know his list of academic degrees or qualifications for peer reviewing purposes?
Here are some of my opinions and questions:
1. The tie analysis casts a wide net and does not narrow a list of suspects. And it does not create a new list of suspects.
Why? Because it cannot be confirmed that the tie belonged to the hijacker. Most likely, based on early FBI 302’s, the tie was probably worn by Cooper when he first entered the aircraft and later placed it on seat 18E, as his calling card, before he exited the plane. There is no way to establish ownership of the tie prior to his boarding the flight. Cooper was so meticulous in not leaving evidence, the more likely scenario is that he purchased the tie used, or stole it, prior to boarding flt. 305.
2. How much “other” contact did the tie have after 11/24/71? The FBI most certainly studied the tie and shipped it to WA DC for examination in the preceding 40 years before Kaye conducted research. There could have been much material cross-contamination of the tie, including prior handling and testing.
3. The matter of titanium is certainly a valuable area of inquiry, but not at all conclusive that Cooper worked in a machine shop. What machinist wears his tie exposed while working in a machinist’s environment?
4. Even though the tie is the only real physical component that seemingly is part of Cooper, it is far too speculative to conclude that he must have worked in a particular field or industry.
I would give Mr. Kaye an “A” for effort and postulation of scientific examination, but a D for conclusive reasoning. Without establishing long-term control of the tie, a good investigator would say that this evidence points in no direction whatsoever. It does not establish a suspect, or even a plausible profile of the actual suspect, without knowing for certain that Cooper had long-term control and possession of the tie. It appears that he gave it up freely during the crime, which contradicts the modus operandi of all other aspects of this hijacker.
My impression: the tie is another decoy to send weary investigators intentionally down the wrong path.
100%. Excellent comments and analysis.
I think Tom Kaye actually mentioned in his presentation that the DNA taken off of the tie showed as many as 15 different profiles. So, simple logic would suggest that many different individuals wore that tie. It easily could have been purchased at a Goodwill store or taken from someone. The non-organic compounds/elements found on the tie prove nothing at all when coupled with evidence of so many other biological profiles also found. A complete dead end for any rational investigator. And a huge waste of personal resources too. But fun to listen to in the VORTEX, which eventually gets everyone, even Tom.
Handled the tie not wore it, probably mostly FBI people..
Sorry Flyjack. Gypsy’s logic is valid. 15 different biological DNA profiles on the tie. Yet, Tom Kaye hangs his hat on the metal samples as ultimate proof that DB Cooper worked in the aerospace industry as a machinist? Terrible logic. Those facts dont reconcile and would be tossed out of a courtroom proceeding. Trace metallic evidence can be used forensically IF connected to one individual. Here, not only are there 15 individuals, but we dont know who ANY of them are. This is evidentiary failure which doesn’t get to the sniff test. The tie is a red herring unless you can isolate to one individual. That style of black tie was common amongst military dress uniforms in the 60’s and 70’s. And, a better focus would be the tie-tac clip, rather than the tie. The DNA taken from the tie was found on the neck-clip, showing that many individuals actually WORE that tie. Tom’s own facts in his presentation misplace the direction of a rational conclusion.
No way, 15 different people wearing a $1.50 tie in 6 years is silly.. More likely it was contamination from handling in the 30 years after..
The FBI claimed 3 DNA profiles in 2001, it was Tom that later claimed 14-15 partial profiles based on his knowledge of files. We don’t really know were they all came from.
That’s the point, Flyjack. Tom had unfettered access to the FBI files, not you and I. It was Tom who made the statement in his presentation that there were 15 different profiles. The ONLY place where a DNA sample could be taken was on the tie-clip where it comes in contact with the neck. The claim back as early as 2004 was made by the FBI that they could take some epitheleal skin samples off of the clip. Later, the FBI stated that the samples taken
showed too much denigration of the DNA sample for any meaningful analysis. 35 years does that to DNA. Like you, I also heard that there were only three profiles from the tie. No idea where Tom came up with 15? Did your suspect smoke? Apparently they found traces of lighted match residue on the tie. Anyway, I’m not here to piss and moan at you. Just stating my own opinion. That’s all.
He isn’t my suspect, he should be everyone’s until he can be eliminated.. he was an FBI suspect because he committed a similar hijacking of a 727 six months after NORJAK. I can’t find any evidence that he was ever eliminated.
The FBI failed to recognize that the tie was manufactured in 1964-65, something easy to do from the labels. So, the tie particles had about 6 years and many environments to accumulate those particles.
Hahneman was a smoker, he demanded and received 2000 Benson & Hedges cigarettes which he opened during the hijacking. He also left a package of Viceroy’s in an overcoat he left on the plane. Viceroy’s were filtered and equivalent to Raleigh’s both made by B & W.. the difference was the marketing.
Vern Jones talk from Conference (Walter Reca)
Bruce Smith talk from Conference (Tena Bar)
Bruce delivers a story like no one else can. Out of the ballpark!
Bruce lakc credbulaty. He and Galen are no match for honest folks.
So you agree with the made up story of Galen Cook, peddled by his friend Bruce Smith? How can you trust a man that will infringe on people’s privacy and go to any lengths to scoop other people’s stories? Why do Smith’s sources always shut him off and slam the door on him with no further interviews? I like Smith’s huffing and puffing – hopefully he wont drop dread during one of his presentations?
Editor’s Note:
Many new posts since December 14, 2018 have not been approved until now because I was in NY without Internet service. Hence, as admin here, I could not approve new posters. Now I can, and regular service will be restored.
I think that you also have to look at odds of such a tie with so many highly specialized particles on it ending up in a thrift store, as being very very low. My take is that the tie holds a series of messages. I assert that the odds are also very low that one particular person is normally gonna get such a large list of highly specialize particles on his own tie. Otherwise, you are willfully assuming that all of the locations holding these microscopic particles were very very sloppy operations. I also highly doubt the one particular manufacturing facility is gonna uses each and every one of the highly specialized particles inclusively on one manufactured item, or even ten or twenty different items. Think all of the evidence through very carefully before leaping to conclusions, please.
brilliant! The tie was obviously a plant by …. then came the money plant … then came the plant to make Yogurt! Eat more beans.
Mark Metzler talk from DB Cooper Conference (Parachutes)
For Hahneman’s hijacking.. he descended the 727 rear stairs backwards and jumped back first, just as Mark described Cooper’s possible jump method..
Eric Ulis talk from DB Cooper Conference (Sheridan Peterson)
Pete Roscoe talk from DB Cooper Conference (Robert Rackstraw)
Eric Ulis Introduction DB Cooper Conference
DB Cooper Conference panel Q & A
Great stuff. Thanks, Flyjack.
For those interested in knowing the precise Tena Bar money find spot.
https://thecoopercase.com/pages/tena-bar-money-find-spot
Cheers!
Here is more confirmation. Palmer is pointing to that exact spot and it lines up to your spot. In line with the row of trees E to W at North side of field…
At 27 seconds Palmer points to the exact location on a map.
Welcome back to the crazy Vortex Bruce…
Here we go….
Remember all the abuse/lies and ridicule directed at me over questioning the TBAR money being random, bank bands/straps vs rubber bands.. Himmelsbach confirmed straps of 100 bills, straps held together with rubber bands.
Ralph Himmelsbach “There were 10,000 twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of 100 bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands.”
at 6:35 of video…
Take away..
Ransom money was bank strapped in 100’s, not randomized (packets).
Packets were held together with rubber bands.
If the money was randomized/rubber banded at bank it must have been the number of packets per bundle NOT individual packet counts. Larry Carr was 100% wrong or being deceptive.
Tina also claimed bank bands..
Inference..
The money was packets of strapped 100x$20 bills held in a single rubber banded bundle.
TBAR = 3 strapped packets of 100 bills = $6000 total. Rubber banded together.
That means TBAR money landed as a single bundle (3 packets) and did not have to land in a bag or container though still possible. The potential means by which the TBAR money arrived is not restricted to a container as virtually everyone has assumed.
The money details may have been something the FBI was holding back…
Small world! Just talked to Himm today also. He cant remember ever talking to you!
At least I remember talking to him. A very sweet guy. At times, especially when he’s not telling folks that I’m full of shit.
Did you talk about the money “bands” and “packets” that you’ve got wrong for 10 years… G’na
FLYJACK with capitol letters indicating superiority – this is quite simple. We found the video. Your mistake is your false interpretation of what Himmelsbach means by the word “strap”. Your problem is a language issue – you dont speak or understand English or you are intentionally confusing words to get what you want! H says: “There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands … ” Now substitute the word bundle for the word “strap” because by “strap” H means bundle. The result is: “There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in bundles of a hundred bills to a bundle and individual bundles held together with rubber bands.” H is saying the same thing Larry Carr said. So you can now stop your game with language, and stop telling us what H meant, what the facts were. The GOVERNMENT IS NOW OPEN so you services are no longer needed. Thank you for your consideration!
Wrong, Larry Carr claimed the “bundles” were random counts because he was told the “bundles” were randomized and rubber banded. Carr incorrectly deduced that the TBAR “packets” were made random counts and not in 100’s. Carr clearly stated this error. H clearly stated 100 bills per STRAP. That means Carr was wrong and the Bank had randomized the bundle size, number of packets/straps per rubber banded bundle (not the individual packet/straps of 100 bills).
If the Bank randomized and rubber banded the “bundles” and the packets/straps were in 100’s (per H) then they could not have been referring to the individual packet/straps but only could have been referring to the bundles, groups of packets/straps. This is simple logic. Larry Carr was wrong.
Tina claimed Bank Bands.. Ingram’s found rubber band frags.. The Bank told the FBI $2000 per packet and bank band strapped.
H’s statement backs it all up.
Packets/Straps of 100 bills rubber banded into random bundles of perhaps 3,4 or 5 packets/straps per bundle.
Packets, or straps are not the same as bundles. Carr was wrong, misunderstood, made assumptions or was deceptive.
What does it mean… It doesn’t point to any specific suspect or specific means of delivery. If the 3 TBAR packets were separate being found together indicates they must have been placed or arrived in a container (bag or overcoat) as almost everyone assumes. However, if they arrived rubber banded as a single bundle that explains their proximity and expands the means by which they could have arrived. Basically, the dominant narrative is false and H confirmed it..
If anyone wants to maintain it, they are certainly entitled to.
I like your thinking Fly. Concise, plausible, and interesting – and USEFUL!
Thanks for the welcome back.
Not worth replying to – we see FLYCRAP is now runjing your site for you – the wackos now all inthe same nest – obscurity suits you all. ENJOY!
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I am not sure about the universe.”
Well, welcome to the party, Regina – that is unless you’re just passing through and dumping stink bombs as you slide on by….
If you are sticking around, Regina, why don’t you tell us why you were talking to Himms and the nature of your conversation.
Along those lines, the BBC would like to talk with Jerry Thomas, but no one seems to have his current contact info. Can anyone help?
You bring up stupidity now – please note that your video you cite as proof according to Himmelsbach is empty! Did you intend to post an empty nonexistent video as proof? Why do you give us a blank space with no url or video in the blank space? So which stupidity are you talking about? Ours or yours? Please provide a link to the video you forgot to post!
Oops. Gotta love irony.. browser settings?? check.
Who is stupid now.
I have no problem with respectful disagreements, but you’ve got issues.
WRONGJACK! Carr didn’t assume or deduce or speculate anything. Carr actually found and talked to the bank guy who had personally prepared the money for delivery to Cooper. Carr is merely repeating what the bank guy said he did! And you? Who have you talked to? You use H’s words but have you talked to H about what he meant? You keep saying Tina said and meant this vs that. And to top this off you resort to attacking everyone you disagree with! Try blowing into a paper bag instead of dictating Cooper myth.
You still sticking to that narrative… How many times does it have to be pointed out to you..
Carr stated the TBAR money was not in 100’s but each was random, H clearly stated it was in straps of 100’s then rubber banded.
If they were already in 100’s why would the bank randomize and rubber band them when H said 100’s? they wouldn’t, it makes no sense. The Bank must have randomized and rubber banded the bundles, groups of packets/straps.
You stated they are saying the same thing, It is absolutely clear they are NOT.
I don’t have the patience for this level of intellectual dishonesty or ignorance.
I don’t have the patience for this level of intellectual dishonesty or ignorance.!
Oh good. See ya !
You have demonstrated emotional arguments not rational ones. Besides your bizarre threat perception and aversion to capital letters your position statement defines irony. Namely, If you change H’s words then they (Carr) are saying the same thing.. Funny, it still isn’t true. The conflict is clear, present and crucial to the issue.
This is the nature of the Vortex, it consumes the rational and elevates the emotional.. like confirmation bias or Marxism…
H had no involvement in the money given to Cooper. H made a lot of wrong statements. You haven’t shown any reason to believe H even knew what he was talking about using words like “straps” etc. It’s just your opinion. It’s obvious you have an ego problem. Your attacks against others is well known. It’s the reason you were kicked off the other site. That is not reassuring when it comes to you interpreting anything!
Same old lies, innuendo and Ad hominem subverting legitimate discussion, that is why I left Shutter’s toxic forum.
“Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, on this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives, that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
The Midwest freeze is dulling my sensitivity a bit and I apologize for all of the cruel, incendiary comments directed to FLYJACK. Actually, I love FLYJACK. I admit to being unusually envious of his work. I just hate nice guys. For the Big Chill, I’ve opened a can of pork and beans and this will allow a steady flow of warm current under the blankets tonight. What the hell. My students can’t stand me and even the dog feels better without my company. I’m just a crazy old codger, as Jo would say. Truth is, I’m caught up in the Cooper Vortex like all you other crazy bastards. But this is my only chance to live vicariously, with poison pen, and angry fingers. Sincerely,
Pocahontas, Poster67, Regina, Marla…..etc. etc…..
By george, I think you got it!
What? Peg too? Jerry likes to use women’s names to hide behind. FLYJACK knows this. Cold out there, Jerry? Try two cans of pork and beans. More fire power under the covers. You’ll be tootin in class, telling your community college kiddies to analyize btu
out of the can and into the atmosphere.
I’ve identified a CIA agent who worked with Hahneman, described him as very intelligent.
Is he as smart as regroeg? does he also eat pork and beans to stay warm under the blankets?
Strange coincidence,, William Hahneman, the brother of Frederick William (both have been referred to as William at times) is listed on an international flight manifest with one of the prominent members of the “Flying Tigers”.. he later flew in South Asia, both were listed as civilian passengers at the time.
FLY, did the Flying Tigers use 727s in SE Asia routes?
The Flying Tigers (WW2) were the precursor to Air America…
It may be just a coincidence that they were on the same flight.
But did FT use the 727?
No, FT AVG disbanded after WW2. The leader formed CAT which became Air America. Many original Flying Tigers worked as civilian contractors in South East Asia, some remained military. However, the FT person I am looking at was a chief mechanic and became a civilian after FT AVG but returned to South East Asia as a “civilian” pilot.
There was a Flying Tiger Airline formed by 10 former FT pilots which obtained 727’s but they were much later. That is separate.. the FT guy on the manifest wasn’t involved.
Thanks, FLY.
FLYJACK, good work. Did the Flying Tigers transport troops or military supplies to Vietnam in the 1960’s?
Tom Kaye asked about “Barium Chloride” use…
Pyrotechnics… It is used for the colour green in flares, tracers and fireworks..
But why on a cheap tie? and so saturated?
Hand held sparklers use a pyrotechnic paste, there were many different formulas but many of the tie particles match ingredients that I have found.
Some ingredients used in Sparklers.. (not complete)
Iron Cobalt Potassium Barium Cadmium Lead Zinc Calcium Nickel Copper
Lithium Boron Sodium Magnesium Aluminum Titanium Strontium Silver Indium Thallium
Used in Pyrotechnics
Yttrium (red) Silicon Phosphorus
Was Cooper celebrating the 4th of July with a hand held sparkler? Asian sparklers if Cooper was in Vietnam at the time?
That narrows it down to millions of people.
From Kaye’s site…
Silicon Spheres
Near-perfect spheres of silicon were found. Spherical particles such as these are normally formed by molten material falling through the air. These could be from the match residue but their exact source remains unidentified.
also Zirconium and Antimony…
Vintage green sparkler.. How popular were these things in the 60’s…
Eric Ulis brings lots of logic and common sense to the db cooper case. Much more than guys like Tom Kaye and Georger who try and impose with alleged degrees that they may or may not even have.
Ted, I am not happy with you disparaging Tom Kaye and Georger’s credentials. Both are earnest researchers, and have contributed significantly to the Norjak investigation. Yes, Georger often acts like an asshole, but by his own acknowledgement, he is an adorable asshole. I accept his self-criticism. I suggest you do as well.
An asshole is an asshole is an asshole. No disparagement, Bruce. It’s all about FACTS.
I am much more pleased and impressed with the fact that someone actually appreciates common sense and logic. Too often the argument settles around claims with no veracity. Additionally, there is often conflicting data. However, applying logic to the known facts can help cut through the fog and enables us to put some of these pieces together.
There will always be those who resist and enjoy the role of obstructionist. In the football world they’re called “Monday morning quarterbacks.” In the political world they’re called “talking heads.” In the Cooper world they’re called “snipers” by me. In other words, people who do little more than sit on the sidelines and take shots at the work of others who are attempting to understand and make progress.
You said it all, Eric. I always get a kick out of the Tina Bar experts. Half or more never stepped foot at TB, and wouldn’t know how to get there. Shall I name names?……nah, we all know who they are.
Will the D.B. Cooper Conference be an annual event? Is there one for 2019?
Yes. The 2019 DB Cooper Conference will be held November 30, at a site in Portland yet to be determined, but very possibly the same place that the 2018 conference was held. This is according to the most recent statements and postings by Eric Ulis, who was the 2018 conference organizer. Eric has also said that he would like to see the conference become an annual event. I think it will be, and I support Eric mightily in his endeavors.
That said,, the interest in DB Cooper, and in Cooper gatherings, has grown exponentially. At least three other researchers, including RMB and Bryan Woodruff of Ariel Tavern fame, have announced they are planning an event. In addition, Rob Bertrand of Escape Adventures NW in Vancouver, WA is continuing his DB Cooper Escape Room, and is looking to expand that venture.
Further, there are at least three docus on Cooper in the works, with at least one being a multi-hour project.
More information consistent with the TBAR one bundle idea.. with multiple packets/straps. Carr is the only contradiction and he got the size of the “packets” completely wrong. Also, Agent Pringle claimed there is info about the money only known to the hijacker.. the specific wrapping/packaging. So, Carr may have misunderstood or have been intentionally misleading.
https://archive.org/details/The_Times_News_Idaho_Newspaper_1980_02_15
VANCOUVER. Wash. (UPl) – Only one money bundle from the $200,000 hijack ransom given master criminal D.B. Cooper eight years ago has been found, the FBI said Thursday.
“Its’ all from one bundle.” said John Pringle, assistant special agent in charge of the Seattle FBI office.
“We found more bits and pieces, nothing more.” Cooper had been given “several” bundles of money, the agent said.
He declined to say how many, adding that “There is certain information known only to us and the hijacker.”
Cooper, whose real identity has never been learned, literally dropped out of sight on Thanksgiving Eve, 1971, when he became the first man oin history to hijack a jetliner for money. After collecting his loot — big bungles of money wrapped in a package six inches high, one foot across and about 1 1/2 feet long — he stuffed it in a bag tied to his waist and parachuted out the back door of the Boeing 727 into the rugged area between Seattle and Portland.
Forget about Blevins holding a Cooper symposium in 2019. I heard that Anna Stephen’s from Minnow Films in London is going to sue Blevins and Adventure Books for sending her on a wild goose chase over the Ken Christianson story. Turns out that Blevins is so desperate to peddle his fake story that Stephen’s caught him in multiple lies which cost Minnow Films lots of money. Blevins is well known in the Cooper world as one of THE biggest liars. All Ms. Stephen’s had to do was to contact Dave Brown, aka Shutter, to get the truth on Blevins. Anyway, Ms. Stephen’s is being apprised of Blevin’s yarns and the suit should be filed soon. Stay tuned.
Whoa. That’s news.
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– BAS
If this is true about Blevins then Beaux Carson is probably not far behind Minnow Films. he’s supposedly the one who is part of the “production” company making the film about Kenny, or should I say the “possibility” one that appears to have closed years ago!!
I’ve been getting emails about Roberts behavior for about a month now. people are tired of him “name dropping” when he really doesn’t know them.
Robert has been on a mission to discredit me, Bruce, my forum, this site etc. it appears to all be backfiring on him. what a shock lol. people are getting tired of his drama and speaking out. the people I’ve had contact with are extremely tired of his rants.
You would think since he always claims people talk about him that he would go away. that doesn’t seem to be the case. it doesn’t matter if he’s in the past or not. he’s working overtime in the background (nite and day) pounding away at the keys. it appears he has mental issues that need attention. a normal person wouldn’t go to these extremes.
Get some help Robert. seriously.
The stairs on the 727 are an important clue. How did he know how to use those? When the plane landed and took off, how were the stairs lowered and raised? Was it from the cockpit by the pilots or someone on the ground crew?
The 727 airstairs are an important clue.
In fact, Cooper did not know how to deploy the airstairs. Tina Mucklow even commented that it struck her that this was the only aspect of the 727 that Cooper seemed to lack knowledge about. That is to say, he apparently didn’t realize that they were deployed by way of pulling a lever located beyond the bulkhead door near the top of the airstairs.
However, Cooper was aware of the fact that the airstairs could be deployed during flight (no squat switch) and that the airplane could fly safely with them deployed. The pilots and Northwest’s Minneapolis Flight Operations Center weren’t even aware of this…they had to contact Boeing to determine whether this was feasible.
Good observation and question.
To what aspect goes to this clue, Eric? What does it mean? That DBC did not work for Boeing and did not know the 727 as should a Boeing employee who would vigorously understand all components of the aircraft he would be hijacking?
Gypsy23, it’s important inasmuch as it demonstrates that Cooper had detailed–not easily attainable–knowledge about the 727. This certainly implies a Boeing connection. That said, it is not required that he knows everything without flaw about the 727. In the case of Sheridan Peterson he hadn’t worked for Boeing for 7 years at the time of the skyjacking. Certainly he cannot be expected to retain everything that he came across during his tenure.
[That is to say, he apparently didn’t realize that they were deployed by way of pulling a lever located beyond the bulkhead door near the top of the airstairs.]
Im not interested in your explanations – Cooper explained it himself! He said he thought it could be done from the cockpit so the model in HIS mind was wrong.
[However, Cooper was aware of the fact that the airstairs could be deployed during flight (no squat switch) and that the airplane could fly safely with them deployed. The pilots and Northwest’s Minneapolis Flight Operations Center weren’t even aware of this…they had to contact Boeing to determine whether this was feasible]
What passage do you base that on? Bring us your EVIDENCE not your opinions.
These statements are generally supported by testimony in FBI agent Ralph Himmelbach’s book, NORJAK. Other treatises also provide corroboration, such as Geoffrey Gray’s SKYJACK. Have you read these? I highly recommend them.
As long as the airplane was de-pressurized, why could it not fly with the stairs down? It flew with the landing gear down. The 727 had been flying since the early 60’s. Was there no way for him to learn about it or maybe overhear a remark? What if he knew very little about the 727, but knew about planes in general, like maybe a mechanic?
Greta-lou, my statements are based upon the evidence per the FBI files. Cooper either was familiar with the 727 (15 degree flaps, airstairs can be deployed in-flight, location of oxygen bottles, 727 refueling time, etc.) or he happened to guess correctly.
RichG, the primary issues related to the airstairs center around two facts that weren’t at all obvious. First, that the airstairs weren’t locked in some manner once airborne. Second, that the airstairs wouldn’t act as a big flap that at-speed would lift the back of the jet upward thereby forcing the nose of the jet down ultimately leading to a crash.
“G”erta-lou?
but Cooper didn’t explain it… FBI 302’s are not facts. They are witness recall interviews summarized by an FBI agent. They are barley one step better than hearsay. FBI 302’s are notorious for being inaccurate or misleading and that is why many contradictions exist in the NORJAK case and we endlessly argue their meaning. For example, Cooper did NOT initially ask for rear airstairs down per cockpit transcripts, though everyone has run with that as it is stated in the 302’s.. Granted the 302’s are all we have…
We can assume he did have aviation experience/knowledge and he did not have specific 727 knowledge regarding the rear airstair operation.
One point I have been tossing around,, in one 302 per Tina he asked for “gear down” in another he did not.
Did he actually ask for “gear down”? or was it misinterpreted and passed to pilots.. if it were not for the gear down the plane could have made it to Mexico..
If he did ask for “gear down” why, only to keep airspeed down, possible but unlikely? perhaps he thought (incorrectly) the rear airstair may have been locked/inactive with gear up. Perhaps he misunderstood the “squat switch” operation.
He may have assumed that the same landing gear hydraulic pressure (neutralized up) also pressurized the aft airstairs hydraulics,, though research suggests that is not the case for the 727.
Cooper may have had experience with an earlier plane,,, for example the C-135 had an emergency floor hatch for the crew to parachute out…
Cooper did not have to work for Boeing or have inside info to come up with this caper, it may have just been a combination of his aviation experience/knowledge and the logical evolution of hijackings for ransom prior to NORJAK. A few weeks before NORJAK Paul Cini tried a ransom parachute hijacking but was knocked out by crew. It wasn’t a 727 but he had no aviation experience. The evolution to use of a 727 was a logical progression.
BTW, Paul CIni was a Canadian but was in the US military and had relatives in NJ..
I thought Cini was in the Canadian military. How do you know he was in the US military? Were the relatives in NJ named Cini? How were they connected to him? Cousins?
RichG,
Cini was 100% in the US Military..
I tried to find his relatives in NJ but couldn’t. Cini is still alive in Alberta and his phone is listed in case a real reporter wanted to call him.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/482524451/
“This, he convinced the crew, was a bomb that would explode if the two wires held gingerly much of the time by Mary Dohey touched.”
“When he received his immigration papers in 1964, he moved in with relatives in New Jersey and went to work cleaning rollers in a printing shop. But his draft notice soon came and he scooted back to Calgary. There, he got a truck-driving job and fell in with a gang of car thieves. They paid him to deliver stolen cars and indulge his passion for driving the sleek, expensive models his father had always helped him buy. But after one such delivery there was an argument over Cini’s fee. So instead of handing over the car, he changed the serial numbers and traded it in on a new model. He botched the job, however, and when he heard the police were on his track he ran back to the U.S. In a pub in Spokane he got drinking with an army sergeant who persuaded him he could join up without going to Vietnam. Cini took the oath (“I was under the influence”) and found himself in a boot camp an infantryman who hated guns. “The noise bothered me I was scared to death.” He escaped the guns at his next base by qualifying for the communications corps. But he froze with fear halfway up his first telephone pole. By now, however, he was carrying vodka in his water canteen and he managed to forget his terror of heights long enough to volunteer for the Green Berets because he wanted to stay with some pals who were joining the crack parachute regiment. To his secret relief, a hearing impairment disqualified him. Convinced now that he didn’t belong in the army, Cini tried to talk his way out, arguing that he hadn’t been sober when he signed up. When that didn’t work, he stole a car and drove to the Canadian border.”
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-BAS, 2. 16. 19
Good job on removing that liar, Bruce. Anna Stephen’s knows he’s the venom magnet on the Cooper case and she is being apprised accordingly.
This revelation about Blevins and Adventure Books will probably cause Minnow Films to go a different direction, now that they all know about Blevins. Good job guarding the gate, Bruce.
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Dont worry Blevins. You’re mostly out of everyone’s minds.
Dont worry Blevins. You’re mostly out of everyone’s minds.
Ted, do you and Blevins have bad blood? Blevins must have a history with the group. Was there one specific incident or many? I read through some posts on his Quora site and did not see anything real bad. He had a good summary of why Walter Reca and Sheridan Peterson definitely can’t be D.B. Cooper. Does he upset people by criticizing their suspect?
RichG, you must be new to Cooper World. The issue with RMB is not Christiansen. Rather, it is with RMB’s behavior. It can be, at times unacceptable, such as frequent threats of law suits, public issuance of character assassinations and back-stabbing, speaking untruths, threats of physical assault, unwanted and dangerous in-person visits to one’s home in the night, unfounded public accusations, and the like. In short, I find RMB dangerous and untrustworthy. I think many Cooper researchers have come to the same conclusion regarding RMB.
To prove this, I’ll forward you all of the emails and statements that RMB is surely to send my way.
No bad blood. just a lingering blood blister.
Mr. Blevins is mentally challenged. no sane person would do what he does for as long as he’s been doing this..
Mr. Blevins loves to criticize but can’t handle it coming his way. for years he begged us to look at his evidence, so we did and we found problem after problem. that’s when it all began. you become entangled in endless comments back and forth with him.
I started a forum back in 2014 and Robert learned he wouldn’t be allowed on the forum. so, he joined under a false name to stir up sh#t. I banned him permanently and he has been stalking me ever since. he would follow me around on You Tube as well. I had to ban him from my channels.
The Ariel store closed that had a yearly Cooper event and the owners son took over but basically has to reconstruct the old building, new licenses etc. Robert decided to get involved but only to use it as a platform to get back at me and my forum. he would fill up the Facebook Ariel page meant for news about rebuilding to post comment after comment about me and members of my forum. the owner ended up tossing him out of the town. ban number two.
Then Mr. Blevins opens his own forum to yet again use it as a tool against all of us, including Bruce. he was shutdown multiple times for his behavior on his own forum 🙂
He sends email after email until one has to block him from that avenue as well. he stays up till the sun comes up pounding away on the keyboard.
His latest hate movement is tattle tailing to any media that wants to cover DB Cooper. some have contacted me about his behavior. he also likes to drop names as if he knows the person so he feels important or “in the groove”
Eric Ulis decided to hold a DB Cooper conference last November and once Mr. Blevins found out he wasn’t invited sent a threatening letter to the country club causing us to relocate to another place. ever since the conference he’s been in the background pounding away telling everyone how it should of been done. he lied for years telling everyone he “filled up the theater” everytime he had an event. he forgot about that and posted on his forum years later that only about 50 people would show up 🙂
He will preach about how much he hates liars while half of what he says is deceptive. he is a very hateful, angry, manipulative, spiteful, old man. he does all of this then turns around asking us to join up with him lmao.
His biggest rant was people talking about him. that ship left long ago and yet he’s still here hating away…
I on scratched the surface of Mr. Blevins. I would need another page to continue with more.
This should give you a pretty good idea…
Well said, Shutter.
You are supposed to be banned from this site hate monger! grow up and move on…
You don’t belong here Robert! try being a man and accept what you have done all by yourself. you need help, mental help.
Robert, you have been banned from this site! that once again is YOUR fault! nobody else’s. that doesn’t give anyone a reason not to talk about them. your actions tell it all.
NO, I don’t support anything attached to you. don’t care if it holds 20,000 seats. no, this is the first I’ve heard of your little venture so stop implying you know or think I knew about it. I don’t follow garbage days, sorry.
I DON’T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU……DO….YOU…UNDER…STAND?
You are nothing but drama and trouble. go peddle your stuff else where. perhaps somewhere you are not BANNED….
RichG: see what we mean? Now that the cat’s out of the bag for the umpteenth time, Mr. Blevins will be around for the next six months, or until Bruce terminates him again. You shouldn’t have asked.
Robert, listen and listen good! nobody emailed me about this event. I haven’t been involved for some time now. only recently have I returned. what the hell would giving prizes away have to do with my decision?
It’s sounds like something that isn’t even really your gig. as time goes by I’m sure you will annoy the hell out of them and mess things up anyway.
As I mentioned before. I don’t want anything to do with your name attached. do you understand? you have been doing nothing but bad mouthing all of us to everyone you can find. media, Facebook, You Tube etc. then you want to join up, seriously? you toss around law suits, threaten people. screw you pal. got it!!!!
I just spoke with Eric Ulis on the phone and he said he didn’t receive anything. who you emailed is only known to you. Eric said he is still moving forward with his yearly conference. it’s not about numbers or who has the biggest gig. it’s always a competition with you. I will back Eric all day long.
You haven’t earned any respect since 2014. that’s what it’s about with me, not how many people I can get in one shot! I have a heavy work load at this present time and not much room for Cooper. it’s not my life as it is with you.
In closing….I do not wish to be involved in anything you are…are we clear? it has zip to do with prizes, where in the hell is your mind dude?
Sorry, Bruce, guys….I’m sure he gets the message. you can delete all this crap…
Sigh.
Robert, you are blocked on every avenue with me. I don’t care what you think. I’ve told you what I think and if you don’t like it, tough sh#t.
I just spoke with him and he says the opposite….not 10 minutes ago..that’s all I can tell you…
Robert, I don’t care what it’s about…I’m not for sale dude.
I think you need to respect the ban that has been placed on you for some time now. that’s what I truly think!
You are here giving me a hard time, who do you think you are fooling. it’s just like the movie deal. you asked and asked and asked. just go away!
You are full of negativity dude. it’s how you survive. you have been on a mission for years trying to discredit a lot of us. my guess is you probably told them you can get everyone on board. just like you did with the movie deal.
Deleted comments on WordPress…never seen them?. won’t take long before they all return. just another stunt you always pull. nothing new…
It has everything to do with the ban. your not suppose to be here. do you not fully understand that?
I emailed Eric after our phone conversation. he says the following…
“He wanted me to shut down CooperCon and be a part of his thing. I told him my plans are to proceed with CooperCon.”
That doesn’t sound much like an invite. you tried to get him to shutdown vs coexist.
Robert, just like the movie deal. I’m speaking for myself. I don’t speak for anyone else other than me myself and I. all 3 of us want nothing to do with you.
If Jim wants Cooper people. have him contact me!
Robert, the podcast years ago was going to be the biggest thing. the movie was going to be the biggest thing. the Ariel two day thingy was going to be the biggest thing etc. etc. etc. all duds.
You have Jim contact me.
If Jim knows who I am, then he knows how to contact me….
Take care.
your credibility is getting in the way Robert. that’s the whole problem. I don’t want anything to do with you………………..
I had nothing to do with them going against you on your film and you blamed it all on me..screw you again, pal!!!!!!!!
members of my forum Robert. you blamed it all on me…I didn’t even know what Andrade said to you until you mentioned his name…
again, I’ve grown tired of this. have Jim contact me if he wishes. I will not work with you…
Take care
This conversation is finished. Any one wishing to correspond with RMB will have to do it on another forum, or use private emails.
Goodnight, gentlemen. I had a tooth pulled today, and I have no more patience for this kind of conversation. RMB is banned from the Mountain News due to bad behavior. I had to scrub 13 unwanted posts from RMB this evening, and I’m done. End of story.
Just 13 scrubbings, Bruce? Old Blev is slowing down. He came to your home uninvited, but when you went to HIS home he blew a fuse. What a hypocrite. Did you ever confirm that the old lady who answered his door in Auburn, WA was his wife Gayla?
The entire Robert Blevins drama gets down to this: Blevins needs attention even though his case is a 100% failure. FACTS: Lyle Christianson dreamed-up the plot after his brother Ken stated on his death bed, “I have a secret that I can’t tell you.” That’s it. No confession whatsoever. And the secret was no secret at all. Ken Christianson, a homosexual man, … How does that make him DB Cooper? Because Ken was a flight attendant for Northwest Airlines. Lyle created the entire story to sell to a Hollywood producer. It did not sell. Lyle retracted his pursuit when aggressively pushed by an experienced radio talk show host. Robert Blevins has fictionalized everything else about Ken Christianson.
He has produced NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. A remarkable run of over 10 years by one of the most hated and deceitful persons ever involved in the case. Robert is a charlatan of great proportions and a marketer of complete fabrication and dishonesty. The End.
Editor’s Note: part of this message was removed due to unsubstantiated allegations.
Enough of the personal drama and BS… back to NORJAK.
The FBI have posted a new file #34, a big one 460 pages,, WOOHOO
https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/d.b.-cooper-part-34-of-34/view
Can anybody suggest books or shows that give a good synopsis of the case without forcing a specific suspect on you like Case Closed did 2 weeks ago?
The Cooper Vortex Podcast
RichG, Yes, there are several good books on DB Cooper that you might find useful.
1. “DB Cooper and the FBI – A Case Study of America’s Only Unsolved Skyjacking,” by yours truly, at Amazon. $25. 2015
2. SKYJACK, by Geoffrey Gray. 2011.
3. NORJAK, The Investigation of DB Cooper, by Ralph Himmelsbach and Tom Worcester. 1986
4. DB Cooper – Dead or Alive?, by Richard Tosaw. 1985
Yes, Darren’s Cooper Vortex Podcast is excellent. Also, the Mountain News-WA has lots of Cooper material – check the category section – and it’s free. There, you’ll find links to plenty of DB Cooper YouTube clips. I have four or five posted – and they’re free.
Two of those books are on Kindle. I’ll order those. Two are out of print I think. I’ll take a look at the Mountain News and listen to the Cooper Vortex podcast. That should be enough to keep me busy for a few days. Thank you.
Bruce Smith’s book is very good because it examines the most current matters about the case. Mnasst’s post above really nails it about Blevins. He has not produced one shred of direct evidence to prove Ken Christianson was DB Cooper. And his so-called circumstantial evidence is not believable at all. I would say KC is the least viable suspect of the major ones propounded.
Contradictions everywhere and made-up circumstances. His case is so weak
that it should have been passed over. Goes to show that one psychotic liar can influence many minds.
Bruce Smith’s book is very good because it examines the most current matters about the case. Mnasst’s post above really nails it about Blevins. He has not produced one shred of direct evidence to prove Ken Christianson was DB Cooper. And his so-called circumstantial evidence is not believable at all. I would say KC is the least viable suspect of the major ones propounded.
Contradictions everywhere and made-up circumstances. His case is so weak
that it should have been passed over. Goes to show that one psychotic liar can influence many minds.
Sorry. Blevins. I’m not HEARING you. And that’s a GOOD thing.
We all wish Bruce Smith well as he prepares for his big documentary shoot with Minnow Films. Bruce has no suspect he supports, so his lengthy interview will be a breath of fresh air and objectivity. Hopefully, Bruce will discuss which suspects are NOT DB Cooper, based on the absurdity of the suspects in question and their highly disregarded promoters. We all know who THAT is. Good luck, Bruce and make a load of money on this documentary and sell a lot of books. We are pushing for you. Anna and her gang at Minnow Films read the Mountain News as I’ve learned.
For my money, I would say that Jo Weber is the DB Cooper Promoter Par Excellence. Plus, her style of needling, persistence, and full-frontal attacks is the Most Effective Approach in Cooper World for making contact with NORJAK principals. How she got a hold of Billy Waugh before Snowmman and I did, continues to amaze me to this day. And to “camp out on the phone” with Jane Dormuth (Tina’s sister), according to her husband Lee, the night before I showed up “unexpectedly” is also a testament to Jo’s indomitable spirit, and perhaps her crass social manners as well.
That’s hardly the person we were thinking of, Bruce. Around here, we actually LIKE Jo Weber.
Bruce, be sure to tell Anna Stephens that
Robert Blevins has been lying and creating falsehoods about the Cooper case and Ken Christianson since about 2009. Then, show her the evidence you’ve collected. Good luck with your Minnow Films shoot.
I’ve been reading about suspects and have a couple of questions. 1. Is it true that Sheridan Petersen is one of only three people to have his DNA tested by the FBI? 2. Where can I find more information on Melvin Wilson? He disappeared and he had contacts through his counterfeiting that maybe could have helped him launder the money.
Importantly, not only is Sheridan one of only three suspects whose DNA was compared to Cooper’s, also:
1) He is the only suspect who the FBI sought a DNA sample from (Duane and LD comparisons are considered the by-product of a lot of media attention and public pressure).
2) He is the only suspect that the FBI has not publicly cleared by virtue of the DNA comparison.
3) I have requested info regarding Sheridan’s DNA comparison via the FBI Field office in Seattle and was rejected–again even though they had already established a precedent regarding public disclosure with Duane and LD.
4) I attempted to obtain results through the Freedom of Information Act and was rejected.
5) I reached out to Sheridan and asked him to request his own DNA comparison results from the FBI and stated if it shows no match I would publish that info and reflect that in my report” DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson”–of course, crickets from Sheridan regarding this too.
Make of it what you will. It doesn’t add up if the man is innocent.
Do people know for sure that the FBI did not check anyone else’s DNA? How would the public know if someone had their DNA tested if that person did not say something? The person may not have even known their DNA was tested. When was the DNA test on Sheridan Peterson? Was it recent and still being processed, or was it a while ago?
Yes, RichG, there are only three people that are publicly known to have their DNA tested. Sheridan, Duane, and Uncle LD. The Feds said they were going to test Barb Dayton, as well, but never confirmed their efforts with the Formans. Regardless, they lost all of the evidence that Ron and Pat gave them, too!
Galen says that he and the Gossett family have supplied the FBI with DNA samples of Wolfie, but again, no confirming response from the Bureau.
Lisa Lepsey has given her father, Richard’s, DNA to the feds, as well as Vicki Wilson on Mel. Again, no confirming responses.
As for Kenny C, who knows? Or rather, who cares. And the 1,000 other suspects and confessees? Gawd Knows….
As for Mel Wilson, Vicki has done a TV show on her father, plus has written about him and her search for the truth. Posts at the DZ and DBC Forum. Good luck with the search functions at those places.
Give me a call, or email if you’d like a more comprehensive view of the subject. BTW: Georger is an excellent researcher on the nitty-gritty of DNA testing. He’s old school and not quite current on touch DNA and the like, but he has a strong fundamental understanding of the science. You can send him a message at the DBC Forum.
Georger is a serial liar. Period. Stop enabling him.
Why dont you morons give it a rest? You are just jealous of Georger.
Uncle Brucie………………..smile for the camera this weekend. And pick up a nice sweet check $$$$$$.
Heard that Bruce Smith completed his 7- hour shoot today in Cooper Country. BRAVO! Bruce is a superb spokesman for the case and has a story-telling advantage over almost everyone.
Yttrium used in production of polyester.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3523104
8 hours with Minnow, Babes. 10 am – 6 pm.
Thanks for the kudos, Johnnie.
Is Minnow Films doing a documentary? When will it be available?
Yes, they are crafting a full-length documentary on DB Cooper. As for details, they have asked me to keep those tidbits confidential to protect their proprietary interests. But it will be significant and in-depth. Broadcast date is over six-months out. Links will be posted when available.
Last night I discovered that the Quest TV channel on local digital channel 11.4 was running a DB Cooper documentary which was promoting the latest darling suspect Duane Weber. I only caught the last 20 minutes of this same program and in that last 20 minutes they managed to trip my bullshit detector several times!
First and foremost; FBI Norjak FOIA historical files clearly show evidence of a near LeCenter Washington drop zone and from three (3ea) separate sources! So forget the Lewis River bullshit and the wilderness jump bullshit, etc.
So, I went to YouTube to look for this same “program” and first discovered yet another bullshit documentary “program” titled ‘The Skyjacker That Got Away,’ which has footage’s of Earl Cossey, Larry “Karr” and Tom Kaye giving their half-baked opinions and faulty conclusions. Yet no mentions (no surprise) about the FBI files that contain the taunting documents that show proof that whomever composed them had possession of inside crime scene knowledge!
Why was Earl Cossey mysteriously bludgeoned to death sometime after this so-called documentary was filmed? I currently have no idea why, and I’ll add that my takeaway is that he wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, but maybe something clued him in after he gave that same interview footage?
There is so much intrigue about the peripheral aspects of the Cooper case. Tina Mucklow’s past. Earl Cossey’s death. Ken Christianson’s alleged pedophilia. So, come on Bruce. Did you address these issues? Give us a little hint. Now that you are about to be a famous movie star dude. Do your loyal fans get free tickets to the red carpet rollout?
There is so much intrigue about the peripheral aspects of the Cooper case. Tina Mucklow’s past. Earl Cossey’s death. Ken Christianson’s alleged pedophilia. So, come on Bruce. Did you address these issues? Give us a little hint. Now that you are about to be a famous movie star dude. Do your loyal fans get free tickets to the red carpet rollout?
Not to be overly snarky, guys, have you read my book? Or gleaned the pages of the Mountain News. I have written extensively on:
1. Earl Cossey’s death and plausible reasons why someone would want to kill him, and why the murder has still not been solved. There are two Chapters!. We’re coming up on the 6thy anniversary next month, BTW.
2. How the Nat Geo docu got crafted – 0ne chapter in the book. It’s the aforementioned docu titled: “The Skyjacker Who Got Away,” and was filmed in 2008-2009. Tom Kaye has clearly stated how the Propeller Theory got going, how it got into the docu, and he has offered a compelling rejection of it.
By The Way: I am not familiar with the documentary evidence that sites DBC’s LZ in LaConner. Please let us know where we can review these pieces. Remember, LaConner is the next town west of Amboy, so it is not too far from the LZ-A of Ariel/Amboy.
Also, Kenny’s candidacy to be DBC has been gone over enough. As I write in my book, I agree with Larry Carr’s assessment that Kenny’s primary – and sole – qualification to be DB Cooper is that he was a male.
Regarding Tina, my dear fans, when Minnow was here I professed my LOVE of Tina on camera, and BEGGED her to get in touch. Whether that tidbit gets into the finished docu, or is edited out, that is not my decision – but at least I put it out there.
Lastly, I am not familiar with any docu that dwells on Duane Weber as DB Cooper. Any links to that broadcast?
Yes, I too, see a Red Carpet in my future. Details will be forthcoming on when it rolls and how all those of you who might want to savor those moments with me can do so.
Kenny Addendum.
Minnow and I talked very little about Kenny C. What we did talk about at length was Lyle! Who he is, and why he does what he does. I think the true character of Lyle Christiansen is becoming more fully understood by increasing numbers of people. As Barry O said, “the arc of justice may be long, but it does hold steady.” Or words to that effect.
Thanks Bruce, great info.
Yeah, it was great info, Bruce. When Hollywood decides to put the independent newsman who resides at the base of Mt. Rainier into the national spotlight, you will probably be forgetting about the rest of us peons over here. Can’t wait to see your appearance in the doc. Glad you set the record straight about Lyle Christianson. One of the biggest hoaxes in the DB Cooper mystery.
ps. remember that guy who lived at Spirit Lake near Mt. Saint Helens? He wouldn’t leave when the the mountain blew in 1980. You might end up being like him. Bruce Smith, publisher of the Mountain News, refuses to leave his place as everyone else evacuates the lava flow from Mt. Rainier…….lol
Good for you in helping to expose Lyle Christianson, Bruce. Phoniest DB Cooper story on the planet, backed by another phoney, Mr. Blevins.
Have to agree with Johnnie. Lyle Christianson’s motive for lying was money$. Mr. Porteous motive for lying was fame. Robert Blevin’s motive for lying is, HE’S A LIAR! Blevins is a clueless old man who goes around threatening people with lawsuits. Pathetic person. We all know that. Georger knows.
Your email to Minnow, along with Lyle’s should make delightful bookends to this saga.
The term the British like to use: RUBBISH! That one word sums up the Lyle Christianson fable. As Georger has pointed out in numerous postings in various DB Cooper sites, Lyle Christianson confessed on a live radio show in Spokane, Washington that he made up the entire story because he thought it would sell in Hollywood. THAT was Lyle telling the truth. The rest is all RUBBISH! Show that to Minnow Films.
For Bruce (and others too): Quotes:
Regarding Tina, my dear fans, when Minnow was here I professed my LOVE of Tina on camera, and BEGGED her to get in touch. Whether that tidbit gets into the finished docu, or is edited out, that is not my decision – but at least I put it out there.
Lastly, I am not familiar with any docu that dwells on Duane Weber as DB Cooper. Any links to that broadcast? ” Unquote.
Last item, I’ll try to locate the title of this latest Cooper documentary and post it here.
Perhaps the skyjacker put the fear of God into Tina? The vicious murder of Cossey probably has had a chilling effect on her and other.
Yes Bruce, I’ll read your book and very soon. BTW, it’s an appropriate hoot that Blevin’s garbage is being edited out here….he really does beg for it.
There is no doubt that the tie would have been “fingerprinted” and Tom Kaye didn’t report any fingerprint powder on the tie. Logic, some of those particles must have been from fingerprinting.
Since, “Lycopodium Clavatum” was used as a primary ingredient in fingerprint powder, it is more likely it is from FBI fingerprinting rather than pill coatings.
1970..
“Lycopodium-Aluminum 80-20 is a highly effective fingerprint powder compounded from powdered aluminum and lycopodium. The lycopodium, which is a vegetable product, acts as a vehicle and lubricant for the aluminum powder to prevent smearing and loss of detail. This combination may be used with excellent results on any reasonably smooth surface, including glass, metal, wood, plastic, leather, paper and painted surfaces. Very good results have been obtained on leather wallets which, because of their grainy texture, are usually not amenable to dusting with conventional powders.”
Good report FLY!
But you have no documents saying the tie was finger printed, or any other confirmation either? But in spite of that you are telling the public it was finger printed! Keep up the good work preacher.
Thanks, Fly. Interesting information. Good insight, too, on tie residues.
Bruce, you really should ask Tina out for a cocktail. …..you never know. It would sure put a twist into the overall plot.
Just Marla.
Sigh. I’ve pondered doing that, or sending her a Valentine’s Day card, or even a birthday card, but she might use it as physical evidence to get a restraining order. The look on her face when I was there in 2011 was stark and fierce. The girl has serious issues, and I don’t want to be a lightning rod for whatever is fueling the rage.
Besides, if I actually got a date with Tina, a lot of guys here would be VERY jealous. On the other hand, the many in Cooper World who think I’ve already gone TOO far with Tina might feel they need to defend Tina, etc….
You could offer her free therapy. Buy her a 4th of July card. Dress up as a Catholic Priest and show up at her door. Throw a few 20’s at her.
Bruce, if you could get a one on one meeting with Tina and was allowed to ask her anything, can you share with us the list of questions you’d have for her?
If she has something against you personally, it’s probably been planted there by those that seek to suppress the whole truth about the highly sophisticated Cooper caper. In other words, her polarity against you personally may be altogether merit-less? Wouldn’t it be interesting if she actually lurks this site on a regular basis!(?)
I just posted something, but it seems to have disappeared? WTF?
Oh, now I see it. WTF?
Tina and Me:
I ‘d want to hear the whole story. But here are some highlights:
1. How did the money bag get onboard?
2. What was your interaction with the FBI agent who came onboard? How did he leave?
3. What was the ruckus about in Row 12?
4. What was it like being a cloistered nun?
5. Why 30 years of silence?
6. Why break the silence by talking with the Eugene Weekly in 2012?
7. Why appear on the History Channel documentary?
8. What are you so angry about?
9. Do you feel you had special abilities to handle DB Cooper?
10. How do you feel about Bill Rataczak’s profound gratitude and affection towards you?
Wow, that’s a lot of questions Bruce, and some that are very pointed. Thank you for sharing all of that. My next two tasks are to get your book and to see if I can find the Eugene weekly interview.
At the risk of being rude, Terry, it’s aboutfuckingtime…
…smile.
Well Bruce, you’re right about that, but I’ve had a lot on my plate these days. My dear mother passed away last Sept and I’m the personal rep of her estate. Plus, I already had a rather large to-do list when I first arrived here. I did search the net for all things Tina and still haven’t found some of the things that you pointed out. It seems to me that I recall you or someone here stating that the UNSUB traumatized her with some outrageous remarks. That might well very explain her behavior vs anything that you did? Except that perhaps she knows the the Cooper caper is one big heavy handed conspiracy, vs a guy like you trying to get at the truth? I suspect that the History Channel is yet another tool of the deep state.
You have cooked your goose I think. You are a Billy goat that keeps butting its head against a tractor wanting to breed with it! Get a life, Mr. Smith. You have said quite enough here to keep the door closed and you think it’s exciting! Every word you write goes to people concerned.
Like who, Char? Who are the “concerned people” that you speak of? Anyone I know? Happy to discuss my list of questions that I have for Ms. Mucklow at anytime. Email is best. Brucesmith AT rainierconnect dot com.
Char is Blevins…
I think you are right, Shutter. But only Bruce knows for sure.
Marla too + Char = Georger
all that lying can get you pretty tiresome.
The truth? the truth is nobody wants to be associated with you. you were “silenced” due to your behavior. you can’t even respect the rules.
anything you are involved in will suffer due to, once again, your behavior. nobody wants to be around you Robert. no, I’m not talking about people who still have the wool over there eye’s either. the one’s who really know the lying, manipulative, spiteful, arrogant, disrespectful, hypocrite.
Try being “truthful” with the word “ban”
“the lying, manipulative, spiteful, arrogant, disrespectful, hypocrite”,, describes Georger perfectly.
you don’t have to worry about him anymore. why you keep whining is beyond me…you seem obsessed with him…
You give a platform to continue to lie.. he lies to discredit others and he lies about the Cooper case.
Everything you claim about Blevins you enable with Georger. Hypocrite. You have even picked up some his slimeball tactics.
Could be Georger…..
Interesting! Georger can sneak in, undetected, but Blevins cannot.
One must remember that Georger is the self-described “adorable asshole,” whereas RMB is unrelentingly dangerous and toxic.
The two might actually get along. They both have agendas. One to advance a suspect by lying about everyone else’s suspect. The other to call out and discredit anyone and everyone who has worked on the case.
Fly, you continue to agitate. much like Blevins. you seem to fall short of moving on. the forum, Georger or anything else is none of your concern anymore, but like Blevins you just keep going and going.
Georger has plenty of faults. just like the rest of us. you guys seem to use most of your time complaining about others.
Georger has been researching this case probably the longest. and has an impressive following most don’t have a clue of the people he talks too. he has connected me to many involved in the case over the years that don’t go online. agents for one.
You don’t like him, that’s fine. I have a different outlook. if you don’t like it, I suggest you stop visiting the forum you bash much like Blevins all the time?
Have a wonderful evening…..
You really lack self awareness. Georger continues lying about me on your forum and you think I am the one who is obsessed. Leaving your toxic forum was the best thing I ever did for my Cooper research, I should have done it long ago.
He discredits others to cling to relevance and feed his fragile ego and lack of competence. His 15 minutes of glory were pulling his connections together but now he is irrelevant. He talks a big game but has nothing… no original ideas, nothing but talk.
His tactic is to outright lie or use innuendo to discredit anything he doesn’t agree with, a form of lying, he is quite good at it to the uninitiated. He is toxic to your forum but since you have adopted the same smear tactics to discredit others you must enjoy hosting a toxic environment. Entirely your choice.
Georger tries to discredit me with lies on your forum and here anonymously, if he didn’t do that I’d never mention him. He is scum and I have zero respect for him not just for his behaviour toward me but also others. As far as the Cooper case he has become completely irrelevant. Has he ever had an original thought, he seems to use others or trash others.
But you, I had respect for until you started adopting the Georgerisms.. I thought you were a nice guy, not especially bright but nice enough, however you keep using the Blevins innuendo smear and have demonstrated to be a spiteful, ignorant and immature little child who has forfeited any and all respect due..
You have one play, smear with the Blevins card, now who is obsessed. Your entire world is consumed by Blevins, he is in your head. You have lost it.
I don’t think you should get rid of Georger, not at all, you should bring back Meyer and the three of you can continue to stroke each others fragile egos within that toxic elixir of arrogance and ignorance inside that echo chamber of disrespect and animus. Draw in the Cooper newbies and impress them with your bullshit, get your egos stroked until they get their own voice.
Editor’s Note; his post has been modified due to offensive language.
Fly, I know you have received the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune from many sources in Cooper World, but please can you tone down your ire at Georger? Your rants are tough reading, and they hurt my tummy. Thanks.
Just because I reference you as Blevins doesn’t make one obsessed. again, you have a problem with Georger and it’s obsessive. if it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be having this conversation….
Sounds just like Georger… same tone, innuendo and inaccurate statements.
Is it true, Bruce, that you are going to start a DB Cooper “hook-up” site? Lol!! You might as well, cause there’s a lot of boys and girls out there looking for old Coop and cupid (Coopid). If you do, your new site would make national, maybe international, news. Minnow would have to come back for part2.
Is it true, Bruce, that you are going to start a DB Cooper “hook-up” site? Lol!! You might as well, cause there’s a lot of boys and girls out there looking for old Coop and cupid (Coopid). If you do, your new site would make national, maybe international, news. Minnow would have to come back for part2.
Well, I was hoping that Shutter would start a Dating Thread at the Forum, but if it comes down to it, I’ll Do It Here! As I tell my therapist at every session: “I’m leaving no stone unturned.”
” try and gain access to people and places where you are not wanted.”
You wouldn’t know anything about that, would you?
why the threats now. this is the first time you left the house in a year?
Didn’t Bruce go to your house (respectable time) to talk about your late night intrusion on his property instead of calling the police?
Just how much yarn do you own 🙂
I went to RMB’s place of residence/work in the afternoon to confirm that he had in fact written a letter to the country club originality slated to host the Cooper Con in 2018. I wanted to verify that Robert had indeed threatened to sue those associated with the conference if and when something was said about Kenny Christiansen that RMB did not approve.
I went to his place because he was not answering his phone, nor was he responding to emails. Yes, I was wearing my Mountain News- WA credentials, the very ones that I wear and present at every press briefing I have ever been.
Yes, I left when requested by the woman who answered the door. Yes, I believe that RMB called the cops on me because as I was driving away from his place an Auburn PD cruiser was heading towards his place. I didn’t stop to verify if they cop was headed to RMB’s, or if I was just witnessing a coincidence.
The woman who answered the door bell and asked me to leave did not identify herself. She was a stout woman, about 60 or so, with unkempt hair. Georger later showed me a pix of a woman on the Facebook page of a Ms. Procliv, the name of the woman that RMB says is “his old lady.” The pix I saw and the woman I met, are the same person.
Sorry, I thought it was after the late nite checkup the boys did. still had a valid reason for knocking on someone’s door. pretty common thing in AMERICA. especially, when someone doesn’t respond to several attempts from different avenues. I can see him in traffic court arguing with the judge saying the light was blue… 🙂
Funny how someone takes something valid and will twist it around to look bad.
Was there a beeper planted by the FBI?
They don’t admit there was one used but the FBI files document a report of a very faint beeper signal picked up about 40 hours later just upstream of TBAR.
In the Hahneman docs, the FBI did plant beepers in the chutes, he found them (5.5 months after NORJAK). They state that they have a 24 hour minimum operation and a 15 mile range. << consistent with the NORJAK FBI “beeper signal” report.
Goerger recently claimed that…
"Tina said he put the bundle offered her back into the bag. Tina never reported him storing money anywhere other than in the containers he was trying out.“
This is typical Georger, first part false and second part true. Now he is backtracking.
IMO, the TBAR money was very likely the same money that Cooper handed to Tina. It is the only documented money that was separated from the group.
There are several good theories.
One is Tosaw’s basic theory, a good one, an old one, the Tina money went into his coat pocket then ended up at TBAR. The problem is Tosaw has Cooper landing in the Columbia. Possible but??
Since Tosaw had some inside knowledge, was he incorporating the "beeper signal” into his theory? Did the FBI plant beepers or not? Larry Carr lied/misled when he said the tech wasn’t available. It was.
Did Cooper wear the overcoat when he jumped? or, Did the overcoat exit the the plane independently? (Hahneman was dressed identically to Cooper but left his overcoat on the plane)
If there were beepers did Cooper find one and put it in his coat pocket with the Tina money?
Did the overcoat fall from the plane into the Columbia with the Tina money? and a beeper?
Is there another way that the Tina money got to TBAR?
Georger after 10 years has finally reached out to his sources to clear this Tosaw theory up for everybody… but he has to be sensitive to his sources and “edit” the information, there is too much at stake. Lots of danger for those involved. Careful guys, don’t want to see anybody get hurt, it is just a 50 year old case.
Finally, the Cooper case will be solved by Georger,, Congratulations, I knew you could accomplish something if you just tried.
Georger,, I thought everyone knew this already.. I don’t recall which FBI Cooper file it is in but the page ID numbers at the bottom are 1809-1810, you should be able to find it.
“FLYJACK says:
March 11, 2019 at 10:11 am
Was there a beeper planted by the FBI?
They don’t admit there was one used but the FBI files document a report of a very faint beeper signal picked up about 40 hours later just upstream of TBAR.
Can anyone produce the FOIA document (302) FLYJACK is talking about?
40 hours later… later than what ? When?”
about 40 hours after it was likely activated… give or take, heard at 3:30 PM 11/26. The Hahneman beeper was good for at least 24 hours, so very faint signal after about 40 is consistent.
Was there a beeper planted by the FBI?
They don’t admit there was one used but the FBI files document a report of a very faint beeper signal picked up about 40 hours later just upstream of TBAR.
PRODUCE THE DOCUMENT!
It is in the FBI docs.. page 1809-1810, I am looking right at the pdf of the two pages. I thought everyone had this..
What the hell have you guys been doing..
This is the first I’m hearing about a beeper or tracking device in NORJAK. Carr said none was used. And Maj Dawson indicated that chaff was not to be inserted into the chutes he was preparing form Cooper. Cossey never talked about trackers, nor did Hayden. Who would put one in? When? Where?
How does one put a tracking device into a chute without disturbing the folds/pins, etc.?
377?
The FBI doc doesn’t say a beeper was used in NORJAK, it reports a very faint beeper signal detected just upstream of TBAR about 40 hours after one would have been activated if it was used. That is why I asked if one was used?
I’ll email it to you.
I posted the event on my forum a while back. I believe I took a screenshot and posted it but I can’t find it..
I recall a document about a emergency signal being picked up. they were trying to determine whether he had help on the ground. the signal wasn’t close to T-Bar that I read..this was not a beacon used for the chutes. I believe they even identify the transmitter…this document also said it was a faint signal..
Thanks, Fly, for the beeper info. I am looking at two docs: One is the FBI report of an emergency beeper signal heard by an Oregon Air National Guard F-101 pilot on approach into PDX on the Friday after the skyjacking. The signal was heard twice, once eat of Vancouver, and then westward of Vancouver.
The second doc is from the Frederick Hahneman investigation, where a beeper was inserted into the parachute pack. It describes a device that can emit signals for up to 24-hours to a range of 15 miles.
This is an excellent find. A couple of posts back you asked us researchers “What the hell have y’all been doing to miss this stuff,” or words to that effect. Yup, I missed these docs. Glad you got ’em. The reality is that after reading hundreds of FBI docs, many of which are redacted and/or repetitive, my eyeballs started screaming and the migraines started a-comin’, so I had to give it a rest until more vigorous researchers such as yourself could guide us old guys forward. Thank You.
this was discussed over a year ago. funny how people forget.
Sigh. So true.
The signal tone was coming from Evergreen field north of Government island miles away from Tbar. it was on frequency 243.0 which is a emergency broadcast freq. it moved to Reynolds Aluminum plant west of Vancouver before fading out. this was on 12/26/71 at 3:30
The beepers they put in the chutes go off when the chute is deployed. hearing anything days later would rule out a chute tracking device..it would of went off when Cooper deployed..
Evergreen Field is the place where Rackstraw’s cohorts flew out of, according to Tom Colbert….
It’s also the neighborhood where I almost died when Jo Weber was driving me to breakfast….
I don’t understand, Shut. You mean the beepers turn off when the chute is deployed?
If not mistaken they start (go off) once the cord is pulled.
You would think if they put it in the pouch or just inside then you could pull it out and smash it or toss it away. I’ll have to read up on what McCoy did. he didn’t remove them.
7:25PM URGENT 11/26/71 TLA
TO: – SEATTLE (C164 – 81)
FROt-1: PORTLA ND ( 164-41)
UNlSUB; HIJACKING OF NORTHWEST ORIENT AIRLINES FLIGHT THREE
ZERO FiVE, ELEVEN TWENTTYFOUR SEVENTYONE:” CAA -HIJACKING; EXTORTION
00: SEATTLE.
________________ OREGON AIR NATIONAL GUARD,
ADVISED THAT AT APPROXIMATELY THREE THIRTY P.M. TODAY AS HE WAS
MAKING APPROACH TO PORTLAND INTERNATIONAL AiRPORT IN F-ONE ZERO
ONE FIGHTER: HEARD A FAINT RADIO TONE SIGNAL BEING BROADCAST
ON TWO FOUR THREE POINT ZERO MC. A FREQUENCY RESERVED FOR EMERGENCY AIRCRAFT RADIO TRANSMISSIONS. SIGNAL FIRST HEARD NEAR EVERGREEN AIRPORT, JUST EAST OF VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, THEN HEARD SECOND TIME NEAR REYNOLDS ALUMINUM PLANT WEST OF VANCOUVER. SIGNAL HEARD FOR APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES, DURING WHICH TIME __________ ATTEMPTED TO OBTAIN RADIO FIX ON AUTOMATIC DIRECTION FINDER EQUIPMENT WITHOUT SUCCESS AS SIGNAL FADED OUT. SIGNAL WAS OF
END OF PAGE ONE
TYPE TRANSMITTED BY EMERGENCY LOCATED BEACONS CARRIED BY GENERAL AVIATION AND MILITARY AIRCRAFT. NO SUCH BEACONS KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN IN OPERATION, EITHER ACCIDENTALLY OR FOR TEST PURPOSES, AT TIME. FOR INFORMATION.
END
HANDWRITTEN NOTE “MANNING HANDLING”
243.0 was a frequency also used by FBI for tracking. These things usually activate by g-force/impact. They need to be triangulated to pinpoint location. They are notoriously unreliable.
Evergreen field was East of Vancouver.
But, the Reynolds Aluminum plant was near Troutdale East of Government Island next to the Columbia far from Evergreen Airport and very far East of Vancouver. The pilot stated West of Vancouver, ALCOA was the big Aluminum plant West of Vancouver on the Columbia about 4 miles upstream of TBAR.
Did the pilot mix up the name of the Aluminum plant.. Alcoa was west of Vancouver but Reynolds was very far East. Since he described Evergreen as East, he was more likely referring to Alcoa as West.. but called it Reynolds by mistake.
Hahneman found the beepers planted in the chutes. The tracking plane was called back so he was never tracked. He did comment that the beeper would help his friends on the ground find him..
If the FBI did put beepers in Cooper’s chutes they may be withholding that.
Shutter makes a good point that the signal would have been picked up earlier, but it isn’t conclusive maybe it was a weakened signal in the Columbia River in his coat pocket or dummy chute??
Good post, Fly. In the McCoy hijacking, the FBI planted a beeper in one of the chutes. But McCoy threw it out of the 727 and used his own chute. The FBI chased the wrong chute.
I believe they put them in all the chutes. they had the crew verify he was still on the plane while the signal were generating.
Good post, Fly. In the McCoy hijacking, the FBI planted a beeper in one of the chutes. But McCoy threw it out of the 727 and used his own chute. The FBI chased the wrong chute.
when you read the same 302 further down it was a signal from the ground they were wondering about more than anything. if any beepers were in any of the chutes they would of went off when he left. hearing a signal two days later doesn’t make sense. the signal was moving and it wouldn’t be something a bad guy would want. KPDX has military planes and one could of went off.
They would of known when he jumped. instead you read the possible landing zone and the crew failed to signal with the planes lights because they weren’t sure he left. unlike the crew with McCoy checked on him several times. once they felt the pressure bump the contacted them with a location location and went into the cabin to verify. 305 opted not to go past or look past the first class curtain…
Signal wasn’t moving, it needed to be triangulated but was lost. Hearing it from two locations doesn’t mean it was moving.
messed up the post a little..going to the kitchen in between posting…
Cooper left the plane…we know that, so if any tracking device was on him it would of been tripped by the cord, pressure/altitude. they wouldn’t have to search such a large area if they had tracked him. the only way would be taking them out and leaving them on the plane. if you believe the signal was Cooper, then the tracking device went with him…can’t be any other way…it’s the same conclusion I came to over a year ago….the signal probably was nothing…
I brought it up in relation to Tosaw’s theory that Cooper landed in the Columbia with the overcoat and the Tina money in his pocket. That possible “beeper” signal is right there where he would have landed. Tosaw had inside info, why was he convinced Cooper landed in the Columbia.
and why didn’t the FBI disclose whether Cooper put the parachute on over the overcoat or not? they must know
and I don’t necessarily agree with this.. I am looking at several theories
Tosaw’s brother Mike worked the San Francisco FO in the 80’s when Tosaw was investigating. Tosaw had insider’s info. The Tosaw brothers played college football for Nebraska in the 50’s.
Robert, take your own advice about going places where one is not wanted?
I vote no on doing anything with you Robert. you are poison. you as a bargaining chip is amusing to say the least. last I heard he was willing to turn it over to two trustful people in the community. you read the email, you were on it.
Robert, you have done enough damage..take it like a man and move on dude, seriously.
I don’t give a crap what you think it is….
Nothing to think about..get that through the hollow walls…should I make a press release, what will it take for you to understand no?
To recap…you have done an enormous amount of damage both on and offline. nobody wants anything to do with you. how or why is this so hard for you to swallow?
Attention RMB. I am done with you posting here. You are not wanted here. If you continue to post at the Mountain News-WA, I will seek to have WordPress ban you permanently from this site. Failing that, I will file a complaint against you with the FBI and the IC3 Division for unwanted Internet intrusion and harassment. I will also seek legal counsel for a civil suit against you for defamation and trespass.
That’s it RMB. I’m calling the cops.
This is very good discussion about a radio signal device being installed in the chute for tracking. But I take issue with Shutter about the device being activated by pulling the cord. I dont think so. McCoy threw out the chute the FBI gave him, thinking it had a signal device. He was right. McCoy outfoxed them and strapped on the sport chute that he carried on the 727. There is a discussion about this in Calame’s and Rhodes book. Question: why didn’t Cooper surmise the radio device, but McCoy did? Couldn’t be the same person both times.
ps. McCoy seemed to know more about parachutes than Cooper. Bringing your own chute to the hijacking gives much better odds of escape than relying on the FBI to bring one to you.
The chutes were not beeping until they chutes left the plane.
Maybe ground impact activates them. Acceleration ends.
Hahneman also found trackers May 1972.
Bruce, if you need any help don’t hesitate to contact me. I think everyone on this board will back you up if needed. his actions have gone on far to long and need to be stopped. perhaps the first step would be the local police.
Good on ya, Shutter. Lots of witnesses at both sites.
The source was not moving.. there was no fix. The pilot reported his location.
“SIGNAL FIRST HEARD NEAR EVERGREEN AIRPORT, JUST EAST OF VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, THEN HEARD SECOND TIME NEAR REYNOLDS ALUMINUM PLANT WEST OF VANCOUVER. SIGNAL HEARD FOR APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES, DURING WHICH TIME __________ ATTEMPTED TO OBTAIN RADIO FIX ON AUTOMATIC DIRECTION FINDER EQUIPMENT WITHOUT SUCCESS AS SIGNAL FADED OUT”
According to 377. he said they are on when they put them in the container. the aluminum shields the signal pretty much until it pops out of the plane with as full signal.
377 is speculating, he has no knowledge of the specific equipment the FBI may have used. They do have different activation settings and the FBI has used 243.0 frequency for tracking.
He also doesn’t believe any were on 305, which I concur…
377 said “almost certainly not” based on incorrect facts, he incorrectly used 121.5 frequency as a premise.
Never blindly accept a conclusion/opinion from anyone without knowing the underlying argument.
I brought up in the context of Tosaw’s theory.. that he landed in the Columbia.
I remain neutral on it.. but somebody knows for sure.
he turned it off and jumped, then two days later turned it back on for no reason?
That is a valid point, we know they were used on other hijackings but we don’t have enough information. How do they function in a water landing? Could it have been moved and discarded? I found some that have different activation settings, but I can’t find the exact model that the FBI would use.
Terry, regarding Tina and any violence/unsavory acts done to her by DB Cooper:
There are rumors. Here is what I know.
1. Ralph Himmelsbach has called DBC a rotten, sleazy criminal for decades, but has never spelled out exactly why he uses that characterization.
2. Galen told me that when he last spoke with Florence Schaffner in 2009, she felt that DBC may have sexually assaulted Tina during the supposed 45 minutes they were alone in the aft cabin. That would be after the passengers left and before take-off, minus any time spent re-fueling and dealing with those affairs. I have no corroboration on the 45-minutes alone, nor the assault.
3. Jo Weber says that Duane went and found Tina in Gresham/Portland in the 1979 time-frame when Jo and Duane were traveling to Seattle from Colorado. Jo says that Duane mentally and psychologically assaulted Tina at that time. Again, no corroboration.
4. I have speculated at the DZ about ten years ago that one of the reasons that Tina was so skilled at handling DB Cooper was that she may have been physically or sexually assaulted earlier in her life and knew full-well how to deal with predators who were threatening her and people she cared about. I have ceased speaking about that angle since I have absolutely no corroborating evidence to support the theory, and numerous readers have objected to my speculations.
5. Over the past ten years I have frequently speculated that something sinister may have happened to Tina after the skyjacking that caused her great troubles, such as landing her in the long-term health care facility in Gresham, Oregon by 1979. What those scenarios were are hard to fathom, but could involve MKULTRA-like processes to obtain her silence or compliance, or guilt or anxieties arising from having to support the official narrative of the skyjacking put out by NWO and the FBI, ie: white-washing the actual events on 305 during the skyjacking, such as the arrival of an FBI agent, the ruckus in Row 12, moving the passengers forward at a much later time then publicly stated, etc. It is issues such as these that lead me to say that if we knew more about Tina, then we would know more about NORJAK.
That is way out there on the limb, I have been pursuing a much simpler explanation that pulls everything together but it isn’t something that can be discussed here.
Part of what you said Bruce was: What those scenarios were are hard to fathom, but could involve MKULTRA-like processes to obtain her silence or compliance, or guilt or anxieties arising from having to support the official narrative of the skyjacking put out by NWO and the FBI, ie: white-washing the actual events on 305 during the skyjacking, such as the arrival of an FBI agent, the ruckus in Row 12, moving the passengers forward at a much later time then publicly stated, etc. It is issues such as these that lead me to say that if we knew more about Tina, then we would know more about NORJAK.
That does make sense to me and does fit in with other crimes that Nanette and I agree are linked. Nanette was way ahead of me on the MKULTRA business, so I had to play catch up ball on that too. Let me clarify that I don’t disagree with her on any of her case linkages, it’s just that she’s much more studied on the several other crimes that she has linked. If it wasn’t for her, I’d know nothing about the DB Cooper case.
Given what we do know what happened to Tina, I’d say that those are not reckless speculations that you cite. The UNSUB very like did a lot to mess with Tina’s mind, which would explain Himmelsbach’s remarks about the UNSUB. It fits.
Did you ever wonder if Cooper used some of the parachute cord to tie the loafers to his feet?
Thanks again Bruce.
Parachute cord to tie loafers to his feet? Hmmm. Possible, but I’m a Duct Tape kind of guy, and I would hope that DBC wold use something with more stick-um than the stiff, unwieldy rope from a parachute.
Given what you know and learned about Robert Blevins during the past 10 years, Bruce, I can’t imagine you teaming up with him to do anything. You would be at high risk. Besides, he said he was leaving WA this year to move to AZ. Or was that another lie too?
Bruce, if you like regular duct tape, try gaffers tape, as was used on the Ramsey girl, which I read as yet another one of the author of the ransom note’s (JT) many messages. However, gaffers is much more expensive.
Did the Cooper UNSUB have duct tape with him? Perhaps something to keep the sunglasses, which would act as googles, on his head? Perhaps he had an aviators hood too? Everybody makes a big deal about him getting cold, but he probably wasn’t “in the blast” very long.
BTW, the sheer number of JT inclusions on the Ramsey ransom note is by far the most redundant hint on the damn thing. Hence my “author/(JT)” usage. It’s inclusion(s) reminds me of gang graffiti.
RMB says a lot of things about a lot of things. I take all of it with a lot of grains of salt.
Bruce: Stop worrying. AB has withdrawn from participation in this year’s convention. I already sent a notice to Jim and Eric about it. No need to go into details. We just decided it was best.
And please stop threatening to call the FBI and/or police on me If you don’t want me to post here, All you have to do is select this comment from Comments in your User Control Panel, and check the box marked Ban User. You then select the option that shows my IP address and click it. No more posting. Anyone who owns a WordPress blog knows this. My truck is fully packed for vacation this weekend, and I have to go. Your deletion of this post will show you read it, and understand it. Sincerely, Robert
Going camping, Robert?
Well, we can at least wish Blevins a good time on his campout trip.
Documented linkage of the word “action” is first noted with the document that Nanette posted on page two, post #23 of this thread titled: The DB Cooper caper and Zodiac Jack linked? ….Absolutely, say’s the sum of the evidence!
with “ACTION GUIDE” on the document QC40, which tells me that it’s an FBI file document and was received by the Sacramento Bee on 12-12-69. The second hint(s) of the word “action” is found on the airline ticket in the way “DAN COoPEr”was structured. The crossbar in the letter A is slanted forward, like the crossbars are, for example, in the original Star Trek TV series, which is a throwback to the old comic book style of fonts that place emphasize on the term ‘action.’
The word “action” is also emphasized with the implied word “Faction” on the JonBenet Ramsey ransom note, by the way it’s specifically structured. Going back to the DAN COoPEr airline ticket, not only is there yet another example of his repeated hint at ‘jt’ with the way he structured the letter P, an anagram for the word ‘action’ is also contained within the DAN COoPEr signature. On the QC40 document also note the line over the word “WANT,” which is a modifier that inverts the statement into “not WANT.” The Ramsey ransom note is laced with several ‘not’ modifiers.
In the Cooper Norjak files that have the taunting post Cooper caper documents, very noteworthy is the fact that there are BD vs DB Cooper documents, which I as a researcher recognize as a hint to the 1947 Black Dahlia case of the brutal murder of Elizabeth Short. Ms Short’s remains were placed at 34.0164N by 118.333W. Noteworthy standouts are 118, 333 and the fact that these coordinates are expressed in decimals vs minutes and seconds. I attribute 333 to be his way of placing emphasis on the number 3 and have noted that linked document evidence has 3ea examples of each item that he placed emphasis on. 118 is a key number in the Ramsey case, found once on the ransom note, and once with John Ramsey’s bonus pay of $118,117.50, which is 50 cents ‘Short’ of a figure of $118,118. So, it works out that we end up with 4ea examples of the 118 figure in total. Are all of these things a mere coincidence? I think not.
According to FBI bios….
Richard worked in Seattle then SF,, Michael worked in Phoenix then SF…
——————–
MICHAEL A.TOSAW, born Feb 18,1919. Entered FBI duty in February 1952 and his first office was Phoenix, AZ. Then went to San Francisco to join his brother, Dick. As a special agent in the San Francisco Office, he was an instructor for sheriff and police departments. Retired from the Bureau in 1975.
Was a football player with Iowa University along with Heisman Trophy winner, Nile Kinnick, in 1939. One of the cases he worked on was the Patty Hearst Case.
His hobbies are gardening, drawing cartoons, painting portraits and he is a world-class story teller.
Married______ and has three children: _______, _______ and Shelly, and four grandchildren.
RICHARD T. TOSAW, born March 13, 1925, and grew up in Omaha, NE. Entered FBI duty in April 1951 and went to his first office in Seattle, then to San Francisco Applicant and Security Squads. Left the bureau in December 1955 (his brother Mike was in the same office).
Attended Nebraska University, Creighton University and received his LLB from Denver University in 1950. Practiced law for many years in California’s San Joaquin Valley. Wrote a book about the famous skyjacker called D.B. Cooper, Dead or Alive and is also writing a book about his search for Glenn Miller, the band leader who disappeared in 1944 over the English Channel.
Owns a company called The Bureau of Missing Heirs. Inc.(they go around the country looking for heirs in California probate cases).
He is single: never married.
Thank you, Fly. I appreciate the update on Richard Tosaw and his brother.
Skyjack lifted-copied his post from “Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI”: edited by Turner Publishing, a Google e book after a search for Mike Tosaw. https://books.google.com/books?id=8h406aDUeL4C&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=Mike+Tosaw+Iowa+football&source=bl&ots=pQrxJlBddP&sig=ACfU3U2ckPFLXE8jITq8xTwJvD0-xNJoTw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiehtv3sZfhAhVHTt8KHcocAhMQ6AEwDXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Mike%20Tosaw%20Iowa%20football&f=false
Next question is, is the info Flyjacker posted correct? Ha Ha Ha.
Yes Flyack is in the copy and paste business. I confirmed your link with Flyjack’s copy job. But, when did Mike Tosaw play with Nile Kinnick and the Ironmen? It isnt in any records! And it was not on the famous 1939 Ironman team. In fact, no MIKE TOSAW is even recorded or listed as ever playing football at UI. 85 guys showed up in the Spring of 1939 and by Fall only 30 were left and Mike Tosaw isnt on any of those lists, or on any other list Ive seen. So Flyjack needs to give some proof that Mike Toisaw played with Nile Kinnick and when ? Just cut and paste and copy if you find something.
Goerger a such poor researcher, no wonder he hasn’t evolved in the Cooper case.
Lots of proof out there, easy to find G. Do your own homework next time.
Mike Tosaw University of Iowa spring 1938
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/19898861/the_daily_times/
Mike Tosaw fall 1938
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/19898673/globegazette/
Mike Tosaw and Nile Kinnick mentioned fall 1938.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/128430038/
“The football fever hit a high level in Iowa City, before the Hawkeyes headed here to board the train. Jack Eicherly, captain of the 1938 Iowa team, ignited a monster bonfire to start the demonstration and the band, students and towns people split the air with Hawkeye yells. Men Selected. “Men selected for the trip were: Ends Erwin Prasse, Jens Nor-gaard, Kenneth Pettit, Dick Evans, Max Hawkins, Fred Martin, Joe Moore. Tackles Henry Luebcke, Jim Kelley, Matt Miletich, Charles Tol-lefson, Mike Tosaw, Wilbur Nead. Allen and Brady. Guards Bob Allen, Charles Brady, Bob Herman, Ham Snider, Carl Vergamini. Centers Bruno Andruska, Jack McCambridge, Chester Poluga, Roscoe Carney. Quarterbacks Mike Enich, Russell Busk, Otto Huebner. Dean and Kinnirk. Halfbacks Capt. Jack Eicherly, Buzz Dean, Nile Kinnick, Ed McLain, Ray Murphy, Jerry Niles, Red Olson, Al Schenck, Carl Sullivan. Fullbacks Frank Balazs, Carl Blandin.”
Helluva find, FLY.
The above comment has been modified due to inappropriate and provocative language.
UPDATE ON THE TOSAW BROTHERS
I just received this Galen:
If I mis-spoke, I’d like to correct now. Richard Tosaw worked out of the Seattle FO as a sworn agent, early 50’s, not out of SF FO. His older brother Mike was at SF FO and rose to SAC. Mike played college football, not Richard. Richard graduated from law school in Nebraska, either Creighton or Drake….I forget. Richard went into private practice in CA and ended up in Ceres, near Stockton. He later founded “Bureau of Missing Heirs,” his own business and part of his law
practice. I actually first contacted Tosaw in 1984 and he mailed me a signed copy of his book. Then, he signed the book twice more in 2005 and 2008, a collector’s item for sure. After our five-day investigation on the Columbia he asked me to move to CA and be his associate attorney. I rejected b/c I had my own office in Spokane and liked living there. Tosaw died in 9/09 from prostate cancer. His office contacted me and gave me part of his DBC file for “safe keeping.” For two years I had the NB8 that Cossey gave to Tosaw. Then Tosaw’s niece called and requested it. I gave it to her. The last time I ever saw Tosaw was in Starbucks at 8th and Columbia in Vancouver, WA. we drank coffee for two hours and spent the entire time going over the flight path of 305. He expressed much interest and agreement of the FBI’s version of the flight path, according to Carr.
GC
Those newspaper clippings will be sent to the UI Athletic Office so they can correct their history! Tosaw is listed as living in Logan – Iowa? The names of other students named in these articles will be compared to other lists. It would appear Richard Tosaw spoke the truth when he said his brother played football with Nile Kinnick at UI. Interesting.
FBI Cooper vault #35 file is up.
https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/d.b.-cooper-part-35-of-35/view
Let see how quick Shutter’s site is to catch on.. and repeat my post again.
repeat what post..I see the obsession continues?
I see now..Georger posted the latest pages weeks ago which I guess you are upset he didn’t mention your name and now you sit in the darkness awaiting a post?
Please, no credit necessary or expected… I posted the heads up for everyone but the good stuff won’t be until we get to the 1980 money find.
Let’s see how long it takes Georger to figure it out,, just for giggles.
new DB Cooper vid, Bryan and Ariel tavern…
Georger has claimed 2X that Tina claimed the money she was handed went back into the bag… does Georger have another source or is he making up stuff again.
IMO, these stories don’t make sense, Cooper just got $200k tried to give Tina some, she refused it then offered all three stews drink change from hours earlier, about $6 each. BS, these 302’s are hiding something. Tina’s excuse occurred after she refused the money.
Tina interview,, no mention of money going back in bag or pocket or anywhere.
“She took the bag reportedly containing the money back to seat 18-E, which seat was still occupied by the hijacker. He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Miss Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package. Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion, the hijacker stated that the crew could now permit the passengers to deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers could at time disembark. Miss Mucklow recalled that she, in an attempt at being humorous, stated to the hijacker while the passengers were unloading that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and she wondered if she could have some. The hijacker immediately agreed with with her suggestion and took one package of the money, denominations unrecalled by Miss Mucklow, and handed to her. She returned the money, stating to the hijacker that she was not permitted to accept gratuities or words to that effect. In this connection she Miss Mucklow recalled that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket and had attempted to tip all the girls on the crew. Again they declined in compliance with the company.
After the passengers deplaned, Miss Mucklow stated that in accordance with instructions from the hijacker, she went out to get the parachutes he had requested. She brought back one large parachute (back pack) first, stating that she could only carry one parachute of this kind at a time. It was after she brought this first parachute into the aircraft that he told her to lower all the window shades in the section of the aircraft. After pulling down these shades, Miss Mucklow than again left the aircraft and this time brought back the two smaller parachute packs (chest packs) and gave these to the hijacker. She made a last trip from the aircraft then to obtain another of the large parachute packs (another back pack). All of the parachutes were given to the hijacker and he was observed by Miss Mucklow to be looking them over as she left them with him. She also recalled that at this time all hostesses and male crew members were still aboard the aircraft.”
Schaffner interview, Flo picked up the money bag to check weight..
“Schaffner said that after the all the passengers had deboarded the plane, she, Tina and Alice, the other stewardess on the flight, began talking to the man. He instructed Tina to go out again and get the parachutes. She said that while Tina made several trips to bring in all four parachutes, she conversed with the hijacker.
She said that the hijacker talked about how heavy the money was and asked her to lift it. She said that she picked up the bag of money and remarked as to how heavy it was.
She said at this point, she felt as though the hijacker was acting very childish. She said that she felt as though she was humoring him. She said said that the man offered her and the other stewardesses on the flight, money which was was change from the $20 bill he had given her for the drink. She told him that they did not accepts tips. She said that he did not appear to resent this and said no more about it.
Schaffner said that by this time the man had begun putting on one of the back parachutes, and at sometime during their conversation had put on a pair of sunglasses.
Schaffner said that she and Alice turned and walked toward the forward exit of the plane. She said that Tina went to the rear of the plane and picked up the telephone. She said as she was walking out of the plane, she recalled that she had left her purse on the stewardess seat on the rear of the plane. She said said that she returned to the plane, and when she approached the hijacker, said, “Sir, I forgot my purse.” She said that he smiled and told her she could go ahead and get it. She said that after getting her purse, she left the plane while Tina was still on the plane.”
Fly, can you be 100% certain about who Georger has talked to that was involved with the hijacking and has first hand info? do we have to go by what is available on the internet only?
If you had information given to you and that person died. can I call you a liar for spreading BS?
would you take two twenties out of your wallet to loan someone and they only took one, would you put the other 20 back in the wallet or in your pocket. the wallet is in your hand?
It isn’t in Tina’s 302,,
Georger has a history of making up stuff, he claimed Tina was asked and clarified that the bank bands were rubber bands not paper.. (paraphrasing)
I challenged him for proof he had none as it never happened.
Now, you and Georger are quick to demand proof of claims by others yet you accept this. Seems hypocritical.
But, it isn’t important, Georger’s claim is not credible unless he has proof which I doubt.
The real issue is where did the money go since it is the only money that we know of that was separated form the entire stash?
Did it go back into the bag, did it go into his coat pocket, did it go to one or more of the stews…. and was it the packets that ended up at TBAR?
Fly, you read into things wrong. Georger has zip to do with this. I BROUGHT IT UP ALL BY MYSELF.
Perhaps he doesn’t owe you anything? I can’t speak for Georger as you do but that’s my take on it. you automatically assume things to often. Georger is in your head pretty good.
I can say that he has first hand knowledge on a lot of things. can you say that, of course you can’t. nether can I. things are said that don’t make the papers. is it right to hold things like this back, no.
I asked him about the comment shortly after posting. he has an explanation so you might want to contact him instead of trying to discredit him! I don’t know if he will respond. that’s up to you guys. you don’t think any agents asked further questions in regards to statements made about the hijacking days, weeks, months later for clarification? the 302’s are set in stone, no changing them? have you spoke with agents who were at the dig, I have and I have Georger to thank for that.
I made the post at 2:10 pm and asked him in a PM at 3:59 pm this morning after I got home from working after hours at Rooms To Go…it was prior to you responding.
I didn’t read anything wrong,
This isn’t really about Georger, it is about the facts of the case. Georger claimed 2X that Tina said the money she was given went back into the bag, that is important but unsubstantiated. Georger has a history of making false and unsubstantiated claims about me, you, others and case evidence.
The context was whether Cooper had put the money into his over coat pocket and possibly ending up at TBAR.
I don’t care about Georger, I care about the facts.
More Flyjack baloney.
There is no doc that says the “single packet” offered Tina went back into: Cooper’s coat pocket, Cooper’s pants pocket, the money bag, Tina’s underwear, … or the horse’s ass!
This has nothing to do with Georger. This has to do with Flyjack’s persecution of Georger and others.
This post has been modified due to inappropriate and provocative language.
Classic Georger,,
He can’t back up his (false) assertion of fact, that Tina claimed the money went back into the bag… he just made it up. Now, when caught again, he throws a tantrum.
He did the same when he (falsely) claimed Tina was contacted and clarified that the money was in rubber bands, not paper..
Georger lies then doubles down.
The money may have gone back in the bag, the over coat pocket or a stews purse…
The same thing I have been researching…
Hahneman was a crewman on a C-47 in WW2,, they used an interphone.
377 wrote..
“”Cooper used the term “interphone” vs intercom or phone as Tina said she thought a passenger would say.”
Interphone is a term used a lot in WW2 acft and through the early 1970s. It refers to the amplified audio system that allows crew to talk to such other over head and handsets and also allows the distribution of comm radio audio to multiple crew members. Later aircraft, such as the F 14, seemed to use the term Intercom or ICS. The 727 had an interphone system often powered by Gables Engineering Interphone Amplifier. P/N G-708-1 or C3670-4. NSN: 5831-00-306-4654.
It is curious that Cooper used the term Interphone. To me it indicates at least some familiarity with aircraft systems.
377″
To the owner-operator of this website:
STOP THE PERSECUTIONS OF PEOPLE ON THIS WEBSITE.
Note from Editor:
I’m happy to help. Can you give me more specifics on who needs my help, and how I can best help them. Thanks.
-BAS
There is an alternative, and much more plausible, explanation regarding the money find on Tena Bar.
Tina Mucklow stated she saw Cooper putting cash into one of the reserves. It is then argued that Cooper realized he couldn’t fit all of the ransom in the reserve so he changed his mind and put it back into the bank bag which he later secured using shroud lines from one of the reserves. Again, Mucklow witnessed Cooper putting packets into one of the reserves.
Here’s the thing. I measured the size of the bank bag holding the ransom and discovered two very important things:
First, the bank bag with ransom was significantly larger than each of the reserves. Why is this important? Because merely observing the bank bag next to the reserve it is quite noticeable that the much bigger bank bag will not fit into the much smaller reserve. This tells me that Cooper wasn’t trying to put the entire ransom in the reserve, just a portion of it.
Second, the bank bag was very full–within at least 8 inches from the top. Why is this important? Because given the diameter of the bank holding the ransom, which I determined was 8.5″, this means there was no more than 4 inches of excess bank bag to cinch at the top. In other words, the bank bag was too full to securely cinch at the top with shroud lines. This suggests that Cooper removed some of the packets of bills from the bank bag to afford him extra room at the top of the bank bag to tie it tightly. These removed packets–as witnessed by Mucklow–were placed into one of the reserves for the journey out of the jet.
Now, given that only one of the reserves was missing–specifically, the dummy reserve–I suspect it was the dummy reserve that Mucklow saw Cooper loading some packets into.
What happens next? Well, when Cooper lands he immediately retrieves the excess packets from the dummy reserve and stashes the reserve, main parachute and attache’ case near where he landed. Then, I propose that he fled the area quickly with the bag of ransom and the extra packets probably stuffed in his coat pocket–remember, the money bag is tied at the top.
Cooper eventually arrives at Tena Bar, decides to bury the bank bag and loose excess packets of twenties for a period of time while he figures a way out of the area. Later, whether one week, two weeks, a month, whatever, Cooper comes back, under cover of darkness, and retrieves the bank bag and loose packets from the Tena Bar burial site. The problem is, Cooper doesn’t notice that three of the loose packets are left behind and are reburied. Eight years later, due to significant beach erosion, those three packets are unearthed by Mother Nature and Brian Ingram.
That is not simpler..
For reasons related to my specialty, I like that you used the term “attache'”, thank you! The FBI files make it clear that the drop zone was just east of Le Center Washington. This location was fixed by the flight path, the timing noted by the pilots, a Portland land based radar and by Northwest Orient Airlines…which makes it a valid fix. Then the FBI brass took the whole works sideways and up to the Merwin Dam area based on the false assumption that the UNSUB pulled the rip cord ASAP. However, that’s not how airdrops were done in SE Asia…and done with the same basic esoteric knowledge that Cooper had on how to set up the 727 plane in order to make a precision jump. Just east of LeCenter is an area of several conjoined plowed fields, and it’s stated that it’s an easy “step off” landing with a slight cross wind. So now Cooper can either stash the loot in that area, so that he’s not caught with it on his person, or it goes in the back of his vehicle which he takes to I5 right back down to California”. Oh…and probably right past Paradise State Park, which has a keyword that fits his ‘order out of chaos’ frame of mind. Otherwise he’d have one hell of a hike down and over to Tina Bar (Tena bar?) and in loafers too, loafers that he probably tied to his feet.
Now, several contingent scenarios can be conjured up to explain how the small amount of loot ended up near Tina bar. BTW, when I first arrived here, I could use Google maps and get LeCenter and Tena/Tina bar on the same page…now I can’t locate Tena/Tina Bar via Google maps, which is par for the course. Here’s my conjured up scenario(s) that explains the Tina Bar location: Cooper removes $200 cash and pockets it as a souvenir (and a probable insurance policy,) he takes the rest of the $5800 and A) puts it in his rain coat and it blows out onto the stairs and rides there until the turbulence encountered over the east-west portion of the Columbia River dislodges it, where it then lands in the river. Or B) he later stashes it at Tena bar in order to confuse the whole works. Oh, and of greatest importance are the post Cooper FBI documents that Bruce has referred to as the “Core Four.” This same group of documents are several, cryptic and contain hints that prove that he survived the jump, especially the Playboy cutout about the Bow and Brummel clip-on tie ad.
I have done some reading on Coopers actions before he jumped. This EU guy says this or that. Heres my question. If Cooper tried putting money into one of the reserves, then where the hell did the canopy inside that reserve go? If he tried this he would have had to remove the canopy first because there would be no room for the money otherwise. Some stuff I read claimed the reserve at least the fake one was sewn shut. so what about that? None of his claims add up. And if Cooper opened the other reserve by pulling the ripcord he would have to disconnect the chute from the container too. Nothing said about the chute being separated from the container after it was found. Cooper would have to do that before trying to use it. Sounds like a load of speculation to me.
nothing indicates two chutes, or containers were tampered with. the container wasn’t sewn shut, the panels of the canopy were to make it easier to use for training purposes..
This is a good and insightful question. That said, the answer actually lends validity to my theory.
The dummy reserve was modified by virtue of half of the canopy panels being removed. This was done so as to lower the bulkiness of it and make it easier to stuff back into the canister while being used as a ground training reserve. In fact, according to Cossey the difference between the mass of the genuine reserve and dummy reserve was noticeable when holding them.
Also, it’s important to remember that the term “canister” is somewhat of a misnomer. What I mean is that if you remove everything from the canister it essentially becomes a flat canvas sheet. In fact, the canister folds around the guts of the parachute.
This means that the best way to transport several packets is to cram them in the extra space afforded in the dummy reserve because the integrity of the reserve is still intact.
Finally, the dummy reserve was not sewn shut. This is something that is occasionally repeated because the “canopy” was sewn shut, not the “canister.”
It’s typically called a container…
Yes, container not canister.
Do you know the size of the bank bag.. One witness said it was about “two feet tall”.. pqge # 2039 in FBI files..
That means there was lots of excess bag above the money.
The bank bag had to be 14″ X 28″ because the cash wouldn’t fit into any of the three smaller versions. I’ve analyzed the volume of the ransom which was 858 cubic inches in it’s smallest state and compared it to the bank bag which could hold up to 1360 cubic inches completely open at the top. Through an entire series of calculations I determined that there was a maximum of 8″ of material to cinch at the top, which given the 8.5″ diameter of the open bag means Cooper would have a maximum of 4″ of bag to cinch with the shroud lines. Obviously this is not enough to secure tightly. Cooper had no choice but to remove some of the packets of cash to cinch it properly. These packets were seen being put in a reserve by Mucklow. The only reserve missing was the dummy reserve.
The size of the canvas bag bag is an assumption.
but,
Seattle First bank claimed money was 11 x 12 x 6.5 = 858 cu/in
Agent “estimated” 12 x 12 x 8 or 9 = 1296 cu/in
Actual bill size = .0043 x 6.14 x 2.61 (x10000) = 689 cu/in
689 cu/in is new bills, circulated bills in packets are 15%-20% larger = 792 – 826 cu/in
858 cu/in by Bank is an estimate, IMO on the high end.
Where did Mucklow state packets were being put in the reserve? container? she said wrapped in white material. If Cooper used the reserve drogue to wrap the bank bag then the size/volume doesn’t matter.
FBI notes that the drogue chute was missing from the cut up reserve likely used wrap the bank bag and money to tie to himself.
“On 11/26/71 SAC CAMPBELL from Las Vegas, advised that when they entered the airplane there was an open parachute in the plane, draped over one of the seats in the vicinity where the hijacker was located, which parachute was white.
Examination of this parachute reveals there was no drogue chute on it.
The stewardess on the plane when interviewed said that the hijacker was upset when the money was not delivered in a knapsack. As a result she saw him wrap this money in some white material.” p 1672 FBI files
Banks states 12 x 12 x 9
that was an estimate by the agent.. not the bank..
Bank claimed 11 x 12 x 6.5
both are consistent in size..
No, they aren’t “consistent”, not even close, one is about 50% larger in volume, 858 cu/in vs 1296 cu/in
Looks like dropzone reopened the Cooper thread. Im headed over to check out if its true.
Apparently it is true. Guess Who just called to tell me.
A pilot chute was not in the reserves……
I was wondering about that. Do only Main chutes have pilot chutes?
I think when Tosaw found that flare chute it was then that they stated none of the chutes had pilots.
I don’t know anything about parachutes,,, but here is the full text. What exactly did Tosaw claim?
Dated… 11/26/71 FBI file p 1672
On 11/26/71 SAC CAMPBELL from Las Vegas, advised that when they entered the airplane there was an open parachute in the plane, draped over one of the seats in the the hijacker was located, which parachute was white.
Examination of this parachute reveals there was no drouge chute on it.
The stewardess on the plane when interviewed said that the hijacker was upset when the money was not delivered in a knapsack. As a result she saw him wrap this money in some white material.
SAC CAMPBELL speculates that the money was wrapped in the chute. He advised the second parachute in the plane is a backpack, which has never been opened. It is pink and it is being taken to the National Guard in Reno at once to see if it is in workable condition.
typo,, drogue
but Cossey did not claim there were no drogue/pilot chutes, he claimed the one Tosaw found was of an earlier era due to stitching. In fact he suggests they did have a drogue/pilot chute.
“Cossey reportedly claimed that the pilot chute found by Tosaw was not one that would have been part of the chutes that he gave to NWO because the stitching and materials indicated it was from an earlier era.
Cook says that he has spoken recently with Cossey, who confirmed his prior opinion that the pilot chute was not part of the NB-8 or Pioneer “luxury type” parachutes that Cooper received.”
All reserve chutes have pilots. Differnce is reserve pilot is spring loaded mostly.
Cook says that he has spoken recently with Cossey ???
Cossey is dead!
from 2012 G.
Cook channeled Cossey. Lol!
Tom Kaye didn’t know anything about it either…
“All emergency bailout rigs, such as the ones provided to DB Cooper, would have a pilot chute,” Metzler said.
so it is missing….
reserve?
This is inaccurate. Emergency rigs do not have a pilot chute. They are meant to deploy as quickly as possible because they may be used a precious few feet above the ground.
What I meant was if Coop was going to use reserve to hold the money he would have to unhook the chute from container. No one has said that chutes found on the plane had the canopys unhooked from them. just one opened and lines cut from it. other one not opened. other two gone. And if he used the dummy to hold money then where is the canopy
without a pilot chute to throw out how would you get an emergency rig to deploy. Cant just grab the whole canopy and throw it into the breeze. I will guess u have never gone to skydiving classes. neither have i though. Maybe you should ask an expert and settle this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_chute
I just asked 377 about this. He told me that emergency rigs with round canopies always have pilot chutes but do not have canopy sleeves because that slows down deployment.
I believe a emergency bailout rig is a back chute. reserves get in the way with pilots…
i was wrong. Guess the older reserve chutes you just pulled out the canopy and tossed it out.
Sure enough! Robert Blevins is back at the new and improved Drop Zone. He was the first one back. It won’t take long for him to dominate all topics. Since he was booted off of both Shutter’s and Bruce’s sites, you can bet Blevins will be giving hell to everyone and anyone who crosses his path.
I went there and saw that. Didnt see what you said, He thanked dropzone for opening it up again. Guess we will see.
Blevins put pics of his blue jalopy up at the DZ. I mean, come on, who gives a rat’s ass.
Blevins put pics of his blue jalopy up at the DZ. I mean, come on, who gives a rat’s ass.
It’s not a Cooper thread to Robert. it’s like Facebook to him. impressing people is one of his features along with how much he spends on things. don’t forget the 3 year ongoing movie deal that was set in stone over a year ago lol. it won’t take long for disaster to roll in. Jo will soon show up and the family will reunite once again 🙂
once the new smell is gone and they start disagreeing the fireworks will begin.
Not my business but dont think you are being fair. Blevens gave pretty good explanation on the movie thing. Old car like that he couldnt have paid much for it. Havent seen one bad comment over there yet and its the flyjack and wolfriver guys doing most of the comments. Blevens sometimes. He aint stupid I can see that much. Maybe you are jealous because the Cooper people are talking over there now?
You appear to be very late in the game. I’ll leave it at that.
Or, you could ask Bruce why he would ban such a nice smart guy 🙂
Good day.
I get it some of you dont like Blevens. But it isnt his fault someone decided to open dropzone again. So he posts there. Dont see where he hurts anything by doing that. You run a big site on Cooper. Seen it. Sounds like you might be mad they opened dropzone again. If he gets out of line he will get banned there too. Why worry about it. If hes like you say he is he wont last long.
I made one comment? I simply replied to someone. I didn’t post a new comment. you need to follow a little better when speaking about someone and there intentions. I don’t think anyone said it was his fault they opened the forum either? you read into things rather oddly..nobody even knows who you are. you seem drawn to me vs the others who spoke first hours prior to my comment?
I went around here and looked at some of the articles on Cooper is all. Blevens guy gets talked about a lot and most of it is bad. When I go and see his stuff elsewhere I dont get why. Thats all. I only know you because your name here is the same as your website and I know you run that. Read his thing about the convention and him trying to stop it or change it or something. Did you and your friends really say his suspect was a molester. LOL no wonder he dont like you guys. Whatevers going on I think its mutual on both sides. I dont judge it but I think some of you should grow up a little bit. I give Blevens some respect because he got the movie deal and for all those articles he has out there. So many I couldnt read them all. Theres no respect going here for any of you guys. Lot of fighting though.
Fair enough. the comments regarding Kenny being a molester were made here and not by my friends. Roberts suspect is on record that he took in young runaway boys and gave them gifts, feed them. the town was talking about him. Kenny was also gay. so some took advantage of this. was he a molester, I doubt it..I’ve said this many times.
Robert has done a lot of bad things over the last 4-5 years. threatens law suits, makes articles that are incorrect about many of us. he even tells producers to stay away from us.
several years ago Robert was pushing his suspect hard on Dropzone and constantly asked people to look into his story. well, we did just that and found a load of problems that shot down a lot of his evidence. it’s been downhill ever since. I seen the disaster of Dropzone closing and started the forum. he quickly joined under a false name to continue to stir the pot. I banned him permanently and he has been on a one man crash course ever since. according to Bruce, he’s even threatened physical violence. this guy is 65 years old and acts like he’s 12 when crossed. he will bombard you with endless emails ranting over and over about petty things said. he seems to have two personalities sometimes. the real Robert will come out sooner or later.
Eric Ulis wanted to start an annual Cooper event. everything was fine until all of the sudden Robert sends an email to the country club once against threatening a law suit if anything negative was said about his suspect. he doesn’t have authority over any living person when it comes to this case. Kenny is dead anyway, no liable can be done.
When he wants something he will be the nicest guy within 500 miles. I don’t want anything to do with him. that’s the bottom line. he has been this way for over a decade with this case. to turn over a new leaf will be a miracle at the least.
The above is just a small portion of him. respect? he doesn’t deserve a drop. all I did was ban him and claim Kenny wasn’t Cooper. you gloss over every single bad thing, and there is tons of them with him and ask us to give him respect? are you Gayla?
Whos Gayla? Is that a joke? Im straight if thats what you mean. Yes yes i get it you dont like him. But your story doesnt match exactly with what Blevens says elsewhere. Some stuff is the same sure.Other stuff not. I think both of you have issues going. If Blevens is Dr Evil like you say then how did he get 700 people to follow him at that one website. How did he get a movie deal. Looks like both of you have fans and maybe thats why you dont like the guy. He gets 700 followers and a movie deal even though you dont like him. I got banned from a couple of websites because I voted for Trump. Like I care about that.
I never said Robert was dumb. the issue is his behavior here and other Cooper forums. not Quora. I have a Facebook page with over a thousand likes, big deal? this was long before Quora or any movie deal. you bring up the jealousy thing just as Robert does. I told him I didn’t want anything to do with the film. the issue is not going around gaining likes, or viewers. the subject surrounds his behavior in this community. it’s like sticking up for a serial killer who appears to be nice? no I’m not comparing Robert to a serial killer so don’t go there. it’s an example. if he dug up Cooper in his back yard it wouldn’t change my views on him. he has been caught multiple times lying. something he always claims to be against. I don’t wish to engage with him with anything related to this case. it’s that simple. paint the picture anyway you wish.
Okay, I was going to wait for tomorrow (for obvious reasons because it’s also April Fools Day)…
But you have been officially ‘Punk’d’, my friend.
I just wanted to see how far you would go talking badly about me if you REALLY believed you were talking to someone else. Someone relatively unfamiliar to the Cooper case. April Fools on YOU. 🙂
Come on, man. Lighten up. I knew you wouldn’t be able to resist once my name came up in the conversation. You have to like the deliberate misspellings and the lack of apostrophes I used to fool you. My apologies, but you are as predictable as rain in Seattle.
I have seen the negative postings at the Cooper Forum regarding the re-opening of the DZ thread. Not nice, you know. You deserved to have a little joke played on you. No worries, though. I won’t try it again and you probably wouldn’t fall for it a second time anyway. I have copied our exchanges into a Word doc for printing. I think I will frame it for the office. 🙂
Sincerely,
‘You Know Who’
was already onto ya…
No you weren’t. Never mind. It was just a joke and no harm done. I see you are back at DZ. I even gave you a welcome.
Robert, do you always believe your BS? Trump voter, jealousy, direct response to me. gloating about numbers. radar directly on me with other bad comments ignored.
Just like when you joined the forum we knew it was probably you.
I never had a clue, right 🙂
The comment on the DZ was to try and slow down the misinformation flying all over the place already. I’ll sit back and wait for the fireworks if ya don’t mind.
Bruce, you let Blevins in and it’s not even April fools day yet. Is he at Shutter’s site now too? The guy simply cannot be stopped.
I don’t think there will be any fireworks. And I was only kidding about printing and posting in my office. Look, anyone and everyone interested in the Cooper case can post to the DZ thread. I think admin Meso over there is serious about banning people, and frankly I’m tired of all the dumb fighting. You have to remember it’s been TEN years since I first got involved in the Cooper case, and even I got tired of it all. I have no plans to stir up trouble there. I even told people at the start I wasn’t going to discuss KC there, only point them to this article or that one if they had questions. There haven’t been any questions and I am just fine with that. And I shouldn’t post any further here. A joke is one thing, but that’s over.
I even told people at the start I wasn’t going to discuss KC there…
lol, you have never said that before..glad you changed lmao.
Maybe we should frame that one! 🙂
Yo, Gypsy. We’ve got a whack-a-mole situation here with certain posters. Such is life.
What the hell. It’s a wacky DB Cooper world out there…….
Lotsa whacks, if you catch my drift…
The fireworks have been lit by Derek..no shock there. he also accused Tom Kaye of being a communist lol.
“I get banned because it’s your forum shutter. You keep pushing “Blevins” Shutter and you will end up like Cossey. At least he will mail your wallet back to your family a few weeks later ”
I never knew Robert was a gangster lmao.
The DZ will never really get very far, folks. Mountain News and DB Cooper Forum now run the investigation. Except for Blevins and Derek, no one else cares about DZ. btw, is the Cossey murder case still open? Where was Blevins on that night?
DZ is the DZ…it’s been that way for years while it was running. it’s not starting off very well which is no surprise. I don’t think reaching to the levels of murder will ever resolve the issue either. Derek is actually worse than Blevins. he attacks with anger far greater. he uses blurry photo’s as evidence. doesn’t present his case properly. he must live on Twitter or somewhere it’s limited with characters. he likes to hit and run with things that don’t make sense.
No forum will get very far.. none has.
Collaborative investigating doesn’t work in this case. You need to do your own homework.
Once you achieve a higher level of case knowledge, you don’t learn anything new from forums. So, they are biased to the collective aka mediocrity.
What is needed is a closed group of mutually respected individuals with high level of knowledge to hash out new ideas via intellectual exploration that may or may not pan out without getting attacked. However, the competitive nature of the case makes that a big ask.. 90% of the info I have I won’t share as I don’t trust or respect most other sleuths.
That is the catch 22..
FLYJACK is right!
What? The new and improved DZ looks more like a personal chat site between two fellas who can’t write or spell. Tom Kaye is a commie and Blevins might whack Shutter? I’d say Blevins is more likely to whack off with his new best friend Derek. Lol. I think I’ll ignore the DZ for now, unless Shutter ends up missing and Tom Kaye is seen with the Ruskies setting up missiles in Venezuela.
Fly, if you’d like to try trusting me, I’d be up for the adventure.
I think Tom is Russian. I can see him from my house lmao….
Bruce is right. He is someone who possesses secret info from a handful of Cooper researchers…myself included.
BTW, Bruce it’s about time for a new DB Cooper article so we all don’t have to scroll down 650+ messages.
Ahmen to that.
Your safe with Tom. But can you see BLEVINS??? lol
I was wondering about that. guess I was saving my Cooper writing energies for a substantive article on the current search for DBC at T-Bar, but somehow that effort keeps getting postponed. Just saying… smile….
Come on guys…you aren’t being exactly fair here. Let me do a quote with some REAL WORLD responses.
“No forum will get very far.. none has.”
RESPONSE: *DZ forum gathered more than a million views and is actually FAMOUS. Derek has issues, yes. But he will eventually run out of pictures to post.*
“Collaborative investigating doesn’t work in this case. You need to do your own homework.”
RESPONSE: *Agreed. The main reason is some folks believe they are Cooper Royalty, and there is much posturing and jockeying for position among those folks. Unfortunately, this kind of thing can alienate the public, rather than attract them to your way of thinking.*
“Once you achieve a higher level of case knowledge, you don’t learn anything new from forums. So, they are biased to the collective aka mediocrity.”
RESPONSE: *In the case of a forum like the DZ, something you can go back years and research, yes…you can learn something new. At least if you are NEW to the case. All of the old folk know most of what is there already. In the case of Shutter’s Cooper Forum, it’s a solid site YES. But it shoots itself in the foot by disallowing views of all pictures and internet links to any public views. Even DZ doesn’t do that. If you post links and pictures there, only registered users can see them and actual ACTIVE users there are relatively few.*
“What is needed is a closed group of mutually respected individuals with high level of knowledge to hash out new ideas via intellectual exploration that may or may not pan out without getting attacked.”
RESPONSE: *You are already there. It’s called Cooper Royalty. Nice folks, sure. And five years later after discussing to death issues such as Tina Bar and different suspects, is practically no further along than it was five years ago.*
“However, the competitive nature of the case makes that a big ask.. 90% of the info I have I won’t share as I don’t trust or respect most other sleuths.”
RESPONSE: You are right not to trust other sleuths, because again…they busy themselves with activities and statements solely designed to point to their suspect alone. In the case of people like Bruce Smith, this is far less true.
HERE IS A HARD TRUTH: It is better to share everything with the public, and ignore the sleuths. The reason being that the case will probably never be solved anyway without a big break from the public. So…the more you reach the public on the Cooper case, the better the chance it will eventually be solved.
You are right saying there are Catch 22’s involved in this whole thing. I prefer to go full-out, all-public, with no restrictions. I think this will eventually generate the best results. .
“Derek has ISSUES.” Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black?
From all the info, including Carr, I assume the DNA is Mitochondrial and not Nuclear.
Mitochondrial can match 10-20% of the population while Nuclear is unique. That is why the DNA can exclude but not include as the matching population is large. It also makes familial DNA matching virtually useless.
So a Mitochondrial DNA match is virtually useless. Can only really eliminate.
But, is there a way to get DNA from the cut reserve lines, Cooper must have held them to cut them. New DNA tech might be able to get a better sample.
Problem might be with the number of people who have handled the reserve chute. FBI agents, the Citizen Sleuths team, etc although the CS folks almost certainly used gloves. Possible though.
Look…I don’t know a clean sheet from shinola when it comes to DNA, but I got a phone call and an email from Seattle FBI agent Fred Gutt after I inquired about the DNA sample. This was like six or seven years ago. He said two things: The FBI will no longer pay for analysis of a suspect’s DNA against the tie sample without a real good reason. (Don’t have the budget for it) Second, the sample they have can eliminate someone, but not confirm them as the hijacker. That’s all I know. I am trying to get a certain company in LA to approach them to release the partial profile publicly. That way, if people want to pay the money to do their OWN comparisons, they can. What’s the point of keeping it secret? Let’s face it…Cooper is probably dead anyway, if nothing else from old age.
Tell you one thing. I’m beginning to understand why Derek was banned from the Cooper Forum, and I completely sympathize with Shutter on that one. Holy cow. I would have done the same. NEWS: AB of Seattle is going to do editing, cover creation, and Kindle assistance on a book regarding Klansnic…only ‘they’ are working with Nick B, not Derek. Nick makes an announcement on all this in Part Two of his interview for the Darren Schaefer podcast. Only Part One is out, but second part coming soon I have heard. What the heck, there are plenty of Cooper-related books out already. One more can’t hurt. AB says no charge to do the Kindle version, but Derek will have to pay for ISBN and upload fees to Lightning Source if he wants paperback later. AB staff advised him to wait and decide later, depending on whether the Kindle sales warrant him investing the $300 or so to do six/nine paperback. AB will NOT be the publisher of record, but only listed as editor.
As far as Dropzone, I figure Derek will run out of pictures after a while. He stopped today (at least for now) when I told him about Nick’s upcoming book. He called a certain guy a serial killer today. That was no big deal, but when he picked on the green truck…(*smiles*) that was going too far.
So, what does Derek think of YOU, Mr. Blevins?
TK, it’s time to say goodbye to everyone here. I’m not going to have any more AB of Seattle and RMB craziness here.
Goodnight, and farewell.
Robert, it’s pretty obvious you haven’t a clue why? remember telling Bruce not to come to your house. how would you feel if he kept coming over every other day like you do here? you call Derek a spammer? that’s all you do. you claim Derek has issue’s. you have loads of them. you have no clue why I removed Derek. you can’t even see you have a lot in common with Derek. no clue what so ever. same for a ban. just because Bruce hasn’t banned your IP doesn’t give you the right to constantly intrude where you don’t belong. even if he did you would still return.
This is a DB Cooper discussion board. not a pickup truck/camping board. I have a Sim2 home theater projector I got for $250 that cost $12,000 plus. should I tell you about it every other week, post a link from a home theater page on all Cooper forums? someone gave me a countertop gas grill worth $2,000. should I go on the DZ and tell this story too? my truck has a vacuum leak? someone broke into my shed last week and stole my lawn equipment. that’s big Cooper material, no? a couple times a month I go into the Everglades on an airboat, post all about it here, the DZ? did you know I’m a drummer?
The DZ or places like here don’t have an area for off topic discussion. that doesn’t stop you on that either. Derek has issue’s, you don’t say?
Derek really isn’t the problemo.
Derek is more of a liar than Blevins. blurry pics all over the place. stories that can’t be backed up. lol, he’s trying to show a picture of Cooper at PDX.
Robert, if I don’t recall you were publicly banned from this site by Bruce. I think Meyer was also with you in this decision. why would you be hiding and using another fake name?
Does Derek need Blevin’s street address? Just askin.
On 12/2/71, ______ advised that the pijacked airplane was being flown on automatic pilot during most of the time it was in flight over the State of Washington and on down south.
_____ advised that because it was automatic pilot the crew might not be able to detect a change in the attitude of the flight caused by a 180-pound man parachuting from the back stairway. However, he advised that he is examining the flight recorder with a microscope which he expects will reveal “little bobs” or anomalies where the automatic pilot has mechanically made an adjustment to maintain the level flight of the aircraft.
He noted that there was a “little bob” at approximately 8:09 p.m. and based on that finding and the fact that the air stairs had gone down sometime earlier, _______ suggested that the search area probably should be extended to the north an additional three miles and to the south as far as the Columbia River.
Airstair light on means released, not down.
Placard looks like it went out around 8:06/8:07.. Cooper going down to end of Airstairs creating a larger opening for loose placard to exit.
Jumping at 8:09, two minutes later.
If the “little blob” was Cooper that puts him leaving close to Lewis R, just N or S?? Is that where the plane was at 8:09. Drift NE lands him just N of Lewis/Merwin dam.
Interesting tidbit, Fly. Thanks. Where did you get it? Sounds like a 302.
FBI file location noted a few posts down..
adjustments will always occur with the auto pilot correcting winds, turbulence etc.
The oscillation felt after Cooper left the plane at 8:09 was, or the fact of the pilots stating he left 5-10 minutes after the last contact?
That 8:09 “little bob” came from the data recorder.. the last contact was 8:05 according to transcript which is a different timestamp, it is 1-2 minutes late, noted at the end of transmission, that makes that 8:09 “little bob” about 5-6 minutes after last contact.
The FBI stated the plane was over Camp Wa at 8:05. That is 1 minute off the flightpath time. I don’t know which is correct.
but, if that “little blob” was Cooper, it was at 8:09 on the data recorder and that puts him landing just N of Merwin Dam accounting for drift.
One set of transcripts is off by several minutes. one states 8:10 and the other states 8:12. they would certainly know which was right or if one was off by a minute when it came to determining the time. then the takeoff is wrong and everything else. they would of known this. the aviation industry is pretty accurate with these things. trying to put holes in it will be a task. if anything, it’s matching the plane with the transcripts to get anywhere with timing.
Flying the path is the only way to determine errors. we have people questioning the Sage. two radar systems were monitoring the flight. I think they got a pretty good grip on things. the question is where was the plane at 8:12. a simulation puts it in the general area the map shows. we have traffic controllers stating they never left V23. if all of this is right. it appears he was successful in the landing to some extent since they are not certain on the time. the transcripts only show the oscillation. that’s the stairs going down. it’s pretty silent past that for some time.
the map can be off by one minute and one half mile to each side….
If Cooper went down the stairs at 8:06 they would of known something by the pressure change..8:09 is above Lake Merwin and several miles from the Lewis…plane crossed (according to the map) at around 8:10
Possibly, that is an assumption, the placard most likely left the plane when the stairs were at max opening. It was attached to an emergency access door which detaches completely. Hard to believe it went out the small opening at the end (when no weight on stairs).
If you agree Cooper removed it and was right handed he would of tossed it to his right. the stairs were hanging down and wind could of got on the stairs easily. none was in the cabin but the stairs are hanging out in the elements open I believe 20 degree’s.
The placard is interesting. I do see Robert and Eric’s point with drifting but the card can also spiral downward. I dropped a similar card from 40 feet in about 7-10 mph winds. the card drifted about 150 feet while tumbling. that could drift miles and miles in winds higher than 10 mph which they were. if it spiraled downward it would land close to where it exited.
IMO, the card could have drifted 7-12 plus miles if it started tumbling right away. these are the problems with nothing concrete.
It is still a small opening at the end, he probably just dropped it on the top steps, throwing it out a small opening at the end like a frisbee seems unlikely. I thought there was no wind in there.
wind is similar to water. it will seek it’s way in or out. I see all kinds of strange things during and after a hurricane and winds. I use to laugh at the attachments required for a 4 foot picket fence until I picked up a piece while installing it during a windy day. a lot of wind load was on it. more than I ever thought.
The placement of the card and timing on the transcripts will not allow that time frame. the oscillation would have been felt and they would have been on the transcripts at around that period. no way around it really.
Lets use the 8:10 oscillation…Cooper was on the plane and responded at 8:05. we clearly have 5 minutes between the two times. how can the oscillation happen any sooner between these two times?
There are two independent, (perhaps 3) timestamps. The recorder time had a “little bob” at 8:09, if that was the Crew’s “oscillation” it would have been recorded on the transcript 1-2 min later at 8:11. Makes sense. 8:05 was the transcript for last contact, less 1-2 minutes that makes it 8:03/4 real time, so 5-6 minutes apart. Also makes sense. The flightpath time is 1 minute off of the FBI file note claiming the plane was at Camp, Wa at 8:05.. So, where was the plane at 8:09 real time? There are two path versions 1 minute apart but including drift it looks like (if the 8:09 “little bob” was Cooper jumping) LZ was just NE of Merwin Dam.
The only “little bob” was 8:09 recorder time, there weren’t any others. That matches the Crew’s oscillation time (transcript timestamp less 2 min).
Perhaps calculate 4 min. plane travel distance based on speed from Camp Wa. for jump point, then account for drift. Where are we??
you can’t change the time stamps. i can’t explain any further….
I am not, 8:09 is the planes recorder real time that is consistent with the crew’s 8:12/11 time as the transcript time is delayed a few min for real time events. The crew felt the oscillation then transmitted it then it was entered and a time was stamped, The real event was a few min minutes earlier which matches the 8:09 real time recorder. FBI files claim Camp Wa at 8:05.
The flight recorder time is a more accurate real time than the TTY.. nobody is changing the timestamps they have different meanings, the flight recorder is real time and the TTY is after the message was processed. That is the whole point.
A plane will not fly straight as an arrow on auto pilot. it will make adjustments, small ones. there is no 8:09 “little Bob” on the transcripts. 5 minutes are between Cooper and the oscillation. that is written in the transcripts stamped by a clock.. you are changing the time on the transcripts and the map, and where the plane was by the placard?
Most of the transcripts are rounded off by the minute. scroll down on the transcripts and you will see the seconds added. it’s impossible to calculate without flying the path. well, maybe not impossible but they have the basic area correct IMO. the map can be one minute + – north and south and a half mile each side. I marked a takeoff time of 7:36:30 splitting the difference.
“Basic area correct” based on the time stamps and when Cooper was on the stairs. Carr believes they went by the oscillation and not the pressure bump which moves it further south.
Talking with Tom Kaye the other night and he believes the marks on the map could be from the Sage radar. they make X’s or + signs for the path. it’s just a guess but makes sense. old radar tracked that way.
The pilots, they stated he jumped somewhere around 5-10 minutes after the last contact. nothing about 3-4 minutes…zero. you can’t place anything between these two time stamps. even if the real time was off by 20 minutes, or even 2 hours. it’s still 5 minutes between the two transmissions.
next, someone will tell me to fly the path at 185 knots even though it’s not on the transcripts showing they used that speed. it won’t work.
Simulation is the best answer as to where the plane was. I crossed the Lewis at an average of 8:10:30 and change to almost 8:11. that’s the timing you need to look for.
There is no 3-4 minute time spread between events, where do you see that?
Shutter, I think you are conflating the TTY end of transmission time stamp with the event real time. There is still aprox a 7 minute time spread between events. We know that the 8:05 last comm time actually occurred earlier than that.
We know that the TYY timestamp is the end of the transmission process, not the actual event communicated by the crew, so the event occurred sometime prior. We had assumed the 8:12 time occurred at 8:11 (1 minute delay) but the flight recorder indicated a “little bob” at 8:09, 3 minutes prior to timestamp at end of transmission. The times are rounded of so it could be less than 3 minutes between the event and the timestamp at end of crew transmission process. Likewise, the 8:05 TTY times stamp for last comm with Cooper was not when the event occurred but the end of the crew transmission process. 8:05 was not the real time event last comm with Cooper.
(times are rounded so it could be 2-3 minutes between actual event time and end of crew transmission explaining event)
8:12 TTY = 8:09 Real Event Time (little bob flight recorder)
8:05 TTY = 8:02 Real Event Time (Last comm with Cooper)
If we make the assumption that the “little bob” was Cooper jumping.
then, where was the plane at 8:09 in real time. Seems to be either over the Lewis R or North of it.
However, the FBI notes claimed the plane was over Camp, Wa at 8:05, the flightpath shows 8:06. There is a 1 minute difference.
flight recorder is audio…flight data recorder gave speed, altitude and direction, magnetic…
flight recorders were typically on a loop since they only needed the last minutes of the flight. the audio would of been recorded over prior to landing..
Dear God, not another camping trip with Blevins……
Dear God, not another camping trip with Blevins……
Yup, and according to Tom Kaye the placard was found on private property so he needs to get permission from the owners. I don’t know what a trip to the location would do. it’s not like going to a crash site. maybe he should also stop where they believe he jumped. both places will have equal value.
I also see between Derek’s name calling Robert’s real personality is coming out whining about Bruce and my site getting right back into his old ways which I believe he said he was tired of 🙂
What I would really like to know is “precisely” how the flight path was derived by the Air Force. All I’ve seen is literally some guy from the Air Force handing the FBI a flight path and saying “here it is.” I actually have not seen word one from the Air Force saying they even used radar to come up with the flight path. Perhaps they did–that seems intuitive–yet I haven’t actually found anything from the USAF itself.
Normally this wouldn’t be a big deal in my mind. Like most of you I’d simply accept the flight path and go from there. However, 47 years on there are a few major problems that have arisen, all of which indicate the flight path is wrong. Let’s be honest, there is actually not one shred of evidence indicating that the flight path is accurate. Nothing. They haven’t found as much as a broken branch. We have nothing more than the Air Force/FBI saying it’s the flight path. That’s it.
Of course this is a controversial subject. That said, I am convinced that someone made a mistake somehow, somewhere.
On the subject of autopilot: If a jet is on autopilot would it automatically fly right down the middle of a vector? Obviously 305 did not fly right down the middle of Victor 23. According to the FBI it traveled west of it, then east of it, and so forth.
October 1 1973. (FBI P 12156)
6. A more accurate method of plotting of radar data of the NORJAK flight using a computer was utilized and a new search area was plotted. This new search area was searched with negative results.
2-1-73 (FBI p 10571)
FBI requested the Air Force radar data and calculations…
That suggests the original “FBI flightpath” came from the Air Force and the FBI wanted the data to re-evaluate. The FBI did not create it but took the flightpath from the Air Force.
FLY, how do your page numbers for the files correlate with the FBI info in the vault?
I OCR’d all the FBI files to search easier,, but since they are “almost” in perfect sequential order you can find the FBI page number bottom right and go forward or back in sequence. so, higher page number = later files..
FBI file part 11 p 1996
“ANALYSIS OF FLIGHT PATH OF AIRPLANE, UPON LEAVING SEATTLE, FLIGHT LOGS PROVIDED BY NORTHWEST AIRLINES, SEATTLE AND MINNEAPOLIS, WOULD SUGGEST THAT UNSUB IN AIRPLANE AS LATE AS TIME PLANE PASSED OVER CAMP, WASHINGTON, AT EIGHT ZERO FIVE PM. SUBSEQUENT ENTRIES REFLECT OSCILLATION
AT EIGHT TEN PM, AT WHICH TIME PLANE IN AREA APPROXIMATELY TWO TO THREE MILES SOUTHWEST BY WEST FROM LAKE MERWIN DAM, WASHINGTON. PARACHUTE EXPERTS ADVISE THAT PARACHUTES LEAVING PLANE AT THAT POINT WOULD DRIFT APPROXIMATELY TWO AND ONE HALF MILES EAST”
flight logs = 8:05 at Camp Wa.. ???
Flightpath shows Camp Wa at 8:06,, if “little bob” on recorder was Cooper jumping at 8:09 then where was the plane in real time..
The 8:09 “little bob” was in FBI file #13 p 2822..
It suggests the autopilot made an adjustment apprx 8:09.. and that is consistent with the pilots 8:12 transmission. What if that adjustment was made due do Cooper leaving the plane. If we make that assumption, then the LZ would be mostly N of Lewis R and N of L. Merwin.
Great work and valuable dialogue, guys.
Just a basic look at these documents tell me nothing is in stone. the 8:09 could be basic adjustments and they put the guess 3 miles north and 3 miles south of the center of the search area already plotted.
Simulations do not put the plane 2-3 miles south west of Lake Merwin. it’s close to where the map states. this is also the oscillation they keep saying which is Cooper on the stairs. the bump is not marked on the transcripts. that’s the whole problem. it’s like driving a van and someone opens the back door. you would feel and notice this and if they shut the door you would also notice that with a pressure change. older folks will know this from closing a door and the drapes move in the living room or bedroom…the air has nowhere to go.
Let me check some data I have. I always went by crossing the Lewis as a mark ending that leg of the flight for hitting an 8:10 plot.
Keep in mind the plane passed VOR’s that helped mark the timing…
We have to keep in mind that the takeoff time was noted in the air and on the ground as being 7:36. when plotting or flying the path it’s going to be hard to deviate from certain points on the transcripts and the time.
The plane takes off and levels at 7,000 minutes into the flight and holds that level for a short period before climbing to 10,000. the speeds are documented along with fuel flow and temps at some points. I would typically arrive west of Ed Carlson Field at around 7:59 and change. no flight was the same and varied in seconds but were close giving a average time close to the map. this is flying roughly 3 miles a minute DME. I was able to match the speed and most time frames given. I had the wind the same as well. I broke down the path in 3 legs. the first is Sea to Toledo, the second being Toledo to the Lewis river and the third being the Lewis to the Columbia. I never noted the minute marks because most of them are not correct. some are shorter and some are longer.
I arrive at the Lewis river at around 8:10 and change which is roughly 32 NM from Ed Carlson or the 7:59 mark and 12 miles north of Battleground. I would pass the east side of Battleground at around 8:13 and change (estimate) don’t have the numbers handy…it was very close to what the map shows. this happened over and over…
I found the 727 had the flight recorder in the ventral stair cavity, the Fairchild Flight Data Recorder Model F-5424 was the one that kept coming up for the 727’s of that era in searches.. Seems to be the most common but no evidence that model was in NORJAK.. other models are similar.
It could measure up to 5 parameters,, pressure altitude, indicated air speed, magnetic heading and vertical accelerations. These things do not have a timestamp, they sync with radio transmissions and use ground comms to create a timeline..
The “little bob” time at 8:09 would have been established based on ground radio transmissions. An 8:09 event is consistent with the 8:12 transmission – delayed.
Data is recorded on a magnetic foil using small servos.
If the FDR was right in the ventral cavity I wonder if the impact of the Airstairs banging back up after Cooper jumped would create a “little bob” on the foil???
This type of data recorder was viewed on a microscope table. it wasn’t really something they did to gain more evidence. it’s how this data was analyzed. the data is etched onto the foil and looking under a microscope was the best way to do it. they show a picture in the same PDF I have that you probably have.
What you would need to explain is how engineers from NWO and the military failed to notice the difference in the transcripts to the LZ. all skilled aviators.
The 8:09 issue can’t be taken serious when the expand the path 14 some miles south going by the 8:09 discovery. they also explain, as I did that the auto-pilot will make corrections due to wind and turbulence.
I am on your side when it comes to an error in timing vs the path. I just don’t believe this is it. this would of been extremely obvious to them.
Clearly, it isn’t proof of Cooper jumping at 8:09 though no other FDR marks were noted.
I am only throwing out an idea based on the assumption that the “little bob” detected on the FDR was made due to the Airstair initial retraction right after he jumped.
The 8:12 TTY crew comm about oscillations matches this 8:09 real time event. These times are rounded so 2-3 minutes for the crew to feel the oscillation then report then TTY process and timestamped makes sense.
Why the FBI bureaucracy did what they did? who knows. They didn’t solve the case, at least not publicly.
Take the 8:09 point on path +- 30 seconds then draw a box E 1.5 – 3.5 miles, that is the LZ if that mark on the FDR was from Airstairs retracting when Cooper leaving.
FDR link
Click to access Role_of_Flight_Recording_Campbell.pdf
LZ if that mark on the FDR was from Airstairs….
do you know how they claim it was the 8:09 position? the last part of 377’s comment is interesting…
I found the 727 had the flight recorder in the ventral stair cavity, the Fairchild Flight Data Recorder Model F-5424 was the one that kept coming up for the 727’s of that era in searches.. Seems to be the most common but no evidence that model was in NORJAK.. other models are similar. It could measure up to 5 parameters,, pressure altitude, indicated air speed, magnetic heading and vertical accelerations. These things do not have a timestamp, they sync with radio transmissions and use ground comms to create a timeline.
That would be radio transcripts…this was an older post by him Georger posted today along with the model of the FDR.
Actually that was my comment re-posted by G..
Since they claim 8:09 and not 8:12 they didn’t use the TTY timestamp but somehow tracked the time of transmissions to sync the data. Looking into exactly how that is done..
The fact that they claimed 8:09 suggests it is more accurate than the 8:12 TTY.. end of transmission.
It makes sense because you would get the series oscillations after the jump.
Since the 3 min difference between event and TTY is rounded, it could be less.
Timeline: Approximate – minutes clearly rounded (2-3 minutes between event and end of TTY comm process)
7:42 – TTY Crew Communication – Aft light on, means unlocked not down. Cooper struggling to get Airstairs down.
At some time during his attempt to get Airstairs down Cooper pulls the emergency Airstairs release door with placard off wall, it detaches completely. Not clear is he actually pulled the emergency release.
8:02/3 Event – Last crew communication with Cooper. “said everything is OK”
8:04 Cooper descends Airstairs, placard attached to small plastic door goes out the plane when Airstairs max opened with Cooper at end.
8:05 TTY timestamp – end of process – Crew communicates last Communication with Cooper.
8:09 Event – “Little Bob” found on Flight Data Recorder, possibly made from Airstairs retracting and hitting after Cooper jumps. FDR located in aft Airstair cavity.
8:12 TTY timestamp – end of process -Crew communication “getting some oscillations”
R99…
The times shown on the radio transcripts are GMT times (now known as Universal Times, I think) and are the most accurate times available.
R99 comments make no sense to me regarding the “little bob” noted at 8:09..
The TTY times indicate the end of the crew communication process NOT the actual event time.
I’ve read plenty of documents on how they sync radio trans with the FDR. I can’t even respond on some of the stuff you have written in the last post.
It is interesting is that the PDX wind was from ESE 8 mph at 8 PM and changed to from the S..
https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/KPDX/date/1971-11-24?req_city=Portland%20International&req_state=OR&req_statename=Oregon&reqdb.zip=97218&reqdb.magic=5&reqdb.wmo=99999
What was it near Arial… at 8 PM or the placard?
The Placard was found directly under the flight path (has a +-.5 mile error), it left the plane about 8:03. An ESE wind would be 100% consistent with that. The Placard location does NOT indicate a radically different flightpath. It may indicate a false assumption for wind direction at that time and location.. the wind direction wasn’t constant it was shifting.
The stairs work by gravity. they drop a certain degree. no oscillations (multiple ones) were reported before the 8:10 time frame or after the jump. the oscillation occurred when Cooper was on the stairs and not after he left them. that would be the bump causing pressure to rush into the plane.
In order to find information on the FDR they rely heavily on the radio transcripts to sync them to the data. radio transmissions are extremely accurate. moving any kind of time frame with these transmissions will cause failure in any results one is trying to present.
The 302’s are a great thing to have. they give somewhat of a timeline themselves but are not 100% accurate. information can get skewed. Blevins has been using information from a local sheriff that was at a briefing during the search and appears to have written things down wrong. nowhere in the witness statements do they say the bomb was wrapped in red tape. it could of been Manning as well stating it wrong. you must go by what the witness stated and question anything beyond that. so how was Roberts witness stating the samething the sheriff said? the actual witnesses tell a different story.
I’m guessing a lot of confusion and scrambling was going on trying to get a location of where Cooper jumped. it appears they were off by one minute if you even believe they found the pressure bump on the FDR. it’s only mentioned one time which is never good if this is what they believed. we should be reading about this throughout the 302’s. 8:09 doesn’t match the radio transmission. it’s also odd how they present the occurrence. they extend the search area 3 miles north which makes sense based on that information but turn around and extend it to the Columbia from the center of the original jump point which adds another 14 miles to the possible location of the jump. it’s all over the board from get go. can I come to a conclusion that Cooper went into the river and died and the money wound up on Tbar as a strong possibility based on the information given? absolutely not.
It sounds like they believed where Cooper jumped. it was a educated guess based on what they had. they have admitted to not knowing exactly where he jumped. that’s why we are here today….
I agree with most of that but the Airstair light goes one when unlocked.. not dropped, the emergency release unlocks only,, but we don’t know if he actually pulled it. He did remove the emergency access door with the placard.
and the TTY timestamp does not indicate the time the crew felt the series of oscillation. It just doesn’t indicate that. It indicates the end the transmission process when the crew makes the statement. That is not the same as the actual event. We have a difference of 3 minutes and that is rounded off, it could be 2-3 minutes, the 8:12 TTY crew report of an 8:09 event is completely compatible. TTY timestamps are accurate (rounded) they just don’t indicate the real event time the crew is discussing, they indicate the end of crew transmission process, completely different.
There was a mark noted on the FDR foil at 8:09, it is the only one reported, marks are made by servos and with the FDR in the Airstair cavity any jarring impact could create such a mark. That may have been the Airstairs retracting hard after Cooper jumped. It isn’t a fact but it is a plausible theory. It moves the LZ a few miles N.. Where did the FBI search N of Lewis/Merwin? Didn’t they search some on that side?
This thing is almost 50 years old the FBI files are riddled with errors, conflicts and missing info, we need some new ideas here.
New ideas are being presented on the Dave Brown forum. You just ignore them for some reason. You are better.
I am processing all of the new information. It is quite revealing.
My current understanding is that the placard was found a mile or so west of the FBI’s suggested flight path, which means the FBI got it wrong. Thus, the plane was several miles to the west, which could have meant that it was flying the Malay-Canby Intersect, as proposed by Robert Nicholson.
Further, as Robert N. has noted, Flight 305, if flying the M-C intersect route, would have passed by Tina Bar at approximately 8:13 pm, which is the stated time of Cooper’s departure, as stated by Bill Rataczak. Others dispute that, and current investigations are suggesting an earlier exit, perhaps 8:09, but that is the status of this issue at this time as I know it.
Flightpath over TBAR is old news.
Placard location is consistent with the slight error for the FBI flightpath and consistent with v-23, the wind at that location and time is an assumption, not a data point. PDX showed winds at ESE at 8 PM. We don’t know the wind speed and direction exactly at the time and location the placard left the plane.
Placard location doesn’t suggest a radically different flightpath.
Cooper’s initial demand was for Airstairs to be lowered in flight, not down on takeoff. The Airstairs down on takeoff came later from the negotiation with the crew, they were trying to get Tina off the plane so they could attempt an escape.
Cooper did not initially demand Airstairs down on takeoff. It is clear in the crew to ground discussions though some FBI summaries claim it in error.
Here’s my new idea in the form of The 8:12 Arc Theory.
https://thecoopercase.com/pages/the-8-12-arc-theory
radio transmissions are not TTY….
getting Tina off the plane had nothing to do with the stairs..Cooper wanted them down on takeoff. doesn’t matter when he said it.
The crew has a ladder in the cockpit to escape. he didn’t want to leave Tina behind and couldn’t get her to the front to make it happen.
Sure it does, everyone claims he wanted them down on takeoff, his initial demand was lowered in flight. That is clear. The discussion of lowered on takeoff came up later while the crew was trying to get Tina off the plane. WE actually don’t know if Cooper or the crew brought up how or why,, but it is important because the two claims are Cooper knew the plane could take off with Airstairs down and Cooper wanted to jump asap are based on the false assumption that Cooper initially wanted the Airstairs down. He didn’t.
We just don’t have all the details of the conversation between the crew and Cooper or via the stews.
Piecing together the available info..
Cooper initially demanded Airstairs to be lowered in flight by Tina.
The crew had an escape plan. They decided not to go with Tina still on the plane.
The crew wanted Tina off so they could attempt an escape.
They tried to explain to Cooper how to lower Airstairs himself in flight, he didn’t go for that.
Lowering the Airstairs in on take off was brought up up as an alternative during negotiations. (If Cooper wanted to jump ASAP and had some inside Airstair knowledge, he would have INITIALLY demanded Airstairs down on take off, he didn’t)
They settled on Tina staying and showing Cooper how to work the Airstairs.
That doesn’t indicate Cooper knew the plane could takeoff with Airstairs down nor that he wanted to jump ASAP. He thought the crew controlled the Airstairs and had to be shown how to operate them. He had aviation knowledge but not specific 727 Airstair knowledge.
The placard is an issue. I’m wondering how it was able to be visible for so long if it stayed in one place and never moved. a forest tends to cover things on the ground when seasons change and winds moving things around. it stayed in one position for 7 years.
according to Eric the path can only move in his defense? I don’t believe the path could be verified with a laser as perfect. it’s going to be off. does anyone have the actual winds from area’s such as Kelso, Toutle, Pigeon Springs. weather underground doesn’t show these, it reverts you to Portland miles away when you hit history for any of those area’s. we are all basing things off a path that isn’t exactly where it was that evening. then we have all the traffic controllers falling a sleep at the radar.
Perhaps Blevins has a good idea without realizing it. I would be interested in seeing what the area looks like on the ground.
Yes, the placard is important, but its location doesn’t suggest a radically different flightpath. It is consistent with v-23 and the half mile error in the FBI flightpath. It was found E of v-23 centre line.
Winds can vary greatly in short distances, we don’t know the speed or direction at that exact location and time.
I still maintain that the plastic emergency access door the placard was attached to is still out there.. and IMO it most likely went out of the plane when Cooper went to the bottom of the Airstairs approx 8:04 real time. How long would Cooper wait at the end before jumping? 5 minutes = 8:09.
8;04 real time would be confirmed on the real time radio transcripts. that thing all pilots use talking with the tower….it would be reported as the time in real time on the radio transcripts…not the TTY.
It is an estimation based on location, events and flightpath.
The “little bob” was written of as turbulence, it might have been but there was only one “little bob” that registered you’d expect more than one if it was turbulence. It was 8:09 which matches the 8:12 TTY delayed report by crew. It is possible only one turbulent hit was recorded and it happened to match the crew TTY. I do find it odd that at the same time the crew was feeling oscillations that “little bob” was written off as turbulence. Oscillations and turbulence at the same time?? Was the crew feeling turbulence? seems conflicting
The placard was found b4 the money was found. Not enough time to get buried in new foliage.
Little Bobs and Big Bobs vs Turbulencia:
Well it did not take long. Claimers who want to link Little Bob 8:09 with Cooper bailing should take note of the ARCHIVE OF KNOWELDGE which conceals several reports of TURBULENCIA occurring ~8:03 – ~8:10 REPORTED BY A NUMBER OF PEOPLE INCLUDING PILOTS … Scott and Rataczak, … re-
i …3) The information about turbulence being the reason Scott tried to contact Cooper on the PA (for the apparent 2005 exchange) is new. I’ve never heard turbulence being the reason before. In fact, this turbulence thing is weird. We were told about a “curtsy” or adjustment of trim needed. We all thought this was caused by the stairs. But now we’re hearing about air turbulence as the reason Scott wanted Cooper contacted at 8:05. Cooper has requested the plane be ‘slowed and stabilized’, Scott is trying to comply and decides to contact Cooper … You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
ii……weve known about this hack mark in the FDR tape for years. The channel was altitude. There was never anything to attribute it to Cooper jumping. The plane was in turbulence at the time. That is in all of the interviews.
iii…She joined Scott and the co-pilot in the cockpit. Later, the plane ran into turbulence. testimony
iv…Data used were: Aircraft position from USAF radar data from McChord AFB furnished by Captain REDACTED …
Time correlation from the above USAF radar information and from the NWA communications network tape recording. … Airplane airspeed and altitude from the airplane’s flight recorder. No timing data from the FDR. Irrelevant. Periods of reported turbulence were noted.
v…here’s the exact text that talks about the data used. I just realized it really emphasized that military radar was used. (Although ARTCCs can be joint military/FAA, I think now the radar used for the flight path reallly was McChord, not ARTCC, although ARTCC seemed to track it…which probably says McChord also had no range difficulties tracking 305)
page 272:
Aircraft position from USAF radar data from McChord AFB furnished by Captain REDACTED
…
Time correlation from the above USAF radar information and from the NWA communications network tape recording.
…
Airplane airspeed and altitude from the airplane’s flight recorder.
Tom Kaye: See, the flight recorder data used was apparently just airspeed and altitude? So I guess that resolves my question of how the data was merged. Now that I remember, my question of “merging” was before Ckret released these pages. So these pages resolved my question of how data was “merged”. There was no merging of data. Data was combined, but not modified based on multiple sources of info.
It also points out that the radar data is first-order. No big reason to search for the flight recorder data until you get radar data.
The “little bob” was written of as turbulence, it might have been but there was only one “little bob” that registered you’d expect more than one if it was turbulence. It was 8:09 which matches the 8:12 TTY delayed report by crew. It is possible only one turbulent hit was recorded and it happened to match the crew TTY. I do find it odd that at the same time the crew was feeling oscillations that “little bob” was written off as turbulence. Oscillations and turbulence at the same time?? Was the crew feeling turbulence? seems conflicting
If the “little bob” was a single turbulent event it occurred at the same time the crew was feeling oscillations.. doesn’t make sense.
Can anyone explain in detail the exact nature of SNOWMMAN’S re-entry into the Cooper discussion, and then his sudden and bizarre exit? WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?
I’ve been wondering, too. One thing is clear. Snowmman’s re-emergence a few months ago was closely tied to assisting Sheridan Peterson’s book into print. Snow put a LOT of time and energy into that project.
As for his comings and goings, Sigh. Snow is well-named. Frosty-the-Snowmman didn’t stick around forever, either.
I trust that Snow is okay. I would assume that if he was dealing with health issues and such, 377 would let us know.
Personally, I don’t believe snow cared very much for Eric. his voice was loud and clear on this matter. he seems protective with Sheridan IMHO.
I don’t care much for Snow either. His BS way of dealing with me was completely unnecessary. Frankly it was a territorial pissing match in his mind. In other words, “I mentioned Sheridan first.”
He was not protective of Sheridan. He was attempting to curry favor with him. We see where that got him.
He’s a great researcher, but toxic.
I read some of the postings from Snowman to Eric Ulis and it was clear to me that he was calling the man out for his behavior. The behavior of Eric Ulis strikes me as very narcissistic, as in “I’m better than you, I know more than you, you’re wrong, I’m right.” Ulis clearly does not handle criticism well. It looked to me like Snowman was run off. It turns me off some from that forum.
Ah, RichG, I suggest – and hope – you read more at the DB Cooper Forum and elsewhere. Snowmman, for all of his wonderful attributes, can be unrelentingly nasty. I have personally experienced both sides of that coin.
I don’t think anyone could run off Snowmman. his last login was April,1, 2019. I’m sure he will chime in when the topic fits..
I dont think so. From what I’ve seen, Ulis handles himself professionally. Snowmman has always been temperamental and very unpredictable. Good researcher though.
You want narcissism, try arguing with Georger. Smartest guy in the room and if you don’t believe it, just ask him.
I’ve started a little side project called the DB Cooper Channel on YouTube.
On a daily basis (M-F) I’ll be creating and posting a short 4-5 minute video called the Daily DB Cooper Bite. Each episode will discuss my theory regarding some aspect of the NORJAK case.
The first video was just posted and can be viewed at:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCewfNi-lPOshvd9t55NXbbA
Cheers!
Eric
I liked it, Eric! Interesting topic, and you have an amazing imagination!!! Fascinating. Good reckoning, too, on the 20s.
BTW: Please get a camera stand so that it doesn’t shake!!!!! TY.
I’ve heard that the shaky camera sucked from a few people. It will be fixed starting tomorrow. It’s a good thing I’m not in Hollywood.
The second episode of my Daily DB Cooper Bite is now up and viewable at
Bruce…shaky camera issue solved.
I thought he wanted to jump ASAP but it doesn’t make sense..
1.) His initial demand according to transcripts was “aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff” this is irrefutable. He wanted Tina to operate the stairs. The crew had an escape plan but couldn’t go with Tina on the plane. The aft stairs down on takeoff came up later during negotiations with the crew to get Tina off the plane. Why is this important – if he initially demanded stairs down on takeoff that indicates a jump ASAP. He didn’t so it doesn’t. It is a false premise.
2.) He wasn’t dressed for PNW climate.
3.) Jumping close the scene of the crime would be risky.
4.) Cooper initially demanded to go to Mexico nonstop, he believed it was within range. It makes no sense to make a demand that one knew was unachievable and would be rejected by pilots. He did not want the plane to land in the US.
5.) US/American currency suggests and international element.
Conclusion, Cooper initially wanted to jump south of the US border. When the plane was to land in US, he decided to jump where he did. That was Plan B.
I just posted the third episode of the Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the money find.
Not true,,,
There are means by which the money could get to TBAR and maintain the original flightpath/LZ..
1.) The money may have been discarded later..
2.) There was a massive bank erosion remediation program depositing 200,000 yards of dredged material right across and upstream of TBAR on Sauvie Island in 1976/77. It was barged up the Columbia and dumped on Sauvie. Scenario, Cooper lost the/some money into Lewis/Merwin (near FBI LZ) it flowed down to the Columbia.. was dredged and barged up to Sauvie… persistent erosion caused it to come loose and get washed up on TBAR across the river in the late 70’s. Everyone seems to have missed this massive dredge event.
There are probably others.
Good post, EU.
Gypsy23, thanks for the kind words.
Yes, Eric is a pro. Remember, 3 money packets were found on top of each other. Could NOT be delivered by natural means under any circumstances. The only viable explanation is an intentional plant, by the perp.
Not necessarily,, the three packets (of 100) were likely parts of 1 rubber banded (randomized) bundle.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=f5QSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w_YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1886,5625&dq=hijack+columbia+river
“It’s all from one bundle” and …”Cooper had been given “several” bundles of money”…he declined to say how many bundles. then it says “big bundles of money wrapped in a package six inches high, one foot across and about 1-1/2 feet long.”
Dont think so, FLY. Packets were found loosely constructed, not consistent with an independent band holding multiple packets. No other packets found anywhere at TB. Go with physical evidence and facts. Any attempt to reconstruct the scene, or, to create additional facts will only further confuse the case. Cooper planted.
Nope, fragments of rubber bands were found which crumbled to the touch, there were 3 independent “packets” of 100. Those rubber band frags may have held the bundle together. They were in randomized rubber banded bundles (of packets) when given to Cooper, not individual 100 packets (x 100 bills). That is the real evidence.. The packets would have separated when the rubber bands holding the bundle together deteriorated. Otherwise, Cooper or somebody would have had to separate those exact TBAR packets after Cooper received the money and before they were deposited. Possible, but very unlikely.
I wouldn’t rule out a plant as a possibility though I think extremely remote. I believe the money likely arrived as one bundle of 3 packets of 100 bills.. the money also may have been discarded not planted.
The point is there are many means by which the money could get to TBAR, just because we don’t know isn’t evidence that it was a plant. That isn’t using logic, it is confirmation bias.
FLY: your operative words, “MAY HAVE.” If you insert these words into any investigation, it may have been the space aliens who intervened, or, may have been Larry Carr’s theory that the money snagged on an upriver bound freighter and mysteriously dropped at TB. Sorry, I may have been a jerk, but I think EU has it correct.
Marla,
Find me the evidence for exact location of the rubber bands on the TBAR packets, it doesn’t exist. Lots of vague descriptions of fragments found. Even Kaye couldn’t find it.
Those packets were in randomized bundles when given to Cooper. So, for them to be separate either somebody pulled apart a bundle or they landed as one bundle and separated as the rubber bands deteriorated. It isn’t Aliens, it is facts plus logic and reason.
It is more likely the money landed as one bundle than in 3 separate packets. The FBI evidence doesn’t confirm they landed as 3 separate packets.
Claiming a plant is a great leap in logic.. not only is there no evidence it ascribes motive. Speculation has a place but it needs to be kept in context.
BTW, I am working several different theories for TBAR.. one is that the money was discarded in the late 70’s, but not planted. Another, it was from dumped spoils eroded loose across on Sauvie and pushed up on TBAR.
Good points, all.
Bickering at home? you have been in trouble since it opened back up again. you and Derek. he was the spammer, and you with the gossiping again. then jumpers jumping on you guys….you are not suppose to be here anyway, so talking about rules is funny…
Lets be honest? plenty of evidence. the crew stated they flew MOST of Washington on autopilot, not all…MOST of the flight path from Seattle is basically a straight line. two radar’s systems were monitoring the flight, along with 3 planes. two couldn’t fly slow enough to be of much value. the flight data recorder gives the heading, speed and altitude. then you have the air traffic controllers from Portland stating the system was very accurate and they were very close to 305 while in the area they believe Cooper jumped. the crew and tower agreed V23 was the best route. it’s right on the transcripts?
Just because they don’t explain enough to satisfy everyone doesn’t mean the Air Force pulled out some crayons and told one of there kids how to draw on a map. testimony from all 3 pilots who were actually there contradict any deviation of the flight. is it perfect, doubtful. is it 8-12 miles off, no. you would of had planes in danger all over the place with inaccurate radar returns. they claim they were east of V23 for most of the way. the controller in Portland concur’s with that statement.
“Redacted Northwest Flight Dispatch Center, called twice on the afternoon of November 28, 1971. the first time he advised that he had checked possible information and believed that a more accurate pin-pointing of the possible place of decent of the hijacker would be 3 statue miles east northeast of La Center on a bearing of 080 degree’s, true.
He called back subsequently and said that he had talked to the man who was working the radar at Portland which was very accurate since it was very close to the plane at the time and determined that the plane was one to two miles east of the center of a particular fly-way. he said for this reason we might consider moving the center of the circle described above one or two miles due east. ”
If we move the flight path these statements are wrong. the pilots flying the plane and the radar at Portland?
YUP, it is overwhelming.
The TBAR find doesn’t move the flightpath, (several logical fallacies at work here) the Placard location was E of the centre of V-23 within the Air Force path error. The wind was ESE at 8PM in Portland,, what was it for the Placard?
The question is when did he actually jump..
One documents states Seattle (Seatac) radar control tower has exact tape recording of subject flight with exact times.
Another document states maps from Sage were sent to Sacramento in reference to the SR-71 flying over the flight path.
Robert, you were told repeatedly not to post here…..
Blevins, please just go camping for a year…….and leave us alone…
Today’s Daily DB Cooper Bite
Stupendous work, EU. You need your own TV show. Keep going.
Thanks Gypsy!
Everything I’ve read says that the money ended up there due to dredging. The money being discarded at a later point is interesting.
Today’s episode of the Daily DB Cooper Bite is now up. Today I start getting into the flight path.
Logical fallacy,, not finding anything isn’t evidence that it didn’t happen.
You don’t know the wind direction and effect at the Placard location. Winds were shifting from E ESE and S nearby around 8 PM Nov 24/71. Your premise is wrong and your conclusion that the location is impossible therefore the flightpath is wrong is completely incorrect.
You have built a strawman argument (placard) on weak speculation/false assumptions and denial of overwhelming evidence. Sorry, but the Placard find is consistent with the FBI/Air Force flightpath. It was E of v-23 Centreline.
To posted the following last night on my forum…
All,
I was having dinner with my science friend Bruce the other night and he asked about Cooper. I told him there was a big discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate. Bruce is retired from JPL, created the first clear air turbulence instrument and was on the team that discovered the ozone hole. He described the boundary layer over land (as opposed to water) as going from 0-3000 feet or so and it is in this layer that the winds typically are in a different direction from winds aloft. He said the way to answer the question is get the radiosonde data from those dates in that area and it would show the winds from ground to 12K+ feet or so. It turns out that the data is tricky to get and condense into readable form so I had to bribe him with a steak dinner and now we have the data!
The two closest locations were Salem just south of Portland and Quillayute Bruce said was just west of Seattle. They launch twice a day at 5pm and 5am so that is the data we have. I had him pull a second random day Nov 11 for comparison and you can see that the winds then were actually east near the ground. Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated. Now you can do a proper analysis. 🙂
Tom Kaye
without fully checking leads or evidence one can end up manufacturing evidence..nothing what so ever has been verified with how the money got on Tbar. using it to support something as fact will fail. same for the placard. it’s been out there for 7 years..
The placard and money find are not manufactured evidence. They are real. They tell a story. They do not have an agenda. They cannot lie or be wrong. They are fact.
Our challenge is to read the tea leaves properly.
The problem for those who want to now argue that the wind was actually from some other direction are going to run into is the same problem that they’re having right now explaining the official “winds were from the SW” narrative. That is to say, if someone could prove, for example, that the winds were blowing from the east that night, in that spot, for some strange reason, I’m going to reverse engineer the numbers and prove that the jet was flying 10 miles east of the placard find. And, someone is now going to have to explain how the FBI got the flight path wrong, albeit in the opposite direction.
The problem with the argument being presented by some advocating the FBI flight path is that there is no room for any wind at all. The only way the placard ends up where it ends up–if the FBI flight path is accurate–is if there was NO wind that night. Well, I ain’t buying it. In fact, that is manufactured evidence.
False choice..
Seattle and Portland showed winds from ESE and around 9-10 mph, the placard would drift virtually back along the flightpath. An ESE wind would nail it.
But we don’t know the actual winds up to 10,000 ft at the Placard location.
Then why was the FBI search area northeast of the flight path? Because the winds were blowing from the east-southeast?
Come on now. Rhetoric is worthless.
The placard is a flimsy piece of skinny material. Drop it off a ten-story building and it will flutter down in any direction, missing a direct drop zone by dozens of feet. Drop it from the back of a 200 mph jet at 10K feet and it could flutter down a mile or two from its direct drop zone. Factor in “winds aloft” and through multiple “layers of winds aloft,” and it could flutter down miles from its direct drop zone. Common sense, folks. The placard was found by hunters at the south end of Silver Lake, WA. Really, not all that far off of V23.
For all we know the thing could of shot up a couple hundred feet. zig zaging and cutting through the air in different directions. actually, it was found under V23, just not on the centerline. did it land in the tree’s for a year or two before dropping to the ground. did it blow around on top of the treeline and on the ground. nobody knows. could of spiraled down..lots of variables just like the rest of the case. airways are 8 miles wide…
While talking with Tom Kaye, he suggested that the placard could of spiraled. I decided to try the theory and used a lift taking me up to 40 feet. I just let the placard drift and then put a spin on it. I did 5 tests with the same results.
so now we debate on two sites…
I never once said the placard or money find was manufactured. you take things out of context like Blevins does. my point is, you can’t use the money location as fact when we don’t know how it got there. the placard came out of the plane. winds are unpredictable, especially at different levels. based on that and the fact of not knowing if the card is in it’s original location makes it impossible to use as facts with anything else. if you show me a GPS record of you going to the store. I can’t claim you went a different way. can I?
If the money arrived from a different location be it natural means or even the dredge. it does support a different flight path. the plane was in the area and crossed the river by records.
Since the placard has been laying in the woods for 7 years it’s kind of hard to use as fact for any path IMO. too many variables at play.
Both are valuable evidence, no doubt. I just don’t see how they can support anything when nothing can be confirmed on either. using this information to guide a theory is manufacturing evidence since no facts can back them up. you need facts to help build the theory.
If I found a timing error in the flight path that was critical. I wouldn’t stop there and claim the map is wrong. I would contact someone who has a better simulator, as well as knowledge to look into the error further. I did find there is more than 7 minutes between the Lewis and the Columbia but it doesn’t appear to affect anything until further evidence suggests otherwise.
I’ve spoken with people in the aviation field in reference to the card and have been laughed at to an extent for trying to place the wind in one location from decades ago. they go further to add that winds are unpredictable at anytime or place and at different levels. I’m out trying to find answers, not conclusions based on where it was found..I did tell them the wind direction and they still claim the mentioned above.
I reached out to 377 to ask him about wind shift while descending. He stated that occasionally there is a shift but that in the winter months the southerly winds are quite consistent. In other words, they change little at different altitudes.
Also, just because the wind may be swirling around at ground level does not mean that this is the case above the obstruction level (buildings, trees, terrain, etc.). Furthermore, when comparing winds at PDX to the placard find location, consider that they’re about 35 miles apart and that PDX is at an elevation of 30 feet, whereas the placard was found at an elevation of over 1300 feet.
Once again. lots of variables to consider. I believe a front was passing through or in the area. it was raining and cold. not a typical jump day for the average skydiver who does this in the daytime.
Keep in mind when looking at weather underground they are ground winds, not aloft.
That need becomes especially acute when the distance extends from 50 or 100 miles to 500 nm or more. A more comprehensive forecast becomes essential when the trip exceeds known parameters, ranging from across town or state to across a continent.
That’s because individual weather fronts are usually confined to a comparatively small area. Extend your reach to 1,000 nm, and you may fly through several systems with winds blowing in different directions. Flight planning over long distances requires a careful analysis of winds aloft.
Here you can view winds in real time. you can and zoom to any area…
http://hint.fm/wind/
The placard was found right under the FBI flight path E of V-23 centreline. The original flightpath had a 1 mile plotting error,, that puts the plane W of the Placard location. We don’t know the winds at that location at that time but there is nothing inconsistent OR IMPOSSIBLE here.
FBI p 10800
2/7/73
The first search area was calculated using a system of plotting known as (i.e. Geographical Reference) which has a plotting error of plus or minus one mile. A new plotting system using a computer generated latitude and longitude has an error of plus or minus 1/2 mile. Using the new system, Northwest Orient Airlines______ plotted a new course for the Norjak airplane and new search area based on the new course. The new search area is partially outside the first area.”
If a plane is flying south and plotted on a map. the error would be one mile north and south and .5 miles east and west.
What are you referring to,, the original GEOREFS system error is both x and y axis.
That means 1 mile each way, in 1973 with a new plotting system they got it to within .5 mile error.
Let me say that it’s determined by ,5 miles gap using the radar. +1 minute on communication tolerance.
.5 mile tolerance on the radar…correction for above.
plus or minus…it didn’t type out correctly.
Plus or minus the POSSIBLE communication tolerance would be 1 minute.
The radar tolerance would be .5 around the board. the further you get from the radar the tolerance increases. I’m betting the radar was extremely accurate for the area in question where Cooper jumped if you are going by the radar alone. they were very close to PDX.
FLY you continue to state things that aren’t accurate and are based upon nothing of substance.
The tolerance was +- 0.5 miles. This means the placard was found SOUTHWEST of the FBI’s flight path even building in the tolerance number. Period.
Everything states that the prevailing winds were from the southwest. Moreover, the FBI used an average number of 215 degrees. This is why the FBI’s search area is 1NM – 4NM NORTHEAST of their flight path.
In order for the FBI flight path to be accurate, and the placard find spot to also be accurate, there would have to be NO WIND AT ALL. Is this what you’re telling everyone here that you believe? If so, how do you arrive at that assumption?
I would respect your argument a lot more if you attempted to argue that the Hicks’ family identified the wrong placard find spot. Or, some guy found the placard in the woods, picked it up and walked 8 miles with it before discarding it on the ground again. Or, frankly, if you tried to argue that the placard found was not from 305 after all.
Arguing that the placard was found east of the V23 center line means nothing. It’s like me stating that it was found east of I-5. What the hell does this matter? The only thing that matters, and is being debated here, is where the placard was found in relation to the FBI’s FLIGHT PATH (tolerances included). That’s it.
May I suggest you figure out what conditions have to be met in order for both the FBI flight path and placard find spot to be accurate? If you approach it in this manner you will arrive at the NO WIND scenario I mentioned above. Given that, I ask once again: Is this what you’re telling all of us here that you believe? If so, where do you find the weather data to support this argument?
bull . . .
You haven’t proven that the Placard location is IMPOSSIBLE, what you have done is patched together some assumptions to claim something you can’t know and from that created another premise to support another conclusion. The over reach and logic is spinning too far out of the bounds for me to waste any more time on it.
We don’t have all the accurate information to figure this out to the degree needed..
Tell me exactly where the plane was.
Tell me exactly what the winds were all the way down at that location.
Tell me exactly where the placard landed. Not where claimed many years later, maybe a guess/assumption.
If you don’t have that info you don’t have a conclusion of IMPOSSIBLE. Your claim is utter nonsense. IMO of course. The Placard find is within the variability of the known inputs. PERIOD
Shutter brought up the argument that the placard could have moved over the course of 7 years in the woods. This is a fair point and a legitimate argument.
That said, I do not believe that the placard would migrate much at all once on the forest floor. With this in mind, I can easily place a similar placard in the woods and watch it for a year or so.
Finally, Major Dawson–the guy at McChord Air Force Base responsible for coordinating the F-106 chase plane effort–stated that the jet flew in a straight path from Toledo to Portland, thereby crossing the Columbia River west of Vancouver. Does anyone have any thoughts about this comment? Why would he say this given that it was his Air Force that crafted the flight path?
Eric, I don’t think anyone is saying Hicks is wrong. how can you determine this through disagreements?
The question would be whether or not that is the location since 1971. what gives anyone indication it’s been there without moving or being it’s original location. what proof. estimated winds?
Blevins is going out there so we will have an idea what the ground looks like. it’s hard to believe but not impossible something so light would stay stationary in the elements. no wind storms, nothing that could move a one ounce card? no proof it spent time in the tree’s since it can cut right through the forest? 7 years is a long time.
Dawson also claims Cooper wanted 3 chutes so he’s questionable in his statements. claims the dummy chute wasn’t marked. he speaks as if it was known that evening the chute was bad. the statements were made in 1980 after the money was found.
Indeed, I think the Hicks family is correct about the location.
I can’t say I’ve ever been in the forest and experienced wind at ground level. After all, the trees act as a barrier. I’ve certainly seen the tops of trees blowing. With this in mind I’m surmising that the placard would not have migrated much over the seven year period while on the ground.
Moreover, I am going to hazard a guess that if it did migrate it was actually to the east creating even more of a dilemma for the FBI flight path. Why to the east? Because that’s the flow of the jet stream and the direction that air masses generally move.
Finally, given R99’s calculations regarding the placard free-fall it strikes me as too coincidental that according to his figures the placard separated from the jet at a point very near a straight line between Maylay and Canby.
These are the things I have considered regarding the placard. If the placard had been found several miles east of the FBI flight path I’d be saying that this supports the veracity of the FBI flight path. However, it was not.
I found the Dawson comment about the dummy reserve not being marked very interesting because I have often wondered about this point. Frankly, I have been unable to verify that it was marked. Also, I am having a difficult time understanding how everyone, Linn Emrick included, would have missed a big X on the dummy.
If it actually wasn’t marked with an X, this lends credibility to Dawson.
I’ve spent half my life in the woods. we went camping every weekend in Ohio since I was a kid. have done a lot of camping here as well. the wind gets through the tree’s. especially if they are heavy winds. winds affect the tree’s, landscape as well as the soil. we had what was called a permanent spot on the outskirts of Lancaster called Memory Lanes. we were in heavy woods all around the entire campsite which was pretty big with a lake in the center. probably 75-100 camp slots. many nights of heavy rain and wind. in the morning the lawn chairs were blown around. campfire ashes gone. then the trusty smoke following you around the fire. plenty of wind get through. this was out in the country with roads miles apart. nothing but farmland and woods.
on certain days, sure. no wind at all. just like anywhere else. to say a forest isn’t capable of winds is a myth IMO.
The card could very well be in it’s original location. the winds that even are just as questionable. I’m not assuming anything. I’m looking for answers and awaiting R99’s reply to Tom’s findings. these are things I’m looking for. not assumptions, or estimates. facts are what I like.
OK, Johjah!
I read Georger’s comments. He has no suspect, so I assume no agenda. I see a lot of people who think they know more than the FBI. Prove me wrong. They have released 10 percent of their files.
Daily DB Cooper Bite – April 15, 2019. I discuss the Dredge Theory and FBI Flight Path.
When someone tells you not to post on a certain forum you should ALWAYS respect that persons wishes and stop claiming censorship against YOU Robert Blevins who was asked not to post here.
Yes, the statistics are horrific of run away lawn chairs moving some 10 feet from it’s original location. the death toll was high and I’m sorry for the events I might of done by allowing this to happen. even though we had no idea of the coming rain. not to mention dogs that were killed in it’s path, and widows broken. it was a risk we had to take. please understand..
This was a family event. it’s not a solitary event where some feel comfortable in there little safe space away from people. something you can’t seem to grasp. I’m sorry we couldn’t follow your rules (98-79)moving two trailers (ours and grandparents) deeper into the woods with no roads.
I wonder how long you would tolerate someone intruding on your forum? you have Dropzone to post the ridiculous notions the bomb was wrapped in red tape because some Sheriff wrote it down wrong or even Manning was mistaken and yet you still can’t survive without drama.
READ the witness statements. says nothing about the bomb being “wrapped in red tape” that’s the truth here…
🙂
Edit: time frame was from 1968-1979.
While you are trying to be experienced with camping and all. you do realize that promoting anything with your “business” calls for liability insurance. not wavers. today’s world is full of people waiting for a law suit. oops, look who I’m talking to about that 🙂 I would hate to have to inform the city that you are recklessly taking people into possible dangerous situations and possibly going onto private property without permission. that’s according to Carroll Hicks. 36% of forestland is private! Hicks provided that information to Tom Kaye.
Shutter (from Florida :))
How is it the witness statement matched the incorrect statement of the bombs description. sounds like someone is not telling the TRUTH. no chance of her seeing that video, right or you showing it to her. how would two identical stories that are wrong, be right?
You also dodged the post about background checks on NWO employee’s. Ralph was wrong
saying they didn’t. perhaps Portland didn’t. he wasn’t in charge at Seattle. it’s inaccurate just like the description of the bomb by the Manning or the Sheriff.
It’s ridiculous to make a fake bomb out of rolls of quarters. too heavy and flimsy. easier to just use wood dowels. solid and light. plus, it would be hundreds of dollars that extremely poor purser could afford!
Major Dawson said 3 chutes were given to Cooper. do we change that like the description of the bomb? he was on duty and involved. the Sheriff was involved in the search. both wrong, yes?
I await your response truth seeker 🙂
The Placard…
The placard.. I did some work on that placard a while ago..
It was found basically under the FBI flight path plotted points E of v-23 centre line. Within the variability.
It is from a small plastic door for access to an emergency release which was an option on 727’s. Right of the main airstair control panel door.
When accessed that small access door disconnects completely.
The emergency airstair system releases the upper locks and the airstairs free fall. (if on ground)
The placard was plastic or vinyl and screwed or riveted to the small plastic door. You can see the rivet/screw holes and tear away.. (maybe 5 screws/rivets)
The found placard had separated from the access door.
The emergency door pulls completely off the wall to access the airstair emergency release.
Speculation,, Cooper was having trouble getting the airstairs down using the normal operation lever (shown to him by Tina), behind the hinged airstair control door there is a button on top to press while moving a lever. He likely then tried the emergency release. A small door to the right of the main panel, he pulled the door off drooped it and it fell out of the plane WHEN COOPER WENT DOWN THE STAIRS. The Placard separated from the plastic door after exiting the plane, that may have been in the air or on the ground. That small plastic door may still be still out there in the woods.
That placard came off the plane attached to a small rigid plastic door. There is probably two finger pull holes in the door and it is probably about 8″ x 8″.
I don’t go to DropZone, but I read at Shutter’s site. Of the three competing DBC sites, Shutter has the most developed site, but Bruce’s site offers wide-growing dialogue and behind the scenes information. DropZone is dead except for a few persons who are expelled from the other sites. The “DeadEnd Zone.” Suggestion: Bruce might consider starting a new DBC thread. Just sayin.
Yes, on new thread. EU is quite the character and celebrity now. He should start appearing in a black suit and tie and hold a briefcase on his lap. Lol!!
Yes, on new thread, Bruce. EU: get a black suit and tie, with briefcase on lap. Great job!!
Dropzone isn’t bad. it just needs a moderator. Derek is going haywire on there. he posting under different names and posting the same pics over and over. he shows a blurry pic trying to pass if off as Cooper at Portland..plus, who ever the blurry guy is on the pic is walking to the terminal lol…
DB Cooper is not blurry, Bigfoot is blurry.
The Dropzone page is dominated by Derek Godsey and Robert Blevins, the Cooper Forum page is dominated by EU. This site here seems more open to different ideas but I still have to go to three different places just to learn about the case.
This is typical with people who have suspects. all 3 firmly believe they have Cooper. all 3 are right, but how can that be. that’s not including Rackstraw being Cooper, or Weber, and Reca as well. I love the “you don’t know what we know” routine 🙂
And Derek lol. shows a pic trying to get people to believe it’s Cooper getting on the plane in Portland. then, all the super double secret documents and photo’s he has 🙂
I sympathize!
Your Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC’s familiarity with the 727 and an apparent Boeing connection.
What is the source for the wind data? The FBI files suggest it was an averaged estimate based on Portland and Salem data.. The wind direction for Portland and Salem is very consistent from surface up but speed increases slightly with elevation. Maybe they got wind wrong where Cooper jumped. Maybe the wind was from the South when and where Cooper jumped just after 8:00 PM.
In fact, it states… surface measurements
at 7:00 PM
Toledo, Washington: 3,500 scattered, measured 4,700 feet overcast, visibility 12 miles, temperature 41, wind SSW 4 knots. Rain ended at 6:15 p.m.
at 8:00 PM
Salem, Oregon: 1,500 scattered, measured 2,600 overcast, 5 miles visibility, light rain showers, temperature 43, wind SSS 9 knots.
Portland, Oregon: 1,500 .scattered, measured 2,700 broken, ;5,ooo feet overcast. 7. miles visibility, light rain showers, 42, wind west 10 knots.
Toledo, Washington: Measured 3,000 feet overcast, 12 miles ·visibility, very light rain showers, temperature 42, wind south 5 knots. Rain began 7:35 p.m.
at 9:00 PM
Toledo, Washington: 3,000 scattered measured, 3,400 overcast, 12 miles visibility, temperature 42, wind south 6 knots. Rain ended at 8:05 p.m.
Where is this from? might want to adjust Salem winds “SSS”?
FBI files,, p 6197-6198 Salem “SSS” is accurate to the file?
The following suggests the wind was a “guess” for the LZ
“_______ also stated that to secure average of below
listed information for Woodland, Washington, an average of the
two sets of information would give close estimate of
conditions at Woodland. The information below is for the times
between 8:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. on November- 24, 1971”
Must be a typo since you can’t have south south south winds…
That may be but it isn’t the point. The FBI file suggests…
– the FBI averaged Portland and Salem data for wind direction and speed at Woodland.
– the wind data was virtually the same direction at all elevations.
– the wind at Toledo was from the S, closer to the LZ.
So, the FBI may have got the winds wrong where Cooper jumped.
I’ve done some digging and found that the FBI wind data for the LZ was derived from averaging Portland and Salem winds between 8-9 PM.. YIKES.
In other words, a GUESS.
Winds were virtually the same direction from surface up to elevation but increased in speed.
Winds were not constant, they shifted around from ESE to SSW measured at various locations, including Portland and Seattle/Tacoma.
The Placard was found basically right under the FBI flightpath and the erroneous conclusion thrown out is the flightpath was wrong. What it actually suggests, if the Placard find location was the precise landing location is that the FBI wind proxy was wrong for that location.
Close to 8 PM, the winds were from the S to ESE. That changes the LZ zone. We need to calculate an LZ for Cooper jumping at est 8:09 with a wind from the S..
If cooper jumped back first facing into the wind what would the drift be…
The Daily DB Cooper Bite for today. I discuss Cooper’s tie and some of the evidence from the tie.
Georger, a regular visitor and contributor of this site vis-a-vis a myriad of fake names, is jealous of EU’s excellent reports, calling them Elvis impersonations. At least EU has the fortitude to reveal his charm and coif to the camera. What would we see if Georger posted HIS mug with all of the fake names he uses? A Don Rickles look alike from 5 years ago? Or, would it be more of a Buddy Hackett look? Maybe a cross between Tiny Tim and the midget who appeared with Ricardo Montebalm (but NOT Ricardo). lol..lol..LOL.. We all would love to see what the Wizard of Iowa really looks like. Can anyone find some images…..or should we just continue to imagine??? Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Ted. I’m just putting my ideas out there for public consumption. Nonetheless, I’ve put a lot of thought into these ideas just as I’m sure others have done as well.
As for the Elvis stuff…I just think he’s a cool guy who is still cool 42 years after his death.
If we are to look at fake names or usernames. one needs to look no further than here?
Ha ha. The Wizard of Iowaz.
p 2442
Stewardess complied, going through first class section into pilots cockpit and locking door behind her.
p 6199
He advised that if the rear stairs on a 727 is lowered in flight at an altitude of less than 10,000 feet a change in pressurization occurs and this could be felt by the crew if door leading into the cockpit is open. If the cockpit door were closed, it is doubtful that the crew would experience the change in pressurization.
It was read on the gauges from the engineers panel..you would also hear the howling of the oscillation as other pilots recorded.,the door to the pilots is not air tight..
Oscillations vs pressure bump… was the door open or closed for the sled test?
Sled test…
There was a slight change in cabin pressure indicated by gauges, but not felt by the flight crew.
Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of Flight 305 the night of the hijacking, stated that the pressure bump felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking.
So the “pressure bump was not felt by the crew” but “the pressure bump felt during the test was identical”…
um OK…
This supports the FBI flightpath.
FBI FILE P 1662
_______ WAS INFORMED BY ___________ PORTLAND AIRPORT, THAT TWO CHASE WHICH PLANES FOLLOWING FIVE MILES BEHIND HIJACKED AIRCRAFT SUDDENLY VEERED TO THE EAST AND THEREAFTER MADE A RIGHT TURN. THE POINT OF THEIR CHANGE OF COURSE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN CLOSE PROXIMITY IN TIME AND LOCATION TO THAT BELIEVED WHERE UNSUB DEPARTED THE PLANE.
which file?
FBI part 10 page 1662
I see different factions on this case. Here I see people who are against Blevins, Georger, Flyjack, Eric Ulis. It’s difficult to determine if you are against them as people, or against their suspect or their interpretation of the facts, or in Ted and Johnny Greene’s case, either really for Eric Ulis, or really against Georger. After reading the posts for a few weeks, I think I understand some of the flow and can decide some for myself. But new people may be scared off. It seems very difficult for a new person to join in on the case.
RichG, may I say that there are two camps here. One, the camp that attacks and belittles. Two, the camp that welcomes honest discussion and debate. I’m in the latter camp.
When all is said and done I have no enemies here. I actually enjoy everyone’s comments. I even welcome vigorous challenges to my theories and ideas.
That said, people may disagree with grace or chose another path. Regardless, I try hard not to take it personally.
It’s an odd by-product of the DB Cooper mystery, but the NORJAK case causes me to say that I am glad the man did it. I have had a terrific opportunity to meet and speak with some very cool people. For that I am eternally grateful.
Fifty years on, what’s done is done. DB Cooper, whomever he may be, is alright in my book. Why? Because I think it was a one-off event borne of a unique situation. Simply put, I do not believe he tried anything of that nature ever again and who am I to judge.
I will not cast the first stone, or any stone? We all walk a certain path in life. We all learn or choose not to learn.
Cheers!
The bruising that newbies get here and elsewhere in Cooper World is real, but unfortunate. I remember how I would get my skin ripped off in 2008 when I first started posting at the DZ. OUCH!
For those who would like to express themselves, ask questions, offer ideas, etc and would assurances that they will not be flayed by the forces a work in the Cooper Vortex, I suggest you simply email me directly, and if suitable I will re-post here. Perhaps that will provide a measure of cover.
I’m at Brucesmith At Rainierconnect Dot com.
Ulis casts himself now as Elvis. Ulis is either an idiot or he plays and sings real well – Ha Ha Ha. You decide. Is Ulis as good as Elvis, does Ulis just admire Elvis, what is going on? Why does Elvis matter in a Cooper forum? Who brought Elvis up? Ulis did! Some people worship Elvis. Does anyone worship Ulis? If Ulis died would anyone miss him or worship him? Ulis brought it all up. I didn;t! Maybe you people need to get a life ?
Or read Georger’s comments at the DB Cooper Forum. He is the one who made the first comparison of Eric to Elvis.
Good point. So, Bernard Maris must actually be Georger? But he actually sounds more like Derek. It must be Georger impersonating Derek. But it may really be Blevins impersonating Georger impersonating Derek.
The FBI flightpath does veer East around 20:12 and turns right around 20:15.. that eliminates an alternate western flightpath.
FBI FILE 10 P 1662
_______ WAS INFORMED BY ___________ PORTLAND AIRPORT, THAT TWO CHASE WHICH PLANES FOLLOWING FIVE MILES BEHIND HIJACKED AIRCRAFT SUDDENLY VEERED TO THE EAST AND THEREAFTER MADE A RIGHT TURN. THE POINT OF THEIR CHANGE OF COURSE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN CLOSE PROXIMITY IN TIME AND LOCATION TO THAT BELIEVED WHERE UNSUB DEPARTED THE PLANE.
The Elvis flightpath has left the building…
Big LOL,…. FLY.
Today’s Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss some of the evidence found on the jet.
Cooper didn’t demand nonstop to Mexico City, he demanded nonstop to Mexico.
It is 1895 miles from SeaTac to Mazatlan within the 727 range. (Mazatlan was mentioned somewhere in the FBI files but I can’t find it)
It wasn’t a ruse, Cooper made a demand he thought was achievable, it makes no sense that he would make a demand that he knew would be rejected. No way.
Cooper’s initial plan was to jump South of US border.
Those who say everything (daily!) say nothing.
Elvis has left the building!
Georger has just left Pluto!
Daily DB Cooper Bite for today. I discuss the subjective evidence.
Another outstanding bite, EU. You have a lot more to offer than some of the so-called “experts.” Good spokesmanship for the case.
PS. Ignore Georger.
Thanks Marla! I don’t mind Georger. Some of his stuff is actually quite funny. I’m certainly capable of enjoying a good laugh at my expense. Cheers!
Yes, Ulis is pretty good and very savvy with his reasoning skills. Great in front of the camera too and of course, this just irritates guys like Georger who have no physical presence in the case and prefers to lurk in the shadows under assumed identities, but with all the knowledge and connections to boast a level of superiority above all others in the case. Does anyone know what Ulis does for a living? Professional background? Training? College?
Great questions, JG. I noticed that EU didn’t respond back, which always raises the question of qualifications and authenticity. Someone suggested that EU is a professional gambler, which of course draws suspicion as to motive in taking such an active role in the DB Cooper mystery. EU’s web page bio mentions something about Harvard University. Is that intended to misrepresent his education and build a false impression? Hope EU can clarify honestly in an upcoming Cooper bite.
Eric: Johnny Greene and Gypsy have asked valid question of you. I hope you respond, so we don’t end up with the assumption that you really don’t have any real credentials from which to base all of your theories and promotional skills about Cooper for public consumption. Do you in fact have a college degree, and from where? Any professional licenses or research skills which qualify you to speak? Just wondering if you could address. Conducting highly organized research is a skill in trade. Anyone with some speaking savvy can get into the camera’s face and rehash old information based on many other’s prior work, and pretend like it’s their own. Some here have been informed that you are a professional gambler. Is that what you do for a living?
Cooper asked for a “knapsack”,, WW2 paratrooper gear included a “knapsack”
Mr. Blevins. you are a known LIAR. you have been asked multiple times to stop posting here. you are well aware of this and hide behind a PHONY name. it’s not censorship or anything you try and lead people to believe. you were banned for a reason. it has nothing to do with being heard. you have tons of avenues to speak from.
You cancelled the trip for lack of interest. then once you seen Eric was going to the location you started whining and decided to do the trip again. then you tried to blame it all on me about wasting a lot of time on the subject.
why promote something you said was filling fast? you cancelled it because nobody was interested. then once you found out someone else stole your thunder the inventions were rolling in, lol. more lies.
If Cooper threw anything out (chute briefcase) they would be nowhere near the placard. perhaps you could look for Hoffa there. same odds 🙂
Eric is going to look at the location from the ground. he seen my post and responded. deal with it. it has nothing to do with you. similar to this thread.
Shutter, the one thing we have all learned over the years, at the major DB Cooper sites, is that Robert Blevins is a known liar. Everybody knows this. Eric Ulis it. Bruce Smith knows it. Georger. R99. FLY. Etc. Etc. We all try to ignore the SOB. He is one if the biggest intrusions and obsticals in this entire case.
Shutter, the one thing we have all learned over the years, at the major DB Cooper sites, is that Robert Blevins is a known liar. Everybody knows this. Eric Ulis it. Bruce Smith knows it. Georger. R99. FLY. Etc. Etc. We all try to ignore the SOB. He is one if the biggest intrusions and obsticals in this entire case.
Mr. Bevins has no game in the Cooper case….period. He doesn’t even have any interest in the case, just camping and showing people he still drives a Nissan. He’s actually the brunt of all the jokes in the Cooper case, from invading the privacy of Bruces home to threatening a shutdown of the Cooper Convention. Mr. Blevins is nothing more than an irrelevant old curmudgeon with lots of time on his hands. A jealous guy, Walter Mitty type, with low-level learning skills. Mr. Blevins is like the can that gets kicked down the road. No one gives a damn about it, but it’s fun to give it another kick….
Looks like EU has competition. Blevins is posting “camping bites” on one of the sites. Regular updates on how to camp and search for DB Cooper with Blev. If Bruce can get ahold of 377 and locate 4 or 5 NB8 frames and some old nylon chutes, we could ask the Easter Bunny to plant some “eggs” for the kiddie campers near Castle Rock. Too bad Ken Christianson isnt around as he would love this game with the kiddies. He loved kiddies.
… which was obvious to everyone the day he joined DZ back in August of 010 I believe it was. But there were warnings! Geoff Gray said Blevins would crash everything. Gray said he had had prior experience with Blevins … Gray would not elaborate. So in a way while Gray was milking Cooper for what he could get he didnt seem to mind that his nemesis Blevins was now in the public domain getting ready to crash NORJAK for everyone. What can the average person do about it – nothing.
This is what started the problem. Robert was going out there and then he cancelled (no shock) due to lack of interest from Cooper fans. I made a post saying it would benefit the case to see what the area looked like from the ground. Robert responded saying maybe later in the year…
Eric pops on and agree’s with me and says he’s going to the location. Bobby gets all bent out of shape and then says the trip is back on. in between all of this he gets the hair brain idea Eric wants to tag along. that didn’t go well either.
In the end. Eric is going out there to take some pics and Robert is going at a later date to search for evidence.
Daily DB Cooper Bite…I talk about how we can solve the mystery.
Eric, you seem to be immune to facts and evidence to push that alternate flightpath based on your unknown assumptions…
FBI FILE P 1662
_______ WAS INFORMED BY ___________ PORTLAND AIRPORT, THAT TWO CHASE WHICH PLANES FOLLOWING FIVE MILES BEHIND HIJACKED AIRCRAFT SUDDENLY VEERED TO THE EAST AND THEREAFTER MADE A RIGHT TURN. THE POINT OF THEIR CHANGE OF COURSE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN CLOSE PROXIMITY IN TIME AND LOCATION TO THAT BELIEVED WHERE UNSUB DEPARTED THE PLANE.
Found something interesting..
Finally,, After carefully analyzing the Cooper money in a video in slow motion, I am convinced that the stack has a piece of rubber band attached to the top bill. My theory is that the 3 packets arrived as one bundle, the rubber bands holding the packets together in a bundle deteriorated and the 3 packets slightly separated. The sides of the money packets was completely gone so there is no way the rubber bands were “intact” or “around the packets”, they “crumbled to the touch”..
Downloading and running the video in slow motion it is clear that the object which appears to be a rubber band fragment is under the plastic covering the money attached to the money and not a reflection.
The takeaway,
The rubber band was one third from the end, that suggests two were used.
It appears to be a medium wide rubber band. Some are thinner some thicker.
Tom Kaye tested a single narrow band for one packet.
Two medium thick rubber bands suggests they were holding a bundle of packets and not individual packets of 100 bills.
This is very important as the dominant narrative has been that the packets arrived on TBAR independently and that restricts the means by which they could have arrived.
The 3 packets arriving on TBAR as one bundle is a game changer. FBI agent Pringle also claimed the money was from one bundle.
pic at DZ..
FLY, as I stated in the Daily DB Cooper Bite, we have to challenge assumptions in this case if we expect to discover something new after 47 years.
Where is the sudden turn to the east on the FBI flight path? How do you explain that each of the three flight path maps (December 1971 version, 1972 version, and Yellow FBI Flight Path version) are all different? How do you explain the money find in relation to the FBI flight paths? How do you explain the placard find in relation to the FBI flight paths? Are you aware that the SAGE link in the fighters was not operational that night, therefore, the fighters couldn’t automatically fly to the target? How is it that the fighters were following behind 305, witnessed a phantom turn east, yet were having a problem following 305 and had to break off the pursuit because 305 was only travelling at 200 MPH? Why would an F-106 be incapable of flying at 200 MPH? Why are portions of the radio transcripts concerning Seattle Center redacted? Is it possible that an explanation for the redacted information may relate to an inoperable SAGE system on that night and that, for matters related to national security, this information was not disclosed publicly? Why did Major Dawson, the guy responsible for coordinating the chase plane effort at McChord say the jet flew in a straight line from Toledo to the western suburbs of Portland? Why has nothing been found? None of the above bothers you or causes you to question the veracity of the FBI Flight Path?
My point is this: By people swallowing and not questioning the Palmer Report for 25-years the truth of the matter became impossible to discover. Why? Because according to Palmer the money had to arrive on Tena Bar after the August 1974 dredge, and according to Palmer, probably arrived around 1979.
Well, guess what, Palmer was wrong? The expert made a mistake as proven by Tom Kaye and the Cooper Research Team in 2008. This one mistake ended up being huge and completely changed the nature of the investigation. Are you here to tell me that you are absolutely certain that the FBI Flight Path isn’t Palmer Report 2.0? That it is not possible for the FBI Flight Path to be off by 8 or 9 miles?
Too many logical fallacies for me to address..
Your few weak assumptions do not overcome the FBI flightpath evidence.
BOOM, I got it figured out….
Cooper took Cossey’s back chute not Hayden’s. Hayden did supply two back chutes one was given to Cooper and left on the plane but it wasn’t the one he got back.. Hayden got back the other chute not given to Cooper.
Cossey was correct, Cooper jumped with his back chute. NOT Hayden’s.
Proof, the unused chute found on the plane was a 1960 model, 24′ Pioneer.
The one Hayden got back was a 1957, 26′ Pioneer. So, there is no way Cooper jumped with the other Hayden chute. It had to be Cossey’s.
So in other words, Hayden didn;t recognize his own chute he got back from the FBI years later? Bruce didn’t question this in his interviews with Hayden – doesnt know anything about chutes! And Hayden has kept quiet about the whole thing ? Its a big SNAFU! ???
I’m confused. Hayden got back Earl Cossey’s Pioneer parachute? Wow.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Hayden didn’t realize that he got a different parachute. He never used them, and it took the FBI 10-15 years to give it back to him after a legal court battle. So Hayden didn’t see his parachute until the mid-1980s.
As for me, yup, I wouldn’t know shit from shine-ola when it comes to parachutes, which is why I brought along Bruce Thun, the jump master from Thun Field.
No, Georger.. Hayden got back his own chute. Not the one left on the plane.
WOW!
This is the first I’ve heard of this information. Where did you get it Fly?
So, Fly, what I understand you to say is that four back chutes were delivered to NWO – two from Cossey and two from Hayden. Cossey sent a military chute and a Pioneer. Hayden, two Pioneers. Correct?
Then, somehow, Cossey’s NB-6 (or NB-8) got on-board 305, along with a Pioneer. But whose Pioneer? One of Hayden’s? Cossey’s?
Then some kind of switch took place – perhaps the FBI held onto two back chutes – and gave Hayden a Pioneer in 1985 that was actually Cossey’s? So, Hayden’s original two Pioneers are still in FBI custody? Or one of Cossey’s original Pioneers and one of Hayden’s Pioneers?
It sounds like we have two unaccounted for back chutes. Calling Frank Montoya – the last Norjak case agent, or actually Curtis Eng’s boss at Seattle Division.
Frankie! WASSUP?
No, one of Hayden’ and one of Cossey’s went to Cooper, Hayden’s remained on the plane. The FBI gave Hayden back the other chute that never went to Cooper.
So, Cooper used Cossey’s chute.
Whoa,, get the story straight here,, herding cats.
Cossey and Hayden both sent back chutes to the FBI.
The chute left in the plane was a 1960 24′ Pioneer, that is Hayden’s (#1). (per FBI docs)
The chute Hayden got back was a 1957 26″. (#2)
So, Hayden didn’t get the chute back that was left on the plane by Cooper (#1), he got back the one that wasn’t given to Cooper. (#2)
That means, Cooper got one from Cossey and one from Hayden (#1). Since Hayden’s chute was left on the plane Cooper jumped with Cossey’s and he wasn’t lying.
Everybody got it.
I’ll be here all week and don’t forget to try the veal.
oops 26′ not “, that would be a Spinal Tap move
The evidence is in images posted at DZ. The Hayden chute card and the FBI doc.
Bottom line, Hayden got back his chute that was never given to Cooper and Cooper jumped with Cossey’s chute.
and Georger is wrong,, Hayden got back his own chute, it just was never given to Cooper, his other chute was and it was left on the plane.
Still confused.
We have four back chutes: One NB-6, and three Pioneers.
Cooper gets the NB-6 – from Cossey – and the 1960 24′ Pioneer – from Hayden.
That leaves Cossey’s Pioneer unaccounted for? Or was it given back to Hayden in 1985?
So what is missing is the 1960 24′ Pioneer from Hayden that was recovered in Reno and Hayden’s second chute. Correct?
It sounds like a mix and match occurred.
Plus, Cossey never said that he got his Pioneer returned. Hence, it either went to Hayden in 1985, or is one of the two now-missing Pioneers.
BTW: none of these chutes were delivered to the FBI, per se. They were all delivered to NWO Freight Desk, who took responsibility for getting them on 305. At least that is what I was told by Cossey; and Hayden’s transfer is confirmed by George Harrison’s notes from Sea-Tac that night and are now part of the WSHM file on Norjak. Hayden told me he was instructed by Harrison to send his two back chutes to the NWO Freight Desk and did so via his instructions to his cabbie who actually made the transfer.
Further confusion.
Are you saying that Hayden gave two different types of Pioneers? One was a 26-footer and one was a 24-footer?
And:
Hayden’s 24-footer went on-board 305, flew to Reno and then vanished? Then, in 1985 the FBI gave back to Hayden his 26-foot Pioneer – which didn’t get onboard 305 and never traveled to Reno – and was kept somewhere for 14 years?
That leaves Cossey’s Pioneer as one of two missing back chutes, along with the Reno 24-footer from Hayden.
Now do I have it correct?
yes,
The chute left on the plane (per FBi doc) is a 1960, 24′ Pioneer, packed by Cossey May 21, 1971. << That matches the packing date for Hayden's other chute given back a 1957, 26' Pioneer, packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.
That tells us Hayden's 1960 Pioneer was left by Cooper on the plane and Hayden's 1957 chute which was returned to him was never given to Cooper.
That means Cooper never jumped with either of Hayden's chutes.
He must have jumped with Cossey's. He was not lying.
24 foot sounds like the front chute. Hayden didn’t get his chute back for years. he had to sue them to get in back..he gave them two chutes. when returned you can see on the card the FBI had a packer open the chute twice.
Has it occurred to anyone that the Cossey parachute given to Cooper was actually the cannibalized reserve that was left on the jet and recovered by the FBI? After all, it has his name on it…that is, of course, if “COSS” means Cossey.
The canopy is with it (pink) Cossey mentions the dummy had a white canopy…
The reserve had “COSS” written on it? I never heard that before. Coss never told me, either!
Fly, I need a little more confirmation on the packing cards. The 24′ and 26′ Pioneers from Hayden both had cards signed by Cossey? I saw one – on the 26-footer, I suppose, when I visited Hayden. Where can I see a pix of the card for the 24-footer?
Where do you think the 24-foot Pioneer is now? Also, where do you think the 26-footer was for 14 years? Any ideas?
The chute in evidence matches the serial number in the 302. Haydens also matches as being the one left behind..
Here it is in the FBI’s Seattle Field Office.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0111/7146/3226/files/Cooper_Reserve.jpg?44
As for Earl Cossey being truthful. Well…… Let’s start with the military rig. Whaddayasay? Wanna go with the NB-6 OR the NB-8. Remember, he has said both. Pick one, then tell me why. I’m all ears.
Then we can get into the real minutiae with Coss, such as his insistence that he NEVER discussed the technical aspects of the parachutes with the FBI even though he was a parachute consultant for them. Go figure, I say.
Or how about his assessment of his NB-6, saying it was too tough for Cooper to deploy? You think Coss was lying about that? Just askin’.
Thanks, Eric. Interesting pix on the reserve. I don’t think I have ever seen the “Coss” tag on it before. I wonder why Coss never told me about it.
Those pictures have been on Tom’s site for years?
I’ve simply attributed Cossey’s comments about owning a parachute–or parachutes–given to DBC, and getting reimbursed for them/it, pertained to the genuine reserve left on the jet. Remember, the two reserves were collected by Emrick and sent to 305.
I do not believe there were actually four parachutes, plus two reserves, sent to 305. After all, where then are the other two mains?
Yup. That is the 64,000 question.
In GG’s file they list the two parachutes found on the plane. the chute the FBI has was the working front chute (pink)
Cossey stated the dummy had a white canopy.
Hayden’s chute is in the description as well.
what I don’t follow and have posted several times is the mention of the 24 foot chute they also claim was on the plane. 60-9707 24 foot is a front chute..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GEN3V2CPVrA0OXE-by10ycEbblr4jXMZ/view?usp=sharing
The chute left on the plane was Hayden’s a 1960, 24 ft.
FBI part 17 page 4955
_________ Nevada State Air National Guard, Reno airport, Reno, Nevada, advised that after examining a parachute which was found on the Northwest airplane, which was hi-jacked in Seattle, Washington on November 24, 1971, and landed in Reno, Nevada, that this parachute was a 1960 model, 24 feet in Length, Conical type Commercial manufactured by the Pioneer Parachute Company. ______ stated that this paraehute was in very good condition and capable of being operated at any time. _________ also found a white card located in a pocket on this parachute, which indicated that this was inspected on May 21, 1971 by E.J. COSSEY, Riggers, license number 1579638. This card also listed the name of the Brown Engineering Company, Post Office Box 1436, Patterson, California, 95363.
The chute returned to Hayden was a 1957, 26 ft.
So, Cooper did not jump with either of Hayden’s chutes.
He jumped with Cossey’s, which one of Cossey’s, I don’t know, where are the missing chutes, I don’t know.
24 foot in length, not diameter…
everything seems to match except the year..sounds like someone got the wrong info or wrote down the wrong info…
Yes, the genuine reserve is the pink parachute. Furthermore, the dummy reserve had a white canopy, Furthermore, Tina saw Cooper wrapping cash in something white. Furthermore, the dummy reserve is missing, Therefore, I theorize that what Tina witnessed was Cooper putting “some” of the packets of twenties into the dummy reserve, because, the bank bag was too full to properly secure for the jump without removing several packets. And, the three packets found buried on Tena Bar were a portion of what Tina saw Cooper packing in the dummy reserve.
Cooper took the money directly out of the bag. not putting it back doesn’t make any sense. that’s like having your wallet out and putting the money in your pocket if someone paid you back?
I’m not sure if I understand the question, or statement.
I’m saying DBC had to remove some of the packets of twenties from the bank bag because it was too full in order for it to be secured with the shroud lines he used.
When he landed I’m suggesting he immediately discarded his main parachute, attache’ case, and the dummy reserve. However, he obviously would have removed the packets of twenties he had placed in the dummy reserve before he discarded it.
DBC would not have placed these packets back into the ransom bag once on the ground because the ransom bag was still tied shut. These packets would have most likely been put in his coat pocket.
Then, upon temporarily burying the ransom bag and the packets of twenties from his coat pocket on Tena Bar, DBC got out of the area and crafted a game plan to go back and retrieve the ransom. It was during the retrieval process, at night, that he removed the still-tied-shut bank bag from the hole, as well as the packets of twenties he had thrown in the hole from his coat pocket. However, Cooper did not notice that three of these packets were left behind and reburied for another 8 years.
Thanks, Fly.
Yup, Shut, the mention of a 24-footer is confusing in that FBI tidbit you posted a link to. It also confirms that the back chute found in Reno was Hayden’s 26-footer. That’s the one I saw when I visited with Hayden.
So Fly, we have conflicting data.
They likely read it off the card they found,, look at the image of the Hayden chute card.. I doubt they measured the chute but just wrote down what the card said.
1960, 24ft vs 1957, 26ft..
Hayden claimed a 26 ft and a 28 ft.. diameter??
Both length and year is clearly written on the card.
Shutter’s link to the file image also says a 24 ft ripstop found on plane, that is Hayden back chute. packed 5/21/71
perhaps we have a conflation of length vs diameter..
I don’t know parachute card marking conventions..
sounds like someone was confused that wrote the 302. the year isn’t the model and the length isn’t the diameter.
It says a 1960 model and your post image also says a 24 ft for the back chute left on the plane.
Nothing wrong with that 302.
This describes the two Hayden chutes…
The 26 ft he got returned to him..
and
the 24 ft that was left on the plane…
There is no inconsistency. Cooper didn’t use either Hayden chute.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GEN3V2CPVrA0OXE-by10ycEbblr4jXMZ/view
The problem I see is they list evidence by letters. “E” is Haydens chute. “F” is the pink chute found the evidence. (lines cut)
For some reason the other chute is listed on there but not lettered, or underlined as the other two are.. should be E, F, an G If they were talking about 3 chutes found on the plane. 24 foot in diameter sounds like a front chute. I posted that part several times over the last couple years. I can’t automatically assume we have extra chutes unaccounted for at this moment. it’s similar to Agent Manning possibly telling the sheriff the bomb was wrapped in red plastic.
Hayden gave them two chutes and only got one back.
I just had a long conversation with Tom Kaye. there were 3 different 302 files and 80% of them were the same. the other 20% was different. inaccurate information will get on them. they are not error proof. one file says one thing while another says the opposite.
Sure there are 302 errors but that wouldn’t explain this, Cossey claimed he sent two back chutes and he owned them, Hayden we know sent two chutes. Now the inspection of the chute left and card on the plane says 1960 and 24 ft and packed May 21/1971, that is one of Hayden’s chutes. It is also noted on your image that the chute found was packed on May 21/1971 was also a 24 ft. Hayden received a 1957 26ft, that can’t be Coopers and it can’t be the one found on the plane.
So, all the evidence suggests that there were 4 back chutes, 2 from Hayden and 2 from Cossey. One of Hayden’s was left on the plane and he got one back that means Cossey wasn’t lying, Cooper used one of his chutes. It all fits.
The other thing was the modified ripcord… Cossey wouldn’t modify one of Hayden’s chutes.. He modified his own..
do you have the 302 saying Cossey gave them back chutes?
Nothing specific in the 302’s, some allude to Cossey being the owner, one seems to be referring to four back chutes, (two both olive drab green then Hayden’s one tan and one olive drab green) p 1747. Nothing conclusive.
some citations in Bruce’s article and the Hayden’s packing card matches the chute labelled E in the image posted, the other one, the 24 ft was left on the plane, the 1960.
Cooper didn’t necessarily use the NB – 6? He could have used the Pioneer from Cossey, no? We know Cossey said he gave a military chute – and a Pioneer – but did the NB – 6 actually get on the plane?
If Hayden’s 24-footer vanished and his 26-footer was in limbo for 14 years, maybe Cossey’s NB – 6 is in the same storage locker…
I posted that possibility at DZ…
Advancing this one step,,
Cossey claimed he supplied a Pioneer and another customized type..
Per FBI, Cossey assumed the chute Cooper used based on what the FBI told him was left behind.
When Cossey heard that a Pioneer was left on the plane he would have naturally assumed it was his other chute and the customized one was used by Cooper.
If the unused Pioneer was Hayden’s then Cossey’s assumption may have been wrong. Further, if Cooper used Cossey’s Pioneer then all the found chutes/parts shown to Cossey would have been wrongly compared.
It’s my understanding Cossey wasn’t even at the center. Emerick gave them the two front chutes. he mentions nothing about back packs.
Cossey claimed they were from his house.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss analyzing suspects.
I don’t agree that the person who finds DB Cooper will be famous and make a lot of money. People will care a lot more about who DB Cooper is than who found him.
Cooper’s tie was “Dacron Polyester”.. many of the found tie particles match those used in the manufacturing process for Dacron.. in other words, many of those rare particles were already on the tie when new. The rare tie particle chase is a bit of a red herring.
Tom Kaye needs to test another Pennys 1965 era “Dacron Polyester” clipon tie.. to determine which particles may have come from the manufacturing process.
FBI file 26 p 8570
Black Snap-On Tie and Tie Tack
An examination of the tie by the writers revealed noticeable amounts of dust in the inner knot area. In addition to the markings “3 Penneys”, two other labels were found as follows: “Snapper Pat. 2972750. It’s a snap to snap on”; and “100% Dacron Polyester Washable RN 16484”. From writers’ experience in Theft From Interstate Shipment cases Penneys merchandise, it is known that the RN number is a manufacturer’s code. Penneys headquarters will be able to determine where the was manufactured, when imported and which stores this tie.
—-
Click to access US2984576.pdf
Zirconia and hafnia sols or finely divided powders can be used as binding agents in a wide variety of applications. These can range from refractories in which the zirconia or hafnia serve to bind components together to plastic material in which they serve a similar function. Likewise, they can be used to bind organic acids or other organic compounds such as dyes.
It is especialy effective with synthetic polyacrylonitrile fibers such as
“Orlon,” ‘Dacron’ polyester, and nylon polyamide types.
“Generally zirconia or hafnia particles will be used with refractory metal oxides and sulfides, refractory interstitial type compounds of carbon and nitrogen intermetallics of rare earths and refractory metals.
Refractory compositions including refractory metal oxides can be made with such oxides as aluminum oxide, barium oxide, beryllium oxide, calcium oxide, cerium oxide, chromic oxide, cobaltus oxide, gallium oxide, lanthanum oxide, magnesium oxide, maganese oxide MnO, maganous oxide, neodymium oxide, nickel oxide, silica niobium oxide, strontium oxide, tantalum oxide, thorium oxide, titanium dioxide and titanium suboxides such as TiO, stannic oxide, tungstic oxide, uranium dioxide, vanadium oxides, VO, VO2, VO2VO3, yttrium oxide, zinc oxide, and cadmium oxide. Of the above, zirconia and hafnia will ordinarily be used most desirably with alumina. silica, ceria, titania, magnesia, thoria and calcia.”
Whoa,, did Tosaw get the unused Cossey chute and give it to Galen Cook?? (not sent to Cooper)
Galen Cook, Attorney at Law says:
October 26, 2011 at 12:33 pm
Bruce:
Good bit of work on this story. Tosaw gave me one of Cossey’s NB-8 rigs and I kept it in my garage for some time. It was pretty simple, and made as a reliable chute for emergencies. This one also had Cossey’s signature on the rigger’s card, which was located in a small flap on the side.
If thats true then Tosaw and Mr. Cook interfered with the case! Both could be charged! There are people who Tosaw worked with who say he represented himself as an active FBI agent who was ‘working on the case’. If thats true that was misrepresentation. (illegal) On the other hand Cook is a proven liar and dirty tricks guy. The Cooper Vortex is full of these guys! I would discount anything Cook says.
Fly, can you check something…here are the coords around the placard. 8:02 -8:05. I’m showing the placard west of the path.
8:02 plot N46°18.07′ W122°42.22′
8:03 plot N46°15.10′ W122°41.51′
8:05 plot N46°12.03′ W122°39.09′
Using those co-ords,, Looks like the Placard is about 400 ft NE of the flightpath, but there was a 1 mile error later revised to .5 mile error.
Most important, the winds used by FBI were an average from Portland and Salem between 8-9PM. The winds closer to 8 PM were from the ESE and shifted to S and SSW..
In other words, the winds weren’t a fact, they were an estimate. If the winds were closer ESE the Placard would have drifted back along the flightpath.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the role of citizen sleuths in the case.
You dont know anything! WHAT A MORON!
IMPOSTER ALERT! MN has been hacked!
Someone has stolen my identity, and I strongly suggest we all know him as “G…..r.” He no longer appears at MN under his long held identity, and likes to impose under multiple assumed names. So, the true Marla will no longer post here. However, about 50 posts or so, scrolling up, G….r asks Mr. Ulis for academic and professional qualifications. Mr. Ulis?
Hi Bruce. The Marla imposter is not Georger, but rather ROBERT BLEVINS, the guy who hacks into your site even after you banned him. You might want to check your security. BLEVINS does this stuff routinely.
A short bio is available on my site at
https://thecoopercase.com/pages/about-eric-ulis
Found another FBI document… Parachutes found on plane
——————————-
FBI doc page 4951
“On the floor directly in front of seat number 18D, the exterior canvas cover for a chest type parachute was observed along with the handle utilized for releasing this parachute.
The label on this canvas covering indicated it to be Pack Part Number 4511876B and indicated the date of manufacture to have been October, (year illegible). The flap on this canvas exterior contained a sewn on white label with the notation SSS # 5 and COSS. This flap had also been stenciled with the name JOHNSON.
An opened parachute which apparently had been removed from the canvas parachute cover described above was found spread out over seats 17C and 17B. This parachute was of a pink-orange color.
On seat 18B, an unopened back type parachute was observed. A card in the pocket of this parachute reflected it to be a Conacol type parachute, number 60-9707 and made by the Pioneer Parachute Company. This card indicated it was last inspected on May 21, 1971.”
———————————-
The Pioneer back chute 60-9707 left on the plane does not match the the chute Hayden got back from the FBI..
1. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 26 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 226, DATE OF MFR 9/57 (1957) — packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)
2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 60-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960) — packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID’d by National Guard in Reno)
The mystery of the parachutes deepens. Thanks, Fly.
And why is your comments removed? it’s because Bruce doesn’t want you posting on here. instead of “giving it to them straight” you come onto this site under a false name to try and prove “giving it to them straight” lol. what’s next. the bomb was wrapped in red plastic lol. try reading what the actual witnesses said about the bomb and not what someone got wrong. get that straight?
You are right about one thing, Robert. You are not hard to find. Bruce found you. Went right to your doorstep at your home in Auburn, WA. He interviewed your wife while you were gone camping. This really incensed you, even though you previously went to Bruce’s house announced. But the real gut shot was when Bruce referred to your wife as an “old lady.” Oh, that hurt, especially after you told us all that she was a “beauty” queen from CA. Feel free to never post on Bruce’s site again.
Thanks, Eric. Great stuff as usual. I didn’t know we had a Harvard man working on the case. It should be cracked soon.
Well, suppose Blevins IS telling the truth? Who then? Georger? Blevins wouldn’t necessarily come out so quickly to defend himself, if he was the impostor. Does he hate Cook that much? Does he hate Tosaw? Never heard that before. I’d bet more on Georger. Reason: Georger doesn’t like anybody.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I talk about how the FBI dropped the ball while investigating DBC.
Best post yet, Eric. While these other goofballs are out accusing each other of using fictitious names to talk smack about each other, you are actually doing something to solve the case. Please ignore the chatter from Georger and Blevins. That is personal bad blood from over 10 years ago. btw, what is your drink and your favorite humidore? When you crack this case I’m buying a case of the best liquor and any imported smoke you desire. I think you are destined to be the hero in this DB Cooper saga
Marla, thanks for the positive feedback and kind words.
I tell you what, if I am fortunate enough to be the guy who solves this case–that is my objective–then the drinks and cigars are on me.
I’m actually a big fan of scotch, neat…Macallan comes to mind. That said, I’ve always enjoyed a craft IPA too. On the cigar front, my favorite–non-Cuban–is anything from Padron.
Cheers!
Marla and TED like to stroke Eric Ulis’s ego. Maybe they are all Eric Ulis. A Harvard man TED? I know some Harvard men who would take offense at that. From what I’ve read, Eric Ulis is not the first or even the second or third person to mention Sheridan Peterson, and Peterson is not a suspect in anyone’s mind. Ulis took the idea from a man named Salishaw. If the FBI had Peterson in the 1970’s then why haven’t they arrested him? Eric Ulis claims positivity, but reading his posts across the other boards, he is not, he’s passive aggressive. Many of you live in a make-believe world where you think people actually care about your obsession.
RichG, I stand by my assertions regarding Sheridan Peterson as likely being DB Cooper. That is to say, there is an awful lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to the man. That said, meeting a certain legal threshold is an entirely separate matter.
I am very curious as to how Sheridan knew that DBC jumped with an emergency rig (verified) and how he knew that the dummy reserve was daisy-chained (unverified).
I think it’s pretty clear by now that anyone who comes up with some great idea or revelation in the Cooper mystery will also find themselves being attacked
relentlessly. Carr got it. Bruce. Blevins. Cook. Marla Cooper. The list goes on. This is a very competitive case.
And now, Ulis. Ulis seems straight-up and is willing to share his expertise. Bruce has a pleasant personality. Blevins….uh I did say some things that were not very nice and take it back now. I’m not sure what to think about him now. I guess he is defending his turf like every other sleuth. Two names that stick out in my mind as being particularly nasty are Meyer Louie and Georger. Old age and having terrible dispositions worked against both of them. And they just kind of faded away.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss life in America during the time of the skyjacking.
Outstanding! Cheers.
Eric, here’s a suggestion for upcoming DBC bites: examine each of the major suspects, one show to each suspect, with your opinion.
Johnnie I think that’s a great idea. I’ll see if I can start something along those lines this coming week. I’ll probably have to intersperse the suspect discussions just so there aren’t two solid weeks of these things.
Johnnie-What great idea or revelation has Eric Ulis come up with? Some of the names you mention seem to pop up a lot around DB Cooper. Ulis seems fairly new to the case. You clearly dislike Georger and Robert Blevins, is that where your support of him comes from?
As for the daisy chained chute-I googled daisy chain skydive and there is a lot of info on chutes being daisy chained. There is also a lot of information saying that DB Cooper asked for four parachutes and two were what people call emergency chutes. Is this all the evidence Ulis has against Sheridan Peterson?
I decided to watch one his bytes. If DB Cooper worked at Boeing in Seattle then don’t you think the FBI would have figured that out or someone would have turned him in?
The same would go for a Northwest Orient employee. they were checked as well. especially the flight crews. not just the pilots…
Good point, Shutter. As for McCoy: two things. 1) McCoy was 29, not mid-40’s. 2) McCoy had baby blues eyes.
You mentioned earlier about people getting attacked with theories. it’s true. I like to attack the data though. McCoy is a good example..the witnesses said no. this was still fresh in there minds and people are pushing that he’s Cooper while disregarding someone who spent hours with him saying no dice…pretty simple….nope. they keep pushing..
McCoy does look a lot older than 29….
The Placard found virtually right under the flight path doesn’t show the plane was actually eight miles West.. it indicates the FBI got the winds wrong (at that location). What an amazing co-incidence, the Placard was found right under the flight path so many years later, but the plane was actually eight miles West. WOW, the placard drifted 8 miles to the exact spot for the FBI flightpath and all the evidence for the FBI flightpath is wrong. Boeing, NorthWest, the FBI, the Air Force, the chase plane pilots, ATC… all wrong based on 1 assumption, THE WIND.
If Eric and R99 actually researched the winds they’d realize that they were a guess based on Portland and Salem and averaged between 8-9PM.. the area winds were actually shifting from ESE to S to SSW..
The Placard location indicates and that the winds in that area were from the ESE to S at 8 PM… and that may also indicate Cooper’s drift direction a few minutes later. The nearby winds were measured shifting from the ESE to S to SSW and not from ONLY SSW as the FBI assumed. That may mean a different LZ where Cooper jumped.
It isn’t the flightpath they got wrong, it is the winds at that location and time. If you can’t confirm the winds at that location and time is NO analysis.
If you watch the episode of In Search Of. Hicks is on the show telling his story. I noticed the placard looked exactly like the real one. others were saying it was probably a copy. I then watch the credits at the end and sure enough. they thank Les Nelson. sheriff of Cowlitz county. when you look at the photo with the agent holding the card. the tag at the bottom says “Cowlitz county evidence” . I got the idea to look at the credits after Tom Kaye said the card wasn’t at Seattle.
The placard has a large tear in it. this would affect the aerodynamics of the card. the card appears to be a lot thinner as well. almost as thin as a decal. Hominid believed it was applied with adhesive vs pop rivets or screws. he did agree the upper right looks like something was holding it though.
This leave more variables surrounding the path of the placard….
The placard was attached to the emergency airstair release access door located to the right of the main hinged airstair control door. An uncommon option on 727’s. That emergency access door removed completely and it slightly larger than the placard. It has finger holes in it to pull off the wall.
Almost certainly the placard went out of the plane attached to that plastic access door which is probably still out in the woods. It likely went out when Cooper went down the stairs opening the airstairs up. Sometime between exiting the plane and Hicks turning it in the placard and the plastic access door were separated.
can you supply that information. Hominid explains that the box with the handle is the emergency access. the stairs are lowered from the outside by the ground crew. the handle is in the box to keep others away from it. this is why the stews knew how to use it. some had buttons or nothing at all. he said the placard might be exclusive to NW.
I posted docs for it on your site a while ago and recently on DZ recently.
The Emergency Placard Release was an uncommon option on 727’s, a small plastic door that pulls completely off located to the right of the much larger main aft airstair hinged door.
on this page..
https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?page=2327
EU, ERIC wrote:
“Finally, to answer FLY’s question on TMN: Yes, the placard drifted to close to where the FBI’s Flight Path is pegged. It’s not coincidence, it’s fact. It is what it is. In fact, it would have been much more coincidental–and harder to believe–if this 1/3 of an ounce piece of plastic fell straight to the ground from nearly 2 miles up with virtually no drift at all in a 31 knot wind. Remember, according to all of the data available, including the stuff Tom Kaye provided a couple of weeks back, the winds were in the 31 knot range from about 215 degrees. Simply inventing your own weather in that one spot is not going to change the truth of the matter. Such arguments are intellectually bankrupt.”
That comment and your complete ignorance and avoidance of the evidence that I have posted defines intellectual bankruptcy. It is clear to me that you have an agenda and it isn’t the truth.
You are using FBI assumptions for the winds, you’d think you check those assumptions, I did and they aren’t reliable at all. They took Portland and Salem data and averaged over an hour timespan. They winds were actually ESE around 8 PM. You will of course ignore it like you did the chase pilot statement’s that destroy your alternate flightpath nonsense because it doesn’t fit your theory.
You are using a single weak assumption to challenge overwhelming evidence, not evidence to challenge assumptions as you claim.
Placard found matches one missing off the plane skyjacked by DB Cooper in 1971…
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/20784821/man_finds_boeing_airplane_placard_that/
EU – Eric wrote,
“I think the most interesting thing about this discussion is the assertion that whomever had possession of the placard appeared to lend it to the producers of In Search Of for filming purposes. I must say, this is yet another indication of how sloppy this case got at times. It is inconceivable to me that this could happen. Moreover, considering that Tom Kaye and the CRT didn’t see this item makes me wonder if it’s been “lost or destroyed” too.”
This is an example of Eric’s poor critical thinking and eager adoption of assumptions to fulfill a confirmation bias..
The placard on the “In Search Of” show is a reproduction, you can tell by comparing the two images. They are NOT identical.
This case is riddled with this “noise”… another false assumption by a Cooper sleuth that supports and leads to an erroneous conclusion.
What is the purpose of this type of comment? It’s not only catty and snarky, it’s actually wrong.
For those who care to view a side-by-side comparison of the actual placard and the one featured on the show “In Search Of,” I have taken the liberty to post it at the following link:
https://thecoopercase.com/pages/placard-comparison
This is the type of crap that no one should have to tolerate. To disparage the work of others is not the same as challenging a theory or assumption. Furthermore, to kick it to the next level and suggest that I have an agenda or have to make something fit is insulting. I challenge anyone to come up with a single example of me having an agenda or having to make something fit.
Now, if you care to take a look at the side-by-side comparison I have posted at the link above it looks the same to me. If someone knows something that I don’t know it’d be nice to see it. It is not acceptable to simply make a pronouncement and not back it up with evidence.
I have always approached this case in an intellectually honest manner. The same cannot be said about others. Moreover, I’ve put my theories–and the rationale behind these theories–out there for everyone to see and challenge. Again, the same cannot be said about others.
My objective is to solve this case. I never lose sight of that goal. I seriously question the objectives of some others when reading comments like the one posted above.
I challenged your weak theory with many facts, you completely ignore them then try to discredit me with a personal dig,, that proves you aren’t interested in the truth or solving the case.
Gloves are off buddy, I don’t take that shit from anybody.
Your objective is to convince everyone that Sheridan Peterson is Cooper and you solved it.. based on your own overwhelming speculation.. layered on an extremely weak circumstantial case. Your SP theory is one of the weakest circumstantial cases I have seen. It is so weak that I lost interest. You don’t even understand the DNA and the daisy chaining comment is evidence of nothing. There are so many logically fallacies that I have lost track, I think you have actually invented some new ones.
but your placard flightpath logic is horrendous…
You are using a wind assumption by the FBI which was based on Portland and Salem averaged between 8-9PM to discount an incredible amount of evidence for the FBI flightpath. In addition, there is evidence that the wind nearby was ESE shifting to S around 8 PM aligning the placard with the flightpath. You ignore that and accuse me of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you aren’t confident in your own arguments. Look in a mirror Elvis. Further, the idea that the plane was many miles West and the placard found 7 years later just happened to land right under the FBI flightpath is incredible.
But you already know that…
Given all the information, you conclude all the evidence for the flightpath was wrong and it was an amazing co-incidence that the placard drifted many miles East to land right under the FBI path.. You are using a weak assumption to discount all the facts. That isn’t critical thinking, that is goal seeking.
Given all the information a rational person would conclude the FBI wind assumption was wrong for that location and time. You accept it because it fits your narrative.
You can spin your SP theory all you want there is nothing new there.
I don’t really care about other suspects as I am focussed on Hahneman right now since NOBODY ever looked into the best fitting suspect. SP has been done, all you have is poor logic, weak assumptions and crazy speculation to add.
I left Shutter’s site because it was unproductive and I am on my own here with Hahneman… he is by far the best suspect.
You can go ahead and push SP, I won’t challenge anything anymore. I am too busy to care.
Why dont you and FJ STFU for a day and give people a chance to think and adjust before your next onslaught of Cooper bs ?
Yes this is the Bruce Smith Wacko site, but do you have to take over all Cooper sites? Have some manners if nothing else!
Yes, EU and FJ need to buck-up and listen to Georger. Georger thinks the Bruce Smith Wacko Site is full of miscreants and fringe elements, but not so much that Georger himself can’t stay away for a few hours. No one is supposed to know that except Georger who rotates new posting names like a speed rolodex. It doesn’t fool Bruce Smith who maintains a log of every poster’s IP Number. Sorry to out you again, Georger. Wouldn’t you prefer the attention more if you just use your real name and he proud of it? Thanks for the lecture. See you at the other wacko sites.
what do you see that differs?
Lots, I’ll post the image at DZ..
It looks like a good reproduction.
I called the Cowlitz sheriff’s office yesterday but was told to call back on Monday. I want to see if they still have the card and if pictures can be obtained.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I ponder DBC’s decision to purchase his ticket to Seattle immediately before the flight.
Also, I’ve established a Facebook page which can be viewed at:
https://www.facebook.com/DBCooperChannel
Please feel free to visit the page, “like” it, and share it.
Another outstanding bite. Good use of common sense. Does any university offer a PhD in Common Sense?
Marla, I agree. Ulis has a professorial approach in his bites. A little humor, entertainment, and good technical reasoning skills. Plus, he’s a positive dude and upbeat. The Harvard Man of the Cooper case. Could you imagine if Jerry, er, I mean Georger, provided daily soundbites? Readers would all leave the Cooper sites in droves. Depressing!
Looks like the Placard may not have even come from Cooper… just when you think it can’t get any weirder…
“We took the Cooper plane up after the hijacking and simulated a drop by a parachutist,’’ he said.. “We noticed the decal was missing after that but not before.”
Click to access The_Times_News_Idaho_Newspaper_1979_01_19.pdf
nice catch
Good work! There may have been two tests in addition to the TAG team test. 3 in all. I guess that sends the Ulis-Michelson placard theory into the dumper. Your find makes some sense if nobody at Reno mentioned the placard being gone. They did a pretty thorough inspection of that plane including removing seats etc. I cant be sure but I dont recall anything being said about a placard being gone or torn off … Geoff Gray interviewed several former Reno agents who were part of the plane inspection and I dont recall anyone told Geoff about the placard being noticed missing. You might talk to Gray about this. It’s always good to interview actual people vs. making up theories out of thin air like the Ulis Michelson team does.
To the contrary. No one can seriously believe that the placard discovered actually dislodged from another 727 in the area during flight (even though it’s presumably flying with its airstairs locked in place), or, that it dislodged from N467US during testing (which means it would have to have been flying with its airstairs deployed over the area). This is silly.
Since they are not in the aviation field it’s doubtful they would of known it even exited. the FBI would be the last to notice something missing on the plane that wasn’t obvious.
The people to speak with would be the one’s that did the testing..Anderson, for one. I believe some have past away.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC’s decision to ask the authorities for parachutes versus using his own equipment.
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This is a cool site that my friend told me about. Eric is really something. Hope you hurry up and solve this mystery so you can go and work on the JFK case next.
That’s a very interesting comment because JFK is someone I have spent a lot of time studying as well over the decades. I have visited Dealey Plaza many times and have spent time in Boston at his birthplace and library, and Hyannis Port on Cape Cod.
No need for me to solve the JFK case, the Warren Commission already did that. Simply put, I believe the Warren Commission got it right.
A pragmatic answer, Mr. Ulis. I studied the JFK case too. And have been to Dealey Plaza, as well as the School Book Depository. I went on a tour of the sniper nest on the corner window of the 6th floor and the first thing I noticed was how low the window was to the floor. There wasn’t enough distance between the floor and the window frame to steady the Manlicher, meaning that the shooter would have to use his own body to steady the shot. No tripod was found either. With a moving target at approximately 11 mph moving away from you, this becomes a difficult shot. The rifle barrel has to continually be lowered on the aim. Oswald could have been very lucky that day. And he did bring the rifle to the TSBD on that day. But the sequence of shots is very odd, especially since there was a bullet hole in the windshield of Kennedy’s car. The SS had the windshield replaced the next day. Why? Also, there were reports of bullet fragments in the curb ahead of the motorcade. This being stated as factual evidence, likely four shots were fired, not three. This is problematic to the Warren Commission Report which concludes three shots. So, the mystery remains.
Now here’s another one for you: Kennedy is killed on November 22nd. Oswald is killed on November 24th. DB Cooper hijacks on November 24th, seven years later. Cooper requests $200K. Troop strength in VN War was increased by 200K in 1966. Cooper had a grudge. If Cooper was a military man from VN War era and had a grudge about his VN experience, would he hijack a plane partly for money, partly for political statement? Or, did Cooper know something about the JFK assassination and dare the authorities to capture him, lest he spill the beans about the true nature of the military involvement in JFK assasination?
I have more to share, but I’ll let you nibble on that for your next big bite.
Now there’s a can of worms just opened. No one knew Cooper and he was never known to anyone. Never found. What if he was in on the Kennedy assassination, but never got paid? A military asset for a military coup de’ ta. This is his grudge. This is his payment. No worries about the FBI b/c he has one of the biggest secrets in the 20th century that he could expose if necessary. FBI backed down quickly. Coded messages to the newspapers. APO = US military address overseas. Money found at Tina Bar another coded message by Cooper to the FBI. Wasn’t Oswald a Marine stationed in Japan, and did some time in the brig in early 60’s. Hurry up Ulis and get this thing wrapped up. We are counting on you.
I’m very practical and straight-forward when it comes to analyzing these situations. That said, conjecture is required given that so many pieces of the puzzle are missing.
Symmetry exists everywhere. Therefore, I read little into such coincidences. An example would be with the number 36 in the DB Cooper mystery. The jet had 36 passengers, on the normally 36-minute flight to Seattle, eventually departing Seattle at 7:36, after which Cooper jumped 36 minutes later. Oh, and the next cluster of FBI files will be batch 36, which all started when Larry Carr opened up heretofore sealed info to the public after, you got it, 36 years.
And, 36 + 36 = 72, which is the year McCoy hijacked. See, ya already got the case half wrapped up.
minus one would be 71…1971 🙂
The facts just don’t support an alternate flightpath.
You have to dismiss the chase pilots, ATC, FBI, Air Force radar, Boeing and NorthWest. All based on (now) two questionable assumptions.
1.) Assumption – WIND. Some (Eric) still don’t understand or choose to ignore the fact that the wind was assumed, it was an average of Portland and Salem over time, 8-9PM. It wasn’t a fact, it was an assumption. Originally winds from the W were used then re-valuated to SSW. Data close to 8PM much CLOSER to the placard find than Portland indicates the winds were actually S (Toledo) or SSE (Sea-Tac) IN LINE WITH THE FLIGHTPATH. All data indicated that winds were the same direction through elevations but increased in speed at elevation. The winds in the area were actually ESE at 8 PM shifting to S and then SSW.
“Information available to Portland indicates the wind believed to be in effect in the drop zone area at the time the hijacker parachuted was coming from the southwest. If that is the case and the Northwest engineers who computed the location of the drop zone and the prime line along which UNSUB presumedly fell were using southwest wind information, then the calculations of the location of the drop zone may not be accurate. A shift of wind from the west to the south would push to the east end of the prime line to the north in a counter-clockwise direction. It could cause previously unsearched territory to the west of the drop zone to be included in a new amended drop zone.”
FBI part 20 page 6197-6198
8:00 PM – Toledo, Washington: Measured 3,000 feet overcast, 12 miles visibility, very light rain showers, temperature 42, wind south 5 knots. Rain began 7:35 p.m.
9:00 PM – Toledo, Washington: 3,000 scattered measured, 3,400 overcast, 12 miles visibility, temperature 42, wind south 6 knots. Rain ended at 8:05 p.m.
FBI part 22 page 6547
8:00 PM – Sea-Tac. Visibility 7 miles; clouds 700 ‘ft., scattered; estimated, 2,500 ft., overcast. Wind SSE @10 knots with light rain wnich began at 7:12 PM.
2.) Assumption – PLACARD is from Cooper.
“We took the Cooper plane up after the hijacking and simulated a drop by a parachutist,’’ he said.. “We noticed the decal was missing after that but not before.”
This is problematic.. the “emergency Release” was an uncommon option to some 727-100 passenger planes. Not on cargo planes or 727-200’s. The placard would have been attached to a small emergency release access door or possibly attached above that door. The problem is the placard clearly had 5 rivets/screws attaching it, most were decals. That placard was probably affixed to the removable access door as depicted in diagrams but possibly attached to the wall above. I haven’t been able to confirm that exact placard on any 727. I found one emergency release decal for a 727 but it stated “VENTRAL” airstiar not “AFT” and a little smaller, many planes had AFT AIRSTAIRS.. (side door) it is possible that placard isn’t even from a 727.
The placard shows tears where the rivets/screws would be holding it, that means there would be remains of the placard still held by those rivets/screws. There are only two possibilities, the access door and placard left the plane or the placard was torn and left the plane. This is important, the FBI never noticed any placard missing from the plane.. they didn’t notice a missing door or the remnants that would have been under the rivets/screws if attached to the wall. One of these conditions would have been readily apparent. They noticed the placard missing after simulating a parachute drop. Further, Boeing did inflight aft airstair testing in 1964/65.
If the emergency access door was missing, it would have been noticed, if the placard was affixed to wall part of it would remain trapped under rivets/screws and also be noticed.
Conclusion, the Placard most likely didn’t come from Cooper.
Further and more important, the WIND…. the FBI estimated the winds for Cooper’s LZ based on Portland, data suggests it was SSE to S near 8PM and that spins the Cooper LZ search area more NW.
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Cooper likely chose that flight because it was very short with less chance of air marshals and a light passenger load..
There is zero connection to Boeing. A Boeing employee hijacking right near Boeing is not confirmation, it is a rejection of that assumption..
Hahneman hijacked his 727 in PA he jumped in Honduras, your assumption is busted.
There is no way Cooper makes the demand to fly nonstop to Mexico knowing that it was unachievable and would be rejected. He made that demand believing it was possible and that suggests his initial plan was to jump south of the US border. He wasn’t dressed for a PNW jump in that weather. Cooper jumped were he did to avoid the risk of landing in Reno. It wasn’t his initial plan.
Cooper was an aviator but he wasn’t a 727 expert. He got basic things wrong.
FBI file #36 is just posted,, haven’t reviewed it yet..
https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/d.b.-cooper-part-36-of-36/view
dead url ? nothing there.
works, click on pdf title.. and BOOM… magic
looks like some new transcript stuff… from 7:37 to Reno
Looks like the official report of the release of the air to ground transcripts. they were sent on Dec. 30, 1971.
more detailed at the end I believe…
they are the same…
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Another fascinating post. Thanks, Eric.
Couple quick questions:
1. How did you determine that Cooper’s black tie (JC Penny) was manufactured in 1963/64? Weren’t those black ties used by the US Army during that period?
2. You stated that only three people were DNA tested. Are you sure? Mr. Blevins said that the Christianson family also submitted. As for a DNA conclusion, the FBI said nothing regarding your suspect. What’s your basis then, for you interpreting that to mean your suspect is a viable candidate? The FBI stated that the DNA tests on the Cooper case were unreliable.
3. Did you submit your suspect’s fingerprints? Results?
4. Does your suspect have a military resume? DD-214?
Thanks, Eric.
1. He didn’t, I did it over 2 years ago using the unique tie clip patent and logo timeframe.
http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/db-cooper/clues-documents-and-evidence-about-the-case/1335/?
2. He doesn’t understand the difference between mitochondrial and nuclear DNA. The DNA can only rule out a suspect. A DNA match is meaningless as the population is too large.
Thin straight haired, blue eyed SP isn’t swarthy, latin or Mexican in features or appearance… and a suntan is tough to get at the end of November even in Nepal.
Thank you, Mr. FLYJACK. Appreciate that. As to #2, from what i read previously, it was actually epithelial DNA from recovered skin cells on the tie clip. I’m hoping to hear from Eric on the other questions posed.
Superb research, FLY. You did this back in 2017. Can you check to see if “Snapper” produced snap-on ties for Army dress in the mid-60’s? Your contributions to this case are not going unnoticed.
Marla, of course FLYJACK is wrong about the first point regarding the tie’s manufacture. For him to suggest that I lifted his work is ridiculous. He should re-read his posts.
I determined the tie was manufactured in 1963 or 1964 based upon two things. First, the JC Penney logo–not the Towncraft logo–and the patent related to the tie clip mechanism. The JC Penny logo went into use in 1963. The tie clip mechanism had an updated patent filed in 1965 if I recall correctly. Ultimately I determined the tie was manufactured in 1963 or 1964, likely 1963, by a company called Remington (which is still in business) in North Carolina.
Second, apparently FLY is not very bright because he keeps suggesting that I don’t understand the difference between mitochondrial and nuclear DNA. Furthermore, that I don’t understand the limitations of the partial DNA profile. Both, of course, baseless accusations that are frankly insulting.
Well, I understand the DNA quite well. The partial DNA profile was gleaned from a saliva sample, even though there were two other epithelial DNA donors as well. We do not know how strong the sample is–although I have asked the FBI to no avail. Nonetheless, we can deduce by the very fact that the FBI traveled to Sheridan to get a DNA sample and administered a comparison that it’s not worthless. Moreover, the DNA sample used to compare LD Cooper was not from LD himself, I believe it was from his daughter. The point being, the profile has to be of reasonable strength to rely upon a “non-principal” donor.
I have heard nothing to indicate that anyone other than the three mentioned were compared. Others have submitted samples, but the FBI has not been interested in comparing these samples, in part, because the DNA comparison alone proves nothing. There has to be other evidence too.
Fingerprints were also collected and submitted from Sheridan. No word on any results.
Sheridan was in the Marines during WW2. In fact, he mustered in San Diego on two separate occasions which I’ve considered interesting because due west of San Diego is a Marine Air Base in Yuma. You may recall I have pondered Cooper’s familiarity with Yuma–i.e., the Marines or Boeing.
May I say that the Daily DB Cooper Bite doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface concerning Sheridan Peterson as DBC. Case in point, when the FBI interviewed Sheridan in 2003 they told him that they think he was DB Cooper. Sheridan also demonstrated knowledge about the parachutes used by Cooper that he has yet to explain.
FLY and some others would have you believe that Sheridan couldn’t possibly be DB Cooper. Well, I can tell you that I’ve talked quite extensively with the agent who interviewed him twice in 2003 and can say that her opinion is more in line with my opinion as far as Sheridan as DB Cooper is concerned. We’ll just leave it at that.
Eric,
Where did you get that tie info? It is a helluva coincidence.
From Shutter’s forum or somebody else?
I did send the exact info to others in 2017,, the funky P is in the image as well.
details..
From: ……………… (FLYJACK)
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 7:25 AM
To: ……………….
Subject: Evidence that the Cooper tie was manufactured around 1964-1965 making it 6 years old not 1-3
Clue and update,
The Cooper tie was actually around 6 years old, manufactured around 1965 +/-. This means it was purchased 1964-1966 and used for a longer period than thought.
The logo on the primary Towncraft tie label used the funky “P”. That style label was used from 1964+. This is not new news.
What is new is the timeframe for the unique secondary label. The “SNAPPER” label with a single patent. Both unique labels only existed 1964-1965.
The secondary label “Snapper” had a single patent on it, 2972750 filed in 1959. (Note, the Cooper tie was misaligned and missing the last 0). That “Snapper” label changed in late 1965/66 to add two entirely different later patents. So, the Cooper tie with both those labels was manufactured in a very narrow window around 1965 and very hard to find examples of.
For about 35 Towncraft tie samples that I found online all have the later dual patent numbers due to a much longer manufacture window 1966+.
I also found that the Patent label on the Cooper tie is trimmed or misaligned cutting off the last number in the patent and the exclamation mark at the end of “ITS A SNAP TO SNAP ON!”. Since the left side looks offset as well, it appears to be a manufacturing flaw with the entire label offset. I finally found a full label identical to the Cooper tie. Turns out the patent was filed 1959 and issued 1961.. All the other ties with the same TOWNCRAFT label had two completely different patents filed 1965. Also, these ties are mass produced as “Snapper” by France Neckwear CO. NY, they produced “Snapper” ties all over the world and just added store branding labels, including Sears..
So, the Cooper TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ and the unique patent number is 1959-1965 (late)..
This is the patent number on the Cooper tie, 2972750 but missing the last 0 as the label is either trimmed, altered or misaligned in the manufacturing process.
Cooper tie patent..
Click to access 2972750.pdf
The later TOWNCRAFT ties have late 1965 patent#s 3220015 and 3222684
Click to access 3220015.pdf
Click to access 3222684.pdf
Dating the primary label for 1964+, the “P” was redesigned by New York design firm Peter Schladermundt Associates in 1963.
(IMAGE FUNKY P and labels)
top left – sample matching Cooper tie with single patent number to 1965
bottom left – sample 1966+ Towncraft snapper with dual patents 1966+
top right – you can see the “snapper” label underneath is offset, can see the IT on bottom line and the 5 patent digit, missing last 0..
Thank you Eric. You mentioned a saliva sample. Would that have also been taken off of the Cooper tie? FBI only publicly stated that it was “skin cells” from the tie clip. How did you hear about “saliva?”
If Sheridan was in WW2, he would have been 18 in 1944. This is plausible. Can you obtain his DD-214 to confirm?
Per 727, most pilots and the commercial airlines flying that plane did not know that the ventral stairs could be opened in flight. Southern Air Transport knew and their pilot operators. Cooper didn’t know for sure, but assumed so based on possible discussions with SAT operators. This is why he asked for airstairs to remain open upon take-off. He did not want to risk imprisonment on the 727. I’m not sure that a Boeing engineer who knew the 727 would make such a request to lower stairs prior to departure, if he truly knew the aircraft’s capabilities.
Lastly, good work on the Cooper tie. FLY’s post on January 2017 suggests the tie was “manufactured” in NY by SNAPPER. According to FLY, that product manufacturer made ties for Towncraft, a JC Penny line. Question: did they also have the contract to make black ties for the US military? Or did the military purchase in bulk from JC Penney.
FLYJACK, jump in here if you want. Both you guys are good researchers.
Finally, back to the tie.
FJ was researching the tie publicly before Ulis even existed in any Cooper forum. Thats just a fact. Whatever Ulis was doing and wherever it was, it wasn’t on any Cooper forum known to this community. Ulis came out of thin air! Maybe he was working at Penny’s ?
I agree that FLY and EU are making great contributions. Thank you gentlemen. Keep up the fine debate.
EU: you mentioned that SA Frye(sp?) talked with you about DNA in 2003. That was more than 15 years ago. Many advancements have been made since then. Here is the timeline of NORJAK case agents since 2003.
SA Eric Mueller 2004-2006.t
SA Larry Carr 2007-2010
SA. Curtis Eng 2011-2016
Did you talk to any of these agents after 2003?
It was the clipon hardware that was a “SNAPPER” brand with the patent number on the tie made by France Neckwear CO. NY. The “SNAPPER” brand and label was used on many ties for different brands..
The entire tie was made/assembled for Penny’s by Remington Apparel “”RN 16484”..
The takeaway is the tie was made around 1964/65.. 6+ years before NORJAK and plenty of time and environments to collect various particles.. The FBI thought it was few years old from asking a Pennys employee.
I don’t know the various military branch requirements for the use ties. Remington made lots of cheap ties under many different labels.
Another thing is the manufacturing process for “100% Dacron Polyester” uses many of the particles found on the tie including yttrium. The tie was saturated with stuff and likely never washed. Some of those particles may have been on the tie from new.
As always, great work on the tie mystery. The metallurgical particles on the tie really dont interest me. That study is a red herring and confuses the underlying issues. Was the tie a military stock tie? Polyester. An internet search shows that exact type of tie was standard issue in the 1960’s for military active duty. Army. Same width. Keep going, FLY. You are getting warmer.
Eric!? Eric of Portland? Where have you been? Long time. You called me ten years ago about the Cooper case. What’s all of this Arizona stuff? Are you still a mailman at Portland? You have come up in the Cooper world since we last talked.
I can verify this guy we knew as Eric has been at this a long long time. He was only known to us as Erick of Portland. So you now have a suspect? Has it all come together for you? How’s the day job.
Interesting comments here.
To begin, I am not “Eric of Portland.” Apparently there was another Eric looking into this back then. My research started in earnest about 10 years ago but I was not involved in the Cooper community at all during this time other than some outreach to Tom Kaye.
I did not speak with FBI agent Fryar in 2003. That is the year she interviewed Sheridan. I started speaking with Fryar last year after I identified Sheridan as a strong suspect according to my research.
Again, my approach to the case involved a four point plan:
1) Ascertain the facts.
2) Study the new evidence from the 2008 and 2017 tie analysis.
3) Create a suspect profile–this included a psychological profile.
4) Look for a suspect in the FBI files based upon the profile I created because I believed the “real” DB Cooper was already known to the FBI–they just hadn’t built a prosecuteable case.
The tie manufacture date was 1963 or 1964. The “Snapper” contraption incorporated into Cooper’s tie was updated by a 1965 patent. If you look at pictures of Cooper’s tie in FBI custody it has a brass knob that protrudes towards the neck. This is the portion of the contraption that was modified with the updated patent so as to be flush with the tie knot and less intrusive. Remington did not manufacture the tie in 1965 or any date thereafter using the old “bulging knob” contraption.
There were multiple versions of the “Towncraft” logo. Perhaps this is where FLY is making the mistake.
Contrary to Eric’s assumption, the reason 1963 is extremely unlikely is that the funky “P” logo was launched “ironically” on November 24 1963.. it is extremely unlikely SP got the tie in 1963. Eric’s self serving assumption will no doubt undergo another goal seeking contortion.
The timeframe for patent dating, filing, granting, production to sale is imprecise, the best we can say is around 1964/1965…
http://brandingsource.blogspot.com/2013/11/penneys-1963.html
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Awesome,, let’s summarize the logic.
FACT – Cooper money was found on TBAR.
Conclusion – Cooper took the rest of the loot to Switzerland to deposit in a bank (numbered account) as there is no other likely explanation.
You two guys can argue (EU and FLY) until the cows come running home. Fact is, you have both contributed greatly to the case. And people are watching and taking note of your research. Great job, gentlemen.
ps. Eric, do you know exactly where on the tie the saliva sample came from? Cooper drool?
I don’t argue, I defend.
I challenge anyone to come up with a single time when I didn’t like something someone theorized about and then used that opportunity to rush to the internet to make a snarky and inaccurate comment. I don’t do those kinds of things.
That said, I occasionally snap back when someone attacks me personally or unfairly. Even then there are times when I let things slide.
I am intellectually honest about my work. I offer credit where credit is due when it’s due. Case in point, a few episodes back I acknowledged the contributions of several Cooper sleuths over the years, including a few who have attacked me personally–Georger, Snowmman and FLYJACK come to mind.
Marla, the saliva sample came from just below the knot on the tie as I understand it. Geoffrey Gray may have been the first one to report on this. The belief is that this is likely Cooper’s saliva given that it is easy to visualize how this happens, i.e., while eating, drinking, or smoking.
In closing, let me say that I am having a good time with all of this. Why engage in the case if it doesn’t provide joy at some level? Therefore, it is unfortunate when on occasion some seek to rain on the parade of others. The real challenge comes in deciding when to just roll with it, or defend oneself.
Cheers!
Liar..
EU wrote..
“Finally, to answer FLY’s question on TMN: Yes, the placard drifted to close to where the FBI’s Flight Path is pegged. It’s not coincidence, it’s fact. It is what it is. In fact, it would have been much more coincidental–and harder to believe–if this 1/3 of an ounce piece of plastic fell straight to the ground from nearly 2 miles up with virtually no drift at all in a 31 knot wind. Remember, according to all of the data available, including the stuff Tom Kaye provided a couple of weeks back, the winds were in the 31 knot range from about 215 degrees. Simply inventing your own weather in that one spot is not going to change the truth of the matter. Such arguments are intellectually bankrupt.”
You got the drift calcs completely wrong and ignore far more accurate data which I posted, but more importantly you ignore the wind data which I have pointed out several times. The FBI used an estimate/assumption which is contradicted by closer wind data. The irony, you claim the FBI got the flightpath wrong with lots of evidence for but you accept the FBI wind data which is an assumption with no evidence.
You are inventing data.. not me.
Then, you call me intellectually bankrupt.. you are a fraud, a grifter a self serving goal seeker. You aren’t interested in the truth.. or any discourse that doesn’t fit your pre-determined narrative.
SP stands or falls on his own merit, you are noise.
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Yes, the FBI has become an obstructionist element in the DB Cooper case. Well said, Eric.
BTW: There are Internet problems at the DB Cooper Forum. I emailed Shutter to see what is cookin’ over there and he said he’s working on it. “Never saw that kind of problem before,” he says.
Whatever it is, I’m just seeing a blank screen.
Another great bite of spokesmanship for the case, Eric. Dont let your detractors get you distracted from your work. You forgot to mention Sluggo, who inventoried a great body of work on Cooper. Also, Larry Carr is no hero. He was an egotistical agent in search of self-glory and fame and hoping to become 50% of the case lore. He entered the DropZone as CKRET, looking for a break. He was taken off of the case because his involvement created unwanted controversy as to how the FBI provided access to their files. Carr was sent far away in 2010. Agent Eng stated the case was forever unsolveable, and that’s why it ended. As for the particles on the tie……meaningless. It doesn’t prove anything, unless you are trying personally to pigeonhole a particular suspect, which is what FLY is accusing you of doing. FLY is no dummy. Anyway, CHEERS.
Carr was a mixed bag. As for access, he was quite exclusive and selective. He ONLY gave access to Geoffrey Gray, Tom Kaye, Alan Stone, and Abracadabra. I WAS NOT invited to the party, nor was any other journalist.
Worse, GG won’t tell me how and why he got invited.
Also, Carr did recruit Tom Kaye and his crew. He asked Georger, first, though, to head up the CS.
There were others who had interactions with Carr. Georger and company are not the only ones. The Citizen Sleuths produced nothing, unless you believe the theory that a Korean freighter snagged Cooper’s money pouch at the mouth of the Lewis River and drug it up stream 12 miles to Tina’s Bar. This, the FBI’s theory, was touted on a National Geographic documentary. It was so hilarious that the FBI had to shake off more embarrassment. Complaints rolled in and Carr got shipped off to WA DC. Yep, the OTHER Washington. Bruce is correct. FBI clusterfu*ked the case under Carr. Sluggo got frustrated with the entire thing. Georger got canned from DropZone a few times. DropZone dropped out. Tom Kaye still doesn’t have any science degrees or professional licenses. But he might have Abracadabra. All suspects have been eliminated or discounted. The Mountain News still employs Bruce Smith. And Eric Ulis has taken over the case. All is good in Cooperland.
Although Larry Carr was no saint, he did make some remarkable contributions. First, he joined the DZ chat room and provided authoritative evidence and commentary. Sure, half of it was incorrect, but at least he got the ball rolling – besides, at the time we didn’t know how messed up the FBI records-keeping actually was – nor did Larry!!!.
Plus, he talked extensively about the tie, and that was mostly new stuff.
He gets full credit for the CS, too. Without Carr there would be no Citizen Sleuths.
The very important contribution that Larry Carr made to NORJAK was opening up the case to the public. When all is said and done it may lead to the case being solved.
I’ve read a few negative comments about Tom Kaye and I must say I strongly disagree. The particle evidence is compelling and cannot be overlooked. In my mind it confirms a Boeing connection, either that or it’s one hell of a coincidence.
We are where we are with the case today. I’ve stated we probably know enough now to solve the case. That said, more access would be a good thing.
nonsense, the tie particles don’t confirm a Boeing connection in any way.
As a few of you know. The DB Cooper Forum is down. according to what I’m finding out is a irrecoverable error occurred. I have to find out how to resolve the code issue.
At the moment, I can’t even access the forum. I’m waiting on help to arrive to help resolve the problem. the error is typical with editing the code or installing a mod. I did nether. it just went down by itself. I’m also waiting on the server to show me the error logs to help troubleshoot the problem.
The spooks know you are getting too close to Cooper… EU is PSYOPS
Good luck.
Thanks, Shut. Sounds like you’ve got your hands full.
Please keep us posted.
Not sure if the oscillations caused the forum to go down or the pressure bump 🙂
Are there any interested takers in keeping the old SLUGGO site active on the internet? Just asking. It would be a shame to see that library of goodies disolved. Shutter? Eric?
I’m in the process of dealing with Sluggo. he is very sick at the moment…
Yes, Shutter and I discussed this earlier today and I believe Shutter has it under control. Obviously we all want to preserve the good work that Sluggo has effected.
Please give Sluggo my best. Healing energies to him. And thanks to you, Shut, for helping the brother.
If anyone needs to be thanked, it would be Georger. He spoke with Sluggo and asked him about the site and got the ball rolling. I just want to make sure it remains the way has been over the years and keep is hard work alive. I don’t wish to intrude on him at the moment. I don’t know the extent of his illness but it doesn’t sound good. we don’t have a lot of time so I will be discussing the matter further with Georger.
In the mean time, we might want to keep Sluggo in our minds to help guide him through what ever it is that is keeping him down. toss the positive in his direction. perhaps Bruce could start a thread in his honor that could be printed and sent to him showing the support he has in the Cooper community.
Shutter
Edit: we don’t have much time is in reference to the website….
Well, my prayers go out to Sluggo. In my opinion, it was Sluggo who got the ball rolling with his research site. Thanks to Georger, Shutter, Uncle Bruce and anyone else who had a hand in preserving those early Cooper treasures.
Sluggo’s whole website was copied long ago, including Robert’s work. That includes all maps, files, photos, etc. So it wont be lost. The only question is where and in what form it will be in for the future, but the future can decide that. Wayne did get the ball rolling. He knows everyone is sending their best wishes. Several people have conveyed that to him.
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Another great bite of the big banana, Eric. FLY will undoubtedly weigh-in. What? No mention of going camping with Sherlick Robert Blevins looking for more evidence fallen from the sky?
btw, your Seahawks shirt is likely to piss off a few of your Cardinal and Raider fans.
Mr. Blevins is pretty upset that nobody backed his little trip of searching in the wrong area 🙂 he’s also mad that I allow Eric to post video’s and not a word mentioned about his camping trip..I told him at least 5 times in a PM on the DZ that he was searching west of the known flight path. a parachute container and the placard would not be in the same area..he got mad and cancelled. no shock there…
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Not bad, EU. Couple of misconceptions about the case that you have correctly raised:
1) aircraft speed over S. Washington closer to 155mph, per Cooper’s request to “slow down.”
2) civilian radar was tracking 305 from SeaTac to Northern Oregon, with precision.
but;
3) US Attorney in W. Washington was NOT prosecuting Cooper case. (Do your research).
Cheers!
The transcripts is what was used in a simulation. at the first part of the flight once they reached 7,000 they leveled off and switched flaps to 30 degree’s to slow the plane down for Cooper. that’s when he first started lowering the stairs. the plane was around 155 to 160 KIAS. flaps were at 30 degree’s for a short period once they found out it would burn more fuel. several minutes later they started the climb to 10,000. once they leveled off the speeds were 170-180 KIAS. this was close to Toledo.
8:10 they report the oscillations and speed of 170 KIAS. temps according to TAT (total air temps) was -7 C.
The discussing of slowing the plane down was early in the flight. the last contact at 8:05 only gave a response and no conversation.
Yes, the speed of the jet was about 200 MPH.
Marla is correct in pointing out that the Assistant US Attorney in Oregon would likely be prosecuting the case given that the John Doe indictment was handed down from a Federal Grand Jury in that district. However, to be clear, the AUSA in Seattle could also file suit given the portion of the crime that took place in that district. In addition, the necessity to be concerned with the statute of limitations is quite debatable.
No. Flt 305 was not at 200mph at bail-out. Interviews with Rataczak and Anderson confirm. 727 at 10K ft. with dirty configuration, ventral open, and icing, required near full throttle to stay at 155mph for jump. This is why witnesses in Clark County heard noisy jet at 10K feet. And, why air force jets broke away from chase, and why Iroquois could not keep up with 305. Do more research.
The fuel flow rate tells a different story as to amount of throttle. the icing was not a big issue. the crew was “slightly concerned”
The conversation was early in the flight with slowing the plane down while at 7,000. Coopers last words were at 8:05 that’s miles before the 8:10 location and further south to the 8:11-12 location they believe he bailed. the plane was not at 155 KIAS during any part of the flight around Ariel, or south. he was having trouble with the stairs very early in the flight. minutes into the flight..
Did you or EU interview the 727 pilots or the Iroquois pilot? Were you in the pit watching air speed over south WA? The problem with you and EU is that you are throwing around some misinformation on these Cooper sites. Go interview Andy or Bill, or the Iroquios pilot and get the facts. Go interview the McChord chase plane pilots. Do some original research. Cite sources. Otherwise, FLYJACK is going to eat your lunch every day. And FLYJACK is hungry.
The transcripts were the voice of the pilots. how is that misinformation?
Shutter, are you kidding? Transcripts are between flight crew and ground. NOT real time BETWEEN pilots in the pit while flight is underway. Show me the transcripts that record flight data such as air speed or cabin pressure. Show me the pressure differentials. Is that in the transcripts? Flt 305 crew was not putting that out to ground, ie, not in transcripts. Go interview the crew, Shutter. Rat even popped the gear to slow 305 down. They wanted Cooper gone. You are relying on data, that taken alone, does not tell the whole story. There is much more going on. You and EU dont have the details. That’s why FLYJACK cranks it up with you both. FLY is a detail guy.
Shutter, are you kidding? Transcripts are between flight crew and ground. NOT real time BETWEEN pilots in the pit while flight is underway. Show me the transcripts that record flight data such as air speed or cabin pressure. Show me the pressure differentials. Is that in the transcripts? Flt 305 crew was not putting that out to ground, ie, not in transcripts. Go interview the crew, Shutter. Rat even popped the gear to slow 305 down. They wanted Cooper gone. You are relying on data, that taken alone, does not tell the whole story. There is much more going on. You and EU dont have the details. That’s why FLYJACK cranks it up with you both. FLY is a detail guy.
Two sets of transcripts. one will be about one minute off. the other will be more. the data you are talking about comes from the flight data recorder. it gives the speed, altitude and magnetic heading. the cabin pressure would come from the flight engineers panel and not the FDR. I believe later models had them.
KIAS = Knot-indicated air speed. there is a dozens references of air speed in the transcripts?
The gear was already down. part of Cooper’s demand?
8:10 the pilot reports “we are getting oscillations of the cabin rate indicator” that’s on the engineer’s panel that Anderson is looking at.
Here you will see the cockpit of a 727. jump to 1:15 you will see the cabin rate indicator where Anderson notice the fluctuation on the gauge when Cooper went down the stairs…
.
Ok, not really trying to argue with you, because I really enjoy your great Cooper site. Just saying that there is a lot if information that can be disseminated differently. I’m sure that Northwest and the FBI went over these details hundreds of times and still could not agree on many things.
Thank You..I’m also not going by just the transcripts..I do rely heavily on them though…it’s all good.
Fair enough. Good day!
Oh, one final thing. If you can get the magnetic headings from the flight data recorder, no need for radar plotting to locate flight route. The magnetic headings from the data recorder, when plotted, will show the route.
Magnetic heading will show which direction you are pointed….the data is used to match things like radar data. it did not give longitude and latitude.
If the plane is flying a heading of 180 degree’s due south. it will not determine east or west. it will only supply the direction of the path the plane is flying.
This is the most amazing thing I found while looking for the placard… though the aft door is closed..
727 tour.
https://my.matterport.com/show/?m=rtPb7TAsPC8
Applause!
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the FBI’s decision to close the DB Cooper case unsolved.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DBCooperChannel
or the more likely, the FBI believes Cooper is dead.
Sage radar and Cooper…
“DXXX MXXX Thursday, 2/28/08, 2:12 PM
Controlled 318th FIS F106 aircraft from 1971-1974 at 25th Air Division SAGE, McChord AFB WA. Controlled ACM mission with F4D aircraft from MCAS El Toro. I believe it was the first mission of that type for 25th AD. Was NOT on duty when D.B. Cooper hijacked the 727, but 318th alert birds were ready to deal with any attempt to crash the jet into anything important.
From: Email:
XXXXX@aol.com “
Fly, what have you found in the 302’s concerning the SAGE. I’ve found several but wonder if more are in the 302’s?
Don’t know which ones you have,, maybe you have this one.
PART 13 P 2908
“He wanted us to send him a map showing the flightpath and headings in Washington and Oregon.
I had one of the maps which we obtained from SAGE sent to him by courier on the night of 12/2/71. This was handled by SA_ _____ ”
F 106 and SAGE
https://www.f-106deltadart.com/flightcontrols.htm
Good find, FLY. Also, notice the photo is of a 727-200 model. 100 model had 18 rows of seating. 200 model has 22 rows.
The 727 in that VR tour was the first produced a 727-100 series..
At the Museum of Flight..
http://www.museumofflight.org/aircraft/boeing-727-022
Found this, very interesting account but some errors (assumptions)…
“On the night of 24 November 1971 a man who became known as D. B. Cooper boarded a Northwest Airlines 727 in Portland OR and then demanded $200,000 in cash and five parachutes, ransom money, and crews to open the back door and he parachuted out of the Seattle-bound plane with the ransom money. He was never found, nor was any validated evidence of him. Beginning in ca. 2000 a youth reportedly found scraps of the marked ransom money along the Columbia River near Vancouver WA. Other reports spotted fragments of his parachute; this has been repudiated. The 190th FIS scrambled two armed F-102A interceptors to shadow the hijacked plane, but the hijacker’s cleverness and the nighttime conditions prevented very close observation of the airliner. 190th Pilot Major Gene Winchester recalls the incident and his story in this chapter reveals how carefully planned and executed was ‘Cooper’s Caper’. In October, the 190th alert crews were called on to assist in what has become known as the D B Cooper Affair. Lee Bernasconi was the 190th’s Alert Detachment Commander at the time, and when I asked him about it and who was on alert when it happened, he replied, “Ahh, Winchester … and I can’t remember who else was on that night, Thanksgiving night, or maybe the Friday after Thanksgiving. [Laughing] I was at my home on Cole and Victory, and the phone rings, and two airplanes takeoff. I said, “That’s my alert birds!” My home was at Cole and Victory. I said, “Hey, that’s my alert birds! What’s going on?” They [the night crew in the CAC] said they didn’t know—so that’s about all I knew. And our interceptors got over there and got generally behind him, but they didn’t get there until after he crossed the Columbia River, and I think Cooper was already gone by then. And they followed him for a ways, and finally went in … refueled, and came home. They didn’t have radio contact with the airliner, and… probably stayed two miles back most of the time Gene Winchester remembers that Thanksgiving very well when he and Jack Newland were on alert, and at about 4:50 p.m. “… we got a telephone call saying there was a hijacking taking place, and they were airborne at the time and … they told us to stand by. And then I guess they landed at Seattle first, and picked up the money and four parachutes and … then they went over to Portland and landed again and let some of the passengers off. They called us and said this guy has commandeered the plane, and he’s got the chutes and the money, and he’s at Portland and … ”what we want you to do is be at Portland in the traffic pattern—don’t get too close that you’ll bother him or startle him—but we’ll put you on him in trail’ and they figured he’s going to bail out somewhere and so you just follow him, and don’t get too close to scare him. The thing was, they told us ‘when he bails out the commercial pilot would turn all his lights back on bright flash’, and we would fly a triangle pattern to mark this spot on the radar. That was our briefing. “So Jack Newland and I took off and … watched him take off from Portland and we snuck in to … about a mile in trail—and it was a little difficult, he was only going 150. And he was staying about 10,000 feet.” Recalling his previous cargo plane flying days, Winchester figured “… he’d maintain that altitude and airspeed as a safety factor because if he bailed out at a higher velocity… I had a little trouble keeping flying, so I’d get up on the perch and when I was about to stall, I’d go over and sit on the other side. And the lights never came on—the ‘bright- flash’ signal—when he jumped out. And I was told that he had displayed a weapon and told the crew to shut the cabin door. So they never knew exactly when he bailed out, that’s why they didn’t turn the lights on.” Winchester continues, “So, evidently he went out there, and we had no way of knowing, and we followed that airliner to Reno—Jack and I, it was Thanksgiving evening, I remember that. We were worried about getting home for Thanksgiving dinner! But our briefing was ‘he was going to land at Reno and refuel, and we don’t want you to land on the same base with him’, so we went over to Hamilton, I believe it was, and they would call us when he took off. I watched him land and that back door of that airplane was dragging on the runway and shooting sparks like—you know when you put a knife on the grinder?!It looked like the sparks was going 50 feet in the air! It’s dark, and we probably…. got up there about somewhere around 6 o’clock—it was VFR, it was great—a clear night and we could see other airplanes … and there were a couple F-106s out of McChord, they came down and were available for a while, then they went back. And we asked Maj Gene Winchester ‘What are our instructions?’ They said ‘Well, we don’t know if he’s still on the airplane, or if he went out the back door when it stopped, he might be here, we ‘re going to make a cordon, a perimeter off, and do a ground search… And you go over there and get out of the way and fill up ’cause we think he might be going to Mexico; you might be following him to Mexico And I thought ‘That sounds interesting!’ So we sit over there for, I don’t know, several hours. And then they called us and said ‘you could go home’. We got back here about 7:00 a.m., Jack and I.”1 Winchester had no direct radio contact with the airline crew, only with FAA Controllers. In the darkness and following in-trail at a safe distance, they never saw Cooper leave the airliner. “
Notes on SAGE radar operator
Flyjack gave me me the contact information for a Dave Morgan, who was a SAGE radar operator at McChord AB in 1971, although not on duty on the evening on November 24th. Dave and I spoke today, and although the conversations was delightful, I didn’t learn at lot of new stuff.
Most importantly, Dave told me that the SAGE could only pick up a skydiver if chaff was used to amplify the bounce-back.
He also gave me an interesting military perspective on the Cooper skyjacking. He and many others at McChord were concerned that Cooper might use the airplane as a weapon and fly it into a military installation, or a nuclear reactor, such as at Hanford. He was quite passionate about this possibility, and acknowledged it presaged 9-11 fears by thirty years.
What “new stuff” did you learn? Did you ask him anything about the ability of SAGE to track 305? That seems to be the dominant concern over at the Jughead & Giuliani thread! Radar doesnt see through mountains and bats and feathers and locust plagues … !
Looks like the entire gang is moving over to the new Bruce Smith article on “Sage Radar.” Of course, EU is the first to discover. See you there. Marla.