By Bruce A. Smith
The Mountain News received a report this week that RW Davis, the controversial leader of the New Testament Christian Church, died this week. The NTCC is headquartered in Graham, Washington, and locally the congregation is known as the “church behind the fence.”
The moniker is drawn from the fact that the NTCC has a sprawling campus along the Orting Kapowsin Highway and its many buildings and homes are guarded by a cyclone fence.
Due to the enormous outrage expressed by many of its ex-members towards the NTCC, the Mountain News has conducted research into the church’s practices, and has published numerous personal accounts that include sexual abuse, and psychological manipulation and harassment from the leadership and congregants. ( https://themountainnewswa.net/category/ntcc/ )
The following essay is from a former member named Vivian Rhyne, who is also known as Vivian Lloyd-Owen and Sister Lloyd-Owen. She is also the person who informed the Mountain News of RW Davis’ passing.
This news was confirmed by an announcement posted on the NTCC’s web site, which stated that Pastor Davis died on March 2, 2014.
*********************************************************************
In Remembrance of R.W. Davis and NTCC
The news of Rev. Davis’s passing was neither shocking nor unexpected, yet after a nine year stint with NTCC, I really expected to be confronted with anger, resentment, and bitterness when the inevitable occurred. Instead it has stirred in me a multitude of remembrances and a keen realization of my moral debt to those still enslaved.
In July 1998, I had “Pepsi with the devil.” For the uninitiated, that’s NTCC-speak for thinking or talking with anyone, which includes a spouse, regarding NTCC policies, beliefs, or conduct in anything other than laudatory terms. The straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back and led to even more and varied beverage drinking with the devil happened in my living room with my then-husband, Rev. Lloyd-Owen, as we followed an innocent train of thought through to its inescapable conclusion that public humiliation and the fear of the same is used in large measure by the leadership in NTCC to gain and retain control of the masses. Ding. Ding. Ding. The bell had been rung and could not be un-rung.
We witnessed public humiliation during our last spring conference at the NTCC campground in Missouri. Some man and his wife were shamed and rebuked in front of a large group of people in the tabernacle because the wife was a horse lover and the husband refused to squelch her proclivity. How dare they trifle with horses of all things when there are more important matters to attend to in the work of the lord? They could be praying or soul winning but instead, those sinners, they were attending to a horse. That man needs to get his house in order and bring his wife into submission. And each time someone is publicly humiliated, the brain, whether we like it or not, makes the correlation that you could be the next contestant on “The Pastor Jacks You Up.”
Likewise over time, the brain sees those inconsistencies in spirit, word, and deed which occur in NTCC. The brain knows they are in direct opposition to biblical teaching, to common courtesy, to human decency, to the fruits of the spirit. Excuses were made time and time again for R.W. Davis’s uncharitable treatment of people, his seeming judgementalism, his harshness, his elitism, his flaunting of riches while systematically keeping the sheep poor (well, except for the select few). Yet he was exempt from criticism – remember, no having Pepsi with the devil! – because he was a prophet and had a direct connection with god. Everything is for a purpose and didn’t Paul rebuke the churches in his epistles when necessary? Don’t the means, though wholly unchristian, justify the ends?
When Davis, from the pulpit or lectern, remarked disparagingly about the sub-par coffee he was served at some preacher’s house or the sorry excuse for a pie which he was subjected to over at another brother’s home… Is that right? Is that charitable? Is that how you teach your children to behave when they are guests at someone’s home? And if it weren’t for the fact that Davis was the founder and leader of NTCC, it would probably be nothing to be concerned about. One person lacking in common decency and manners is no big deal and should even be expected within a group. This dynamic changes when the person in question has created and defined NTCC or as Rev. Olson used to say in Practical Theology class, “New Testament Christian Church is Rev. Davis.” Shit rolls downhill, friends, and when the leadership is lacking the followers take that as cue to act the very same way (or worse) whether consciously or subconsciously. It is inevitable.
Now, having said that, having laid the foundation for why I took my leave of NTCC, having stood up straight and shaken the myriad straws off my back in order to examine each one, what did I find? I found questions, many still unanswered. For instance, why are so many of the women in NTCC, even in the upper levels of leadership, obese? Do women who are happy and fulfilled, imbued with the Holy Ghost and living the truth of the bible, generally eat themselves into the large lady’s section at Macy’s? Why was cash the only form of currency accepted for payment of tithes, tuition, and other offerings at the bible seminary? (Hint: In the real world that means no paper trail and no accountability.) Why are those who leave vilified, demonized, and said to have left the work of god because they want to live in sin? That was clearly not the case with me. Why so much secrecy? Honesty is so much easier. What is there to hide? Why were ministers retained who had a history of adultery? (Hint: They were money earners and/or married to a board member’s daughter.) Why is the organization set up as a corporation? The questions are endless and each person must answer them for their own self.
What’s next for NTCC now that R.W. Davis, who is NTCC, has gone the way of all flesh? Will the foundation which has already been lain, that of control, devaluing of women, secrecy, gossip, disregard for human decency, religious superiority, judgementalism, public humiliation, materialism, emulation of those in power, etc., be built upon or will that foundation be destroyed and another built on true Christian love and grace? Personally, I doubt anything will change dramatically. No one in leadership has had the resolve to stand up and elicit change thus far when as board members they should have done so for the well being of the congregants and a clear conscience toward god. I stood up and left when I realized I could neither change NTCC nor be responsible for bringing anyone into that Orwellian nightmare that masquerades as a holiness church. The question is: What will you do?
Vivian Rhyne, aka Vivian Lloyd-Owen, aka Sister Lloyd-Owen
The Mountain News - WA 
Good article. I can’t say that I really have any emotion as to the passing of RW Davis. I’m not going to say that he is “Burning in Hell” right now, as that kind of judgement is reserved for God himself. I suspect that there will be a concerted effort on the part of the hierarchy to modernize the church and make it more modern and try and distance themselves from some of the things that have been said by him in the past. They can start by not treating us like a bunch of idiots and owning up to many of the abuses of both trust and power and then later on pretending that nothing ever happened in the first place. That would be a good place to start.
“They can start by not treating us like a bunch of idiots…”
I cannot speak for the church culture, Mark, but the bible seminary culture was assuredly one in which the adults were stripped of their autonomy and choices that should have been left to individual discretion were usurped by the leadership. When an individual leaves, they have to start making decisions anew. There aren’t pat answers for every situation anymore. It can be a scary place. It takes a fair amount of courage and tenacity to pick up the pieces of one’s life and start over.
It wasn’t the same man that we knew as the one we knew was in his late 70s when we knew him in the 70s and 80s. That is a relief to me and my husband as we are a rather good judge of character of people. I will check out the picture.
I don’t know if Mr. Davis’ age, but if he is the man that we met years ago, he was a very godly man, humble, caring and taught pure Bible teaching. I always take reports like the above with a grain of salt, as unhappy people, in every walk of life, when disgruntled about something tend to blow it out of proportion. My husband attended the church for 3 years and found it to be sound, friendly, inspiring services. I visited several times and although people were welcoming and friendly, I didn’t feel comfortable having short hair and wearing a pant suit among the long hair, no makeup and long dresses. I am not criticizing that form of dress, many church groups follow that tradition, but for me it wasn’t comfortable. My perspective only and I hope that the incidences reported above were isolated and corrected.
Dear Claudia, as someone who was once a strong proponent of both Davis and his Church and who aggressively defended him….I can tell you now that I’m out….that people who are NOT disgruntled about something and who are defending it can also blow the good out of proportion as well. Sometimes, I think, we do it to convince ourselves (primarily) more than anyone else of the good. ( I was involved for over 17 years and was quite intimate with many who were in leadership….and I lived on the campus as well). Please don’t be so quick to judge people who are not speaking from a disgruntled point of view or who are making reference to a few isolated incidents……this thing is big. If you are not aware….then I encourage you to make yourself aware by researching the history of this man and his group. Thank you so much.
Thank you Bruce for posting this! For Vivian, I’m not sure if we knew each other but I too want nothing more than to help others from the grasp of the brainwashed reigns of this puppet mastery masquerade. Please feel free to contact me at mommakat01@yahoo.com. I still live in WA, I’m not sure where you live.
For Claudia, he was 85 when he passed. He appeared to teach true bible but he was truly a hypocrite. He was a true do what I say and not what I do person. There are many stories that have finally come out against him of sexual abuse and other forms of abuse. Sadly they were suppressed by fear and from having everyone turned against them, having their names slandered so no one would believe them any way, that these people didn’t speak up until recently. Over the past few years finally someone found a strength to use their voice. This began others finally stepping forward. And about your feeling of those who write against them, its not done of a bitter heart or an apostate mind as they would have you believe! Many who blog have better relationships with God now that they have left then before they left. Leaving brings true freedom to worship a God of love, not control or manipulation. The true desire of many who do blog is to get the truth exposed and to save others the pain of going there, and to help others escape.
I don’t see any positive change coming as this newest power in command always appeared to love lambasting from behind the pulpit. I think the power of publicly demeaning others gave him a feeling of untouchable power.
Hey Kat….it’s been a long time. Well said.
I did email you btw. Maybe check your junk box.
I was a member of the New Testament Christian Churches of America for about 13 years and knew R.W. Davis the whole time. During my tenure in the NTCC I lived in Servicemen’s Homes which were mini cult compounds, run much like the ‘Church’ behind the fence in Graham and closely supervised by R.W. Davis. The Servicemen’s home directors were extensions of Davis and the directors of these homes and were governed by strict rules. During my 13 years I was subjected to and witnessed many types of abuse. I had three ‘Pastors’ who used their office and abused their positions of trust by manipulating young GI’s to gratify themselves sexually through same-sex massage and inappropriate touching. They twisted scriptures to justify their lust saying “unto the pure, all things are pure” Titus 1:15. Shortly after this, the wife of one of these Pastors was caught cheating on him with a ‘brother’ that lived in the home; and the minister and his wife were removed from the servicemen’s home, split up and ran off. They were no longer ministers in good standing or part of the NTCC. However this was not always the case.
The ntcc has a history of practicing double standards; and R.W. Davis was an expert at mind control, manipulation and using people as objects to get whatever it was that he wanted. In 1990, I was living in the Servicemen’s Home in Colorado Springs, CO. As a single GI and desperate to be married and have a family, 25 years of age and having been told by several pastors that I could not talk to women that were single members of the church, I was reaching a point in my life where something had to give. Nichelle Tieman had been making sexual advances toward me and at the time it was a huge temptation to commit adultery. I allowed myself to be seduced by her. She would rub up against me in a way that was completely inappropriate and there were a couple times when this led to sexual touching and groping. She also had come to my room one morning when her husband was at work and wanted to come in and lay in the bed with me. I refused this, not because I was so strong; but because she had become so manipulative; and she would say things that would belittle me in front of others. I also met my future wife, Ange, around this time; and she was starting to attend church. We worked together in the Army and spent a lot of time talking; and we were extremely attracted to each other. But Nichelle Tieman convinced Ange that God had called her to go to bible school. We were separated shortly after that and would not get married until twenty years later, when Bruce Smith the editor of this media, encouraged her to contact me. During this time at Colorado Springs, Nichelle kept making sexual advances towards me; but I refused them and eventually called R.W. Davis. He came to Colorado and removed the Tiemans from this church and replaced them. Shortly after this in a conference Davis ‘politicked’ the congregation to vote on a new rule that stated when a person was caught in adultery, the faithful / innocent spouse would NOT be notified. Davis pushed people to vote for this rule so that they would think it was their rule instead of his. That’s how he did things. The Tiemans ended up getting promoted to Overseers in the NTCC and have been travelling around the United States on all expense paid vacations in a Recreational Vehicle, taking up offerings and telling folks how they should live if they want to make heaven their home.
Ange and I got married 3 1/2 years ago and started a blog to warn people about the NTCC and to give them a place to share their stories and testimonies about their time that they spent in the NTCC. Since then many eX-members have shared not only with us, but also on the Mountain News and other sites, how that Davis was a serial adulterer; and we now have multiple witnesses that have confirmed that Davis sexually abused under aged girls. There are four women who have shared stories of different types of abuse that they went through because of Davis; and they all knew each other at the same time. They came forward and shared their testimonies prior to the death of the NTCC’s founder; and they are all willing to share publicly what they went through; because they do not want others to suffer what the same fate. In every occasion when these girls tried to report their abuse to their parents or to other NTCC Board Members these girls were accused of lying and were severely reprimanded by the church and their parents who are still attending the NTCC as life long members. The children were violated against the law; and the abuse was never reported to police by the parents, or the board members who had been made aware of it. The law requires clergy to report allegations of sexual abuse made by children to the police. But ‘Rev.’ Olson, who was Davis’ right hand man, told the parents that they must have three witnesses. In one of the situations a girl was raped by one of Davis’ close associates (Johnny Jordan) and the predator was moved to Washington state while the 15 year old pregnant victim was kicked out of the church in St. Louis, MO and smeared by ‘Rev.’ J. R. Ashmore who was and still is a highly esteemed NTCC Executive Board Member. This took place to hide Davis’ sexual abuse of the victim’s older sister who was married to Johnny Jordan but still a minor according to Missouri state law.
Many eX-members of the NTCC have shared on our blog how they were abused in the NTCC in many different ways. Some have shared their names; and others have shared their stories anonymously. Many that are no longer in the NTCC live in constant fear and are afraid of telling their stories because of the threat of physical harm or public humiliation. Victims of Sex abuse rarely come forward; because they have been taught the lie that the abuse was their own fault. The abusers very rarely take responsibility or admit to any wrong doing. They deny any involvement; and even those who are convicted show no remorse and are a life-long danger to society if released back into the public. R.W. Davis was the leader of this organization; and it was built on his values or lack thereof; and many of the people he surrounded himself with were just as corrupt as he. Although he will never be able to harm another soul, many of the religious cult leaders that love and worship him are still in the position to hurt people. We highly encourage parents who are a part of this organization, not to leave your children alone with anyone. Do not let them out of your sight. If your child reports any type of inappropriate behavior by any of the leaders of this church to you, please report it immediately TO THE POLICE and NOT to the church officials which have a history of harboring the predators while ostracizing the victims.
Obviously Mr. Davis ws not the person that we knew in the 70’s then. I am appalled and sickened by the discriptions above, the Bible says that “God is not mocked” and “whatever one sows, that is what he/she will reap.” What is hidden in darkness will be exposed to all in the light.”
Claudia….you are correct what is hidden in darkness will be exposed to all in the light. Davis was a evil man that had others willing to be just as evil as him and worse.
I don’t know where people get this stuff.
I went to these churches for years and found that although overbearing most of the clergy and congregation were good people who did what they thought was Gods will. As for Davis I’ve heard him preach and certainly don’t believe he ever would have physically abused people. Was he a nice guy. That’s a matter of opinion I guess. I feel like a lot of what’s posted here is sour grapes.
If you didn’t like the doctrine and left you did the right thing. It’s over
Don, I’m not sure if we have met though your wife looks familiar. I attended the bs (bible seminary) from 1992-1994 and my total involvement was from 1989-1998. I came to this website through a Google search after I heard of Davis’ death and was taken aback by the whole Fontenot thing. Before the advent of the internet NTCC could hide but now… Is it any wonder why personal computers and internet were banned for a time behind the fence.
Hi Vivian,
I was in the cult from 1983 to 1996, while Ange was in from 90 to 99. You might have known her as Angela Barden for she was married to Eric Barden for several years. Back when we were in the cult, Computers, TV, and many activities were not allowed. Now most of the members have Facebook pages, Twitter accounts and they list their favorite movies, their favorite “worldly music”, pictures of church picnics, boating events, fishing events, playing football in shorts and sweats, mixed bathing and recently they have erected volleyball nets at the The National Campground. I’m sure that whatever remnants of outward “holiness” that at one time defined them as God fearing Christians will soon be distant memories. It appears the days of profiting off of these strict standards have come to an end with Davis as he once prophesied that: “All holiness organizations compromise after 40 years. I’m sure Kekel will find a way to profit off of the masses by increasing the numbers. Even with all of the scandals that are confronting the NTCC, they can increase their membership by convincing the masses that God has changed His mind about the way they dress. Whatever, I’m sure that God will never change His mind about the mandatory tithe requirement that comes with an ultimatum of spending eternity in the lake of fire. That rule will not soon change, but people will continue to follow blindly as their wallets are emptied out at the altar of sacrifice accompanied by the promise of blessings that never seem to materialize.
If any minister told people to gratify themselves touch on other brothers. I can assure you the reverend Davis would not have approved. This group is more against sex out of wedlock in any form than anyone I’ve ever met.
I’m sure there will be some back lash for what I have to say…but growing up a preachers daughter in this organization/cult…I can’t say that I am sorry to hear R.W. Davis had died. My family and I were with the church for sometime and I can personally attest to what Ms. Vivian Rhyne had accounted for and much more. Examples for how I and many other young women…and I mean young…as in 12-16 were groomed to become preachers wives. Our fantasies for older men were played upon and encouraged when anyone with a sense of decency would have put a stop to it and helped us acquire other daydreams that were more suited to a pubescent girl. The public humiliations by Davis himself if we weren’t modest enough, Or if we seemed to have an attitude..because God forbid we were ever on our periods and had cramps. The humiliation and the everyday pressures put upon me, my family, and other families in the church caused strife and rifts that were condemned…they turned the church into a rat race…I lost friends and people I cared about over greed and ladder climbing that was thrown in our faces from the church and it’s hierarchy. I can’t be sad about this….maybe the church will change…I doubt it. I sat through many a sermon with Micheal Kekel an so forth…spouting about how when ‘ R.W. Davis Is Gone…Nothing Will Change..The Church Shall Remain The Same ‘. I just hope that this will help give some of the precious people in there…that still have a soul to ‘ save ‘ will leave. To the members there, I have to say this:
Be free…the solitude that you find away from the church is not from the devil. It’s the growth from within starting. Don’t be afraid…if you have questions…ask them…and if they shun you for your hungry mind….then there will be your answer….life is bigger than Graham, Washington and it’s fences that hide the true sins of NTCC. I was able to leave…and lead a much more fulfilling life than I had ever before. I know you can too if you so choose.
~Jessi Ford
I am so sorry, Jessi. What you wrote is so true, “Be free…the solitude that you find away from the church is not from the devil. It’s the growth from within starting.”
One of the things I am most thankful for is that I left when my daughter was 6. She had as normal of a childhood as we could muster as her dad and I tried to sort out our lives.
Beautifully put Jessi. Diana and I were just sitting here reading what you wrote. We are so proud of how well you express yourself. I didn’t want to read any of the comments posted before I wrote because I wanted to write from my own mind and heart……but had I read your comment before I wrote…I would have just said……”What Jessi said”. 😉
Jessi I totally understand what you mean about grooming young girls to become preacher wives. They marry off those very young girls to older men. I was one of those girls married off young for I also grew – up in NTCC. What you wrote says exactly how they are in NTCC. I am so glad you got out and have been able to live a fulfilling life.
Claudia, “the incidences reported above” are endemic and longstanding, and had you continued to attend this “church,” you would have gone beyond discomfort and graduated from the fake love-bombing to be informed (not gently and in public) that you are a hell-bound Jezebel for your rebellious face-painting, hair-bobbing, pants-wearing ways–I saw it happen dozens of times. These practices aren’t considered “tradition,” but vital salvation issues (although wives of the “leaders” were observed hypocritically engaging in some of them). It should be noted that the more raw and shocking aspects of this cultish group are carefully concealed from those who haven’t committed themselves to the ministry. Did you know he claimed to be an apostle? To have heard the audible voice of God? To have seen angels? As for “pure Bible teaching,” do you mean the one that asserts the thief on the cross went straight to hell? That’s pure Davis doctrine, right from the source. Too bad he didn’t believe in deathbed repentance, because he needed some. He was a liar and a charlatan.
Yes, he could come across as “godly, humble, and caring” when it suited his rapacious agenda, since no one could possibly be lured by his genuine narcissistic and cruel personality. For sixteen years I observed his ways up close, and eventually no amount of denial could obscure his nature. Don’t blow off the thousands of anguished testimonies of damage this evil man did to sincere families, and insult them by proposing that they are merely unhappy and disgruntled people spinning tales. Sure, they were justifiably unhappy and disgruntled (as any normal person receiving such treatment would be), but they didn’t have to invent anything. Just be glad your husband never got “the call.” The moment I escaped that place was one of the most joyful ones in my life, and although I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, the world just became a better place.
“And there are also many other abusive things which Davis did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen”
I would never imply that these things vever happened, I said ” hope they were isolated and corrected.” Obviously, sadly this is not the case. How old was Mr. Davis when he died???? There are wolves in sheep’s clothing throughout leadership positions in our country these days (not only in this church) and that is very sad.
I believe he was 85. I was first exposed to him at the fake bible college in St. Louis when he was in his early 50s, before he moved the operation to the Northwest. It is unfortunate that your hopes were unfounded, because he had a great opportunity to help many people who loved him in spite of his abusive nature. It was a real waste, but he loved mammon more than people, so they got thrown under the bus.
Also to be counted among the honorable mention about R’Dub is the fact that he claimed to have 2 doctorate degrees, both of which were proven to be absolutely bogus. Also, “I can’t remember the last time I sinned” bloviations!
Vic, you worked with Fontenot at the print shop, right? Did he seem off to you or squirrely in any way at that time?
Claudia, it’s amazing really what is allowed to go on at NTCC. Of course it’s not the only church with some dirty laundry – look at the Catholics. Why is it when there is a religion that devalues and represses women and/or has strict rules regarding male and female interaction and sex do heinous sexual acts often come to the fore? If a person believes in god then isn’t it safe to say that god himself made man and his desires whether for food, warmth, oxygen, sex, companionship are not also placed there by the very same god? There’s no shame in any of these things. When it leeches into the realm of leadership taking advantage of their position to secure sexual acts or a minor being violated, that’s an entirely different story. That is not two consenting adults. That is not mutuality.
Rodger Wilson Davis was 85 years old when he passed away Sunday, March 2, 2014. We were told that he had two stents implanted during surgery last summer, from which he never fully recovered, not eating, and succumbing to pneumonia, dying at home ~ 2 A.M.
Our web site has several photos of Davis, including on the left sidebar of the Home page. If one visits from a mobile device, click on the “View Web Version” link in order to see the pictures. Sadly, we believe, this is doubtless the same man known by Claudia Branham.
I helped Fontenot get a job where I worked at Valley Press. Then I left the org and he shortly quit (with no notice) to work full time for the org in their print shop. He seemed like an OK guy, but then I was easily duped by false professors back then. Never got any pedophile vibes from him, but I guess the successful ones don’t put many out.
As always Vic…..well written and to the point.
No successful ones don’t always put out vibes yet they are sometimes the sickest pedophiles.
I was an active member, and ordained minister in good standing in this church for 30 years. I witnessed much of the abuse, and intimidation referenced by the postings of many former members of this group first hand.
Recently the testimony of three young women, raised in this group, has been published, additional allegations have been made by more woman who suffered similar sexual abuse, but they are reluctant to come forward for fear of reprisal, and or current membership in this group.
Their abuse occurred in various states, and by various ministers of this group. At the time, the accusations were taken to the current senior pastor and CEO, Michael C. Kekel, COB Joseph H. Olson, and other current members of the board(s) of directors, as well as family members. Their accusations were dismissed with no investigation, and with little or no repercussions or consequences to the perpetrators of these crimes, and no report to police or CPS was made.
Pam, Lisa, and Julie were sexually abused, raped, and suffered physical, spiritual, and emotional abuse over an extended period of time. All of these victims have suffered in silence for many years, having been shunned by the church and their families. Most of the average clergy, and members of church had no idea that this conduct was even possible much less perpetrated upon these girls, by their leaders.
These three women made credible accusations of sexual misconduct by Roger W Davis, James R. Ashmore, and Ralph Saint Clair, of rape, and Michael C. Kekel of voyeurism, and corporal punishment with a sexual nature. Their testimony included names, time frames, and places, with corroborating information from reliable sources.
The families of these young woman conspired with this conduct, and turning a blind eye to the witnesses of their daughters, refused to believe them. These women were ridiculed publicly and privately, slandered, and finally excommunicated. These actions are disgusting and completely detestable by any normal standards of decency, much less by officers of the clergy, and highly esteemed members of the church.
As a splinter group of the “holiness movement,” this church was founded under the Missouri Statutes as a non-profit corporation 355, and the IRS 501c3. The Missouri Statutes require that the boards of directors be replaced for conduct such as these allegations, hiding sexual misconduct, misappropriation of funds, malfeasance, and all other related activities . Examples of corruption are clearly seen on the Pierce County Wa. real estate website, gifting of 40 acres of prime real estate from the COB to the CEO without the knowledge, or consent of the congregation(s), gifting of real estate, financing of properties with church resources, purchases and sales to and from board members, and friends of the board, avoiding sales, excise taxes, and market rates are corrupt, and demand criminal, and civil action against these extortionists.
These leaders have used the first amendment of the US Constitution to hide their questionable practices for decades.
Former members of these groups have reported to governmental agencies such as the IRS, States Attorney Generals, Secretaries of States, Prosecuting Attorneys, and Sheriffs departments, but have failed to bring criminal proceedings, or change the practices of this group. The statutes of limitations for the three women have expired in the various states where these alleged crimes took place. News media has been contacted as well. Presently, only the Mountain News, and several blogs have reported this activity.
I call upon the current members, and body of the congregations of this church to call for a vote to remove the Board(s) of Directors and all the leadership of these churches and replace them with Godly and humble leaders that will be accountable to the congregations, and to God. The original vote to install RW Davis as the CEO, of the corporation, was fraudulently presented to the congregation, and was never intended to be perpetual, and with no accountability to the membership of the church.
These leaders live in castles, live extravagant lifestyles, and have no accountability to the congregation(s) which they are supposedly serving. These people serve themselves, and their families. The congregation(s) should demand that they be replaced.
Both of these church corporation(s) IRS status as 501c3 charitable institution(s) should be revoked, and the pecuniary profit and personal gain of these individuals should be forfeited back to the church, for its intended use.
The IRS, the States Attorneys General(s), the Secretary of State(s), of Missouri, Washington, and other States, have an interest in holding these leaders accountable to the founding documents of the organization that states that they are to be a non-profit organizations. The private inurement doctrine is another private benefit rule applicable to public charities. The doctrine comes directly from the language of section 501 of the Internal Revenue Code that only organizations “no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual” may be exempt under section 501(c)(3). A 501(c)(3) organization that violates the private inurement doctrine fails to be operated exclusively for one or more exempt purposes and is subject to revocation of its exempt status.
Preface:
I spoke with Don and Ange about publishing my trials while growing up in the ntcc, because I felt like a lot of people would not believe it. Due to the lack of education I received as a child growing up in the ntcc, I sometimes make mistakes when writing and also don’t always complete every sentence perfect. Don and Ange helped me write this first paragraph only, as a preface to my testimony because they had noticed on their blog that in a story called Hidden Secrets that I said…. “Though this was the only time he, (Davis), strayed from spanking and the touching only, I will never never forget that day.” I meant that this was the only time that I was forced to have sexual intercourse with Davis, other times involved oral sex and other sexual deeds to include the spankings and touching. If I was forced to do anything sexual besides intercourse with Davis, I consider it to be sex and rape. There have been people that have contacted me and they have called me a liar, others have threatened me. All I can say is that it happened to me and it’s all true. I tried to report it but nobody would listen. I still remember things that I have forgotten long ago and sometimes when I’m writing things will come up in my memory. So many things happened so many times and to survive, I have suppressed many of these memories. I can understand why some people might think that this is too much to happen to one person, but I ask that before you discount my life story that you would try to put yourself in my shoes as if this actually happened to you or your child. In a group where children have no say or no contact with anyone except other group members and where if the Pastor says the sky is green, then the sky must be green even if their eyes see it is blue, many things were hidden and lied about. There are many others that I know of that were also abused as children, some of which have already come forward and others are still not ready. For the sake of all victims past and present I am determined to share what happened to me as a child growing up in the NTCC. I have a lot more to write of others that have violated me but this story is mostly about Davis.
Part 1
My name is Julie St. Clair – Ridgeway. Yes for those that didn’t know Joan and Ralph St.Clair do have a daughter though they like to pretend I don’t exist to some. I am sure they would like to pretend I am not alive for fear of all the sexual actions they committed against me that R.W. Davis knowingly covered up. One moment Davis would blame me for Ralph’s actions and in the next breath call me a liar. Joan had her share in sexual acts against me but Davis had me believe it was just normal discipline to a child.
I was born with cerebral palsy and came into the NTCC at age 2. I was told Davis said some insulting remarks about me when he first met Joan and I, he didn’t like the fact that I was being allowed to crawl around the Tillicum servicemen’s home. He said I looked ridiculous seeing I was way too old for it. I didn’t walk well yet since I was delayed. My disability was explained to Davis but he didn’t want to hear it.
I was supposed to be partially healed of cerebral palsy by being prayed for by Davis. When I was a teen idiot Ashmore prayed for me and I was told my hand grew. I actually believed that lie for a long time. I had to hide my disability because Joan and Ralph were ashamed that I had no faith as well as well as sin in my heart. My disability has always been there
.
I fell a lot as a child. I remember the ill treatment I received my Davis the insults about being retarded, feeble-minded, dumb, a whore, a slut, and so on.
I received many whippings from many different men, including Davis. He would a lot of the times when spanking me do sexual things to me. Ralph and Joan didn’t feel he was in the wrong and I deserved everything he did to me. They didn’t care about me in the least never have and never will. They liked Davis so much.
Davis never cared about all the sexual stuff Ralph St. Clair did to me for Davis was having his way with me as well.
I still remember finding Davis secret TV. I found Davis’ TV in St. Louis back in let’s see 79 or 80 but yet he left his last church since they decided to let in the devil-vision. Hmmmm
I was playing hide in go seek in Davis’ house when I found it. Yes it was hooked up. You should have seen Davis trying to explain that and yes I got in trouble for finding it. This was one of my many bare butt whippings from Davis. I had many whippings from him the first time I lived in St.Louis Missouri.
I moved to Texas in 81. I remember Davis coming through and being scared of him. The first time he came through we were in the first home which had a converted garage. This is the place where we held the insulting sessions. Davis came and that night he said he wanted to talk to me. I told him I had to go to bed. He told me what he said is over what Joan and Ralph (parents) that night he explained the chain of command. It was Davis, then Ralph, and then Joan. He was saying this to a seven year old child. He told me that he had the right to change any rules Ralph and Joan gave me. Davis and I were in the converted garage. Every at this young of an age I had low-esteem. Ralph didn’t even stop or question him about pulling me aside in that room nor when he decided he would be putting me to bed himself. He also did sexual stuff to me that night in my bedroom. This I believe started me hating the bedroom even unto this very day. It was no longer a good place.
Part 2
Davis continued he many spankings and sexual every chance when he was around me. He used every excuse possible.
One time he came through Fort Hood Texas and I was very sick and had been sick for a few weeks. Joan and I both knew I had tonsillitis because I had it before. Davis didn’t offer any help just keep praying. He didn’t offer any money or anything. I think the only thing that saved me was a military doctor got wind how sick I was and he came to see me even paid so I could get medicine. This man didn’t claim to be a Christian but for 14 days straight he came to check on me until he was sure I was okay. After I got well Davis was angry that I had used up so much ministry time. Once again he drilled it in my head I was a bother to life. He hated that he didn’t know how to get rid of the retarded handicap freak.
My disability made Davis look bad for it made all his healing stories look foolish. They would tell me I was healed but when it would be obvious I was still disabled it was I had sin in my life. So this would say God gave me the healing but keep taking it back. Boy what a yo-yo mess. I used to wonder every time they prayed why nothing changed. He made me feel like a worthless piece of trash for years. The degrading way he treated me made me believe I shouldn’t expect others to treat me any better either.
Davis didn’t allow anyone to have friends so I had no clue what a friend was except someone that hurt me, abused me, wiped their feet on me, and used me. I had no idea what it meant to be loved at all. Davis didn’t love me and neither did my parents.
Ralph St. Clair had sexual relations with me starting at 7 but sex started at 9 years old and on. Davis along with others were made aware of this on many occasions but wouldn’t do anything about it at all even with firsthand knowledge. I found out last year that it reached a point where Ralph St Clair feared I was going to report it years back. I knew so little about the world around me I didn’t know to report it. Davis wanting to make sure no one would say he did nothing he took away Ralph St. Clair’s license for 6 months. So a pervert loses his license for 6 months and that is supposed to change a pervert. Davis allowed a known pervert to stay in the pulpit. Davis labeled me a liar though he would go back and forth with it was my fault I made Ralph fall for me to I am a liar. Joan said it was my fault he wanted my body but what I could expect Joan made me rub her bare butt and spank her when I was child. She made me fill all her sexual fantasies.
Part 3
When I was about eleven Davis had his RV was parked by where I lived at that time. I was told Davis wanted to see me. I went to the RV and was surprised to find him alone. Usually his wife would be there as well. He asked me if I told Ralph about my wrong to Davis the other day. I said no. He decided I was going to get a spanking. I laid a crossed his lap. He pulled my underwear off this time. He spanked me. Then he ripped my clothes off me. Then unlike the previous times we had intercourse. I was terrified. He ripped me and I bleed.
Davis seemed to think just whip the retarded girl and she will forget all she saw and all experienced. It doesn’t work that way. Children grow up and they don’t forget.
Well some things never changed like the fact Davis lying and being dumb enough to brag about his lies. When I was a child I was present for two different conversations where Davis was confronted about his degrees. Now I don’t care what degrees anyone has but what I do care about is people that lie instead of being truthful. Though I had seen others bring it up these two conversations had a different outcome.
The first conversation was between a father of a bible school student and Davis. The father came up to Davis saying, “Sir I have a question for you. My sons says that you as the leader of the organization have two PhD which qualifies you to be in charge. I just curious where you got both of them. I like learning and always like hearing where other people have picked up their degrees.
Now this would sound like a pretty simple question not an attack at all. Well Davis immediately got upset. He said he didn’t tolerate being questioned about his degrees and it wasn’t the place of anyone to question about his degrees and it wasn’t the place of anyone to question where he got them. Davis seem to have forgotten he wasn’t talking to a man he was already controlling.
Things turned pretty ugly. The man told Davis if you are afraid to tell me where you received your degrees it makes me question if they are even real. Davis got really heated. This man then said “You can tell or I can find out for myself because these type of things can’t be kept a secret.” By this time Davis looked like a steamboat with smoke coming out his nose and ears though the smoke may have been a sign of fire thee as well. The man continued to press. Davis finally admitted the first was from a bible school nothing fancy and the other was given as an honor degree it wasn’t something he earned. At this point he looked at me. My mouth had dropped for the thought went through my head…..Does this mean Davis had not told the truth before?
Part 4
That night I asked Ralph (father) why Davis’ answer was different from what he had said before. Why did he change when the man questioned him? His response was to call me by my full name and tell me no one is to question what the Man of God says or does because he has been put in place he has for he does only right before God. T remember lying in bed that night wondering why Davis had different rules from everyone else. I thought maybe I was too dumb to understand deep things like this.
A couple of days or so later I was at Davis’ house. I hated that place and hated his bedroom even more. He told me I needed to come with him to the bedroom. I thought is only two reasons I go to his bedroom that is to either be a whipping or sexual dealings. I followed him and we went into the bedroom. He made me strip from the waist down and go over the bed and his lap as I was a big child at this point. (In my teens)
He then told me I have to punish you for calling me a liar. I do not sin and you must pay for telling others I do. Ralph St. Clair had told him I had called him a liar)
He began to beat until I was black/blue and very sore. It took me over a week before I could sit without being reminded of that pain. He told me to stand up and then he got in my face telling me if I ever questioned his authority that God had given him; it would be far worse. He said little girls like you find themselves in hell for you cannot be allowed in heaven acting like this. I knew far worse was sexual things because he knew I hated sexual stuff with him more than being beaten. To think that day he made me think he controlled whether someone was in hell or heaven.
The second conversation about his degrees was between him and a relative. That one didn’t end well either. At the end this man shook his head and said Have it your way but mark my word you can’t live a lie forever.
As Joan St. Clair (mother) who was their seamstress was in another part of the house doing some sewing I sat there in silence taking all this in my mind. I didn’t want to sit there because I knew from last time I was going to pay for what my ears heard that day. And people use to say I was so lucky to get the privilege to spend so much time at the Man of God’s house.
A few days later like clockwork I was brought before Davis as Joan St. Clair was over their house. He took me to his bedroom. He told me that man had be confused about his schooling. Davis told me that He had never lied and had never sinned and unlike other people he never had to ask God to forgive him because he had never sinned in his life.
He then said I must pay for the fact that I didn’t leave the room during this private conversation. What??? I was told to sit there by Joan St.Clair (mother); he never said to leave the room and go find Joan once.
Part 5
He then pulled down his pants making me use my mouth to bring him pleasure. Yuck!!! This was such a disgusting experience. I began to spit right on the floor and before I gave much thought to the fact I was talking aloud; I said that tasted worse than any other man. I had oral sex before on many occasions so this was not the first time for me. I grabbed my mouth at that point knowing I was wrong and in trouble. He swatted me a few times but he didn’t seem in the mood at that point to beat me as was common. He told me I better not tell anyone of my shameful ways and what happened in that bedroom or I wouldn’t be around for long. I wondered if that would mean death because I knew Ralph St.Clair wouldn’t leave the group.
Davis got dress and told me to clean up and come out. I will let your parents know will be out in a few minutes. Yes my parents were in the house.
I told Joan what had happened later that only got me in more trouble. Joan and Ralph were doing things to me so I don’t think they cared that others were having their pleasures meant through me.
Davis and I had so many sexual dealings over my life I don’t have enough fingers to count the times.
Education was another thing Davis stopped in my life. I remember writing the ”This is I” paper. I paid dearly for mine. With little education writing was a big struggle for me. I was brought before Davis, Kekel and a few others. I had personally thought they had done away with this paper but I guess not. What I wrote really didn’t make sense at all but I had tried to write how I felt about my life. It seemed like every time I might expose Davis and his group or I might have caught him red handed in a lie it was humiliation in front of others, screaming, private beatings and sexual dealings. It was like to him to do all this would take the memories from me but that never worked. I was Davis’ convent sex toy and pushing bag.
What I wrote seem to be the wrong answer. Why these people ask for one thing but yet want another thing is ludicrous and totally crazy.
Davis began the meeting raising his voice at me insulting my intelligence. Then began to say how dare I make a mockery out of this class and that I was still a child that he could whip with his rod. Like always there was a chuckle from Kekel and the faithful person with that evil laugh. So they tell me I am adult able to marry but a child when they want to whip me. People they can’t have it both ways. Davis did later have his way with me privately. I was married yet he thought he was above talking to anyone about what he was doing to me.
Part 6
It wasn’t my fault I had issues with writing; I was a product proving what and who they really are truly. They thought keep her dumb so the truth will never be found out.
Another one of the many occasions of me being in trouble while in bible school was over my notes. As I shared writing was difficult I could barely read and write. One class I was just having a lot of issues with notes so I typed the required pages typing only letters not words. I paid dearly for that too. Davis was always finding excuse to beat me, have sex with me or both.
One of the last times I attended a conference in Graham Washington. Joan St. Clair was asked to come to the Davis’ by his wife. I was asked to come by Joan but asking with her was never asking because I knew I had to come. We got to the house just like back when I was a child I got left in the living room to wait on them. I thought why I was asked to come if I am going to be just left to wait. I wanted to be with my son and Donny at that moment. I am not sure if he was already in the house for I was lost in thought at that moment but all of sudden Davis appeared out of nowhere. He grabbed me and said we were going to the bedroom. He took off his pants made me give him pleasure by mouth. I hated that I had been made to do this. I was so embarrassed and ashamed. I didn’t know how to stop this. Davis had built such a distrust in my marriage. I had no idea what the true job of a police were at this time. I had no idea what a court was or even what judges were at this time. I didn’t know who to turn to for he had labeled me a liar. Joan St.Clair knew what had happened yet did nothing not even comfort her own daughter. I to go back to my little family like nothing was wrong at all with the plastic smile. I was raped over and over by Davis. The man who said he couldn’t remember the last time he had sinned.
We are sure he can remember his sins very clearly now.
Julie, we’ve known each other for over 22 years. Why am I learning about most of this online? I cannot believe you didn’t call me and have some talk therapy. Now, I don’t want to blame the victim here but you’ve never known me to be anything other than I appear to be so there should be no fear. We need to talk. I’ll give you my phone number on Facebook and we should schedule a time to chat. Love you!
I can believe it.
Julie, we are very thankful for the sacrifice you made and we believe that you have started a chain reaction that is going to cost the ntcc more than they have ever had to pay. Anyone in their right mind that reads your writings and those of Lisa and Pam, definitely have a lot to consider. It is not easy to go public when crimes of this nature are committed against you. What Ralph and Joan did to you is beyond cruel and they should have been placed in prison for the rest of their natural lives. People are serving life sentences for less than what was done to you.
What Davis did to you and Pam was also something that should have landed him in prison for the rest of his life. Because you shared your testimony of the horrific actions you suffered, Lisa also came forward and shared what she went through being raised in the Ntcc. Pam who was disbelieved by many when she came forward years ago had her accounts of Davis validated by her Younger sister and others. Lisa was extremely brave also in sharing what she shared. Her mother has also committed crimes against her children by abusing them and then abandoning them. She should have also gone to prison for a very long time.
Because of Julie and Lisa there are others that are considering coming forward with similar testimonies of child abuse, sexual abuse and rape, that they experienced in the ntcc. The ntcc is having to do some serious damage control. If you are out there and you have been a victim of sex crimes committed against you by Davis, Kekel, Ashmore, any of the board members, any of the Jordans or Fontenot, you have the opportunity to make a huge difference. As painful as it may seem and I know that you can think of a million excuses not to share this publicly, but you have the opportunity to save future victims by adding your voice to those who have already spoken.
They are desperate and they are doing unprecedented things to cover up their tracks. They want these stories to die along with Davis, so they don’t have to answer any more questions. Julie, Pam, Lori and Lisa all grew up and knew of each other in the organization and their accounts of Davis and others are true. There are others out there that are content letting just a few people suffer the shame alone. I’ll tell you this much, It’s going to be much harder now to commit sex crimes against children in the ntcc then it ever was. Many people who do not know these women are clueless to what they really went through and they are being questioned and ostracized by many people. They have sacrificed everything, while others are out there who know enough to shut this church down, but they will not come forward. I would ask any of you out there that read this to help make this sacrifice worthwhile to these women. Don’t leave them alone to continue fighting this battle. Some have shared that they don’t believe everything, but they believe most of it. Even if you believe half of what they say, it’s enough that you should be fighting against the evil and wicked deeds of the ntcc and not the victims that have come forward.
Do you ever wonder why the ntcc does not take any action to counter the allegations leveled against them? Have you ever considered that they might be true and they don’t want this information to be publicized? Put yourself in their shoes, Ntcc’rs and X-ers alike. There is enough public information out in the open right now to sway any court of their guilt. What are they going to say when they are confronted about Fontenot, and how his former wife reported him for raping/molesting his daughter and they harbored him while telling her to take the victim and find another church? What are they going to say when confronted with the question of why they took Ralph St. Clair’s license away for six months? Oh he raped his daughter and rather than reporting it to the police we decided to cover it all up. That will go over very well in a court of law. What are they going to say when asked why they moved Johnny Jordan to Washington, and had Barbara Norton abandon Her 15 year old raped daughter and her disabled son, so they can hide Davis’ sins?
You kidding me? The last thing these hypocrites want to do is to have to face all of these questions publicly. They are having a hard enough time right now convincing their brainwashed followers that this stuff never happened.
If your good name and your Churche’s good name were being drug through the dirt and there was no proof or nobody to validate those claims would you sit back and do nothing? You can only say “The devil is lying” so many times and then it gets old. They are silent because they know that the accounts of child abuse, child sexual abuse, sexual abuse, adultery, physical abuse and everything they have been accused of is true.
They went after others and had their blogs taken down for a lot less, and now they are supposedly allowing people to lie about sexual abuse? I don’t buy it. This stuff is true and they don’t want this information to become public. They don’t want to have to defend themselves in a court of law on this subject because they have always been on the wrong side of it and if this ever goes public or gets statewide or national attention, it will cause a split bigger than a 10.0 earth quake on the San Andreas fault as California breaks off into the ocean.
They are guilty and that’s why they shut up. You know how you can tell? Listen up all you ntcc’rs, because this is the psychology of your leaders. It’s just like Kinson and his pitiful attempt to cover up his trip to the whore house.
“I never slept with anyone other than my wife.” Yeah, right, we believe you Phil.
They very seldom address the sins that were committed, but they discredit the ones who were victimized. They won’t come out and say that Davis never did any of these things, but they will say that Julie and Lisa are liars and that they are of the Devil. They attack the victims but never do anything substantial to exonerate the predators and pedophiles who they hide.
Ask them directly for a yes or no answer and you will become the next person that they trample on. If you were to ask the question: “Did Davis ever commit adultery?”, or “Did Davis ever touch a child inappropriately?”, or “Did Davis ever spank young girls with their underwear pulled down?”, you would not get a “yes” or “no” answer, you would get publicly scorned and humiliated, because they are guilty and that is their way of weaseling out of answering truthfully.
In many cases it is very hard for victims of abuse to come forward. Statistics show that for every one that comes forward, dozens are too scared or find reasons not to. They also show that when one or two come forward, others also cast aside their fears and share their life stories of Abuse. The abuse that Julie endured might be hard to believe for some but it is not unprecedented and to find other children that have been abused sexually, physically and emotionally you have to only look at other cults. A cult is the perfect environment for this to happen. The NTCC has a history of abuse and people are very much afraid of the leadership and any retribution they may receive as a member. I know that people will say, “There’s no way that one person could have gone through all of this”, and they will refuse to believe it. There are a few ingredients that made Julies case so much worse than the average abuse victim. She had both parents that were sexually deviant and abused her. She was raised in a cult as a child and had a disability. The Founder and leader of this cult recognized this and ceased on this as an opportunity. He groomed her and was given full access by the parents as were other GI’s and adults. And finally Davis was one of the greatest manipulators with unparalleled skills in mind control. He had the ability to convince people that they were the ones that were sinning, without anyone so much as questioning him. He used a combination of fear and threats to keep them from talking. Julie actually talked but was punished for it every time and her voice was not heard by the right people.
We encourage those who are still in the NTCC to not let your children out of your site. There are many perverted ministers in the NTCC as it has been a safe haven for them to go unpunished for their sexual abuse of children and shielded from law enforcement by Olson, Kekel and the highest elements of leadership in the NTCC. Davis surrounded himself by people who were loyal enough to cover his sexually deviant behavior and retribution was misdirected toward the victims. The purpose of this cover-up was to hide the sex crimes being committed by Davis and others in his circle. There have been no background checks required for the ministers and clergy who were placed in positions of trust by Davis, and many of the workers that are in positions where they are alone with children were hand picked by the worst predator of all. If you love your children and want them to not have to live with nightmares all of their lives and want them to have some semblance of a normal child hood, please get them out of that group immediately.
Thanks Don and Ange for explain how it is with victims as myself. It is so hard coming out for fear of others reactions to the sick facts of the abuse one has suffered. Support is needed more than ever yet that is not what most of us receive leaving us feeling the need to bottle it up carrying the burden in silence. I am thankful for the support I have been given without I would have never started the journey to healing. Yes it is a journey for one doesn’t get over such things overnight. It takes a lot of time.
Thank you Julie. Your courage to come forward has helped countless other people realize that they were not alone in their suffering. Now they too can begin the journey of healing. It is a process. Like a road that has hills and valleys there are good and bad days; but we strive to move forward. We love how you, by your life, your blog posts, and your private messages, constantly point people to the Lord. Truly His grace is sufficient. Without His love there would be no healing, no moving forward, no life. It’s a mystery to me how He uses our brokenness to minister to others; but it is true. Nobody left the NTCC without scars of some kind. But God and time can heal the wounds.
I have relief now that Davis is gone that no more people will be hurt by him.
I am thankful for all the people who were writing online and in blogs when I left who took the time to validate my feelings and provide legal documents and proof that the leaders in this group don’t actually live by the rules they say the members must live by in order to avoid going to hell.
These people selflessly provided support and information to help me recover from being in a cult and expected nothing in return.
That being said, I want to provide a warning and caution for those who are thinking about leaving or who have left.
I know you want to find a support system and others who will understand, but I am really upset and angered by the author of the column Vivian. I really believe it is morally wrong to pounce upon people who have just left a cult and prod and pressure people into accepting alternative lifestyles now that they have left and to experiment with drugs, alcohol, and open relationships. They have a lot to recover from and need to be left alone to find their own path. I find it extraordinarily selfish and painful to watch.
I think the universal feeling among many who have left is deep regret over their children’s lost childhoods. It is something that can never ever be returned. The most troubling to me are the ones who had two biological parents who were members of NTCC during their entire childhood and never had a chance to experience a normal life. They have nothing to gauge any of their life experiences against except cult life. I would think that anyone with “morals” would give people in this particular scenario respect, room, privacy, and not try and use them or manipulate them.
I would suggest to all these people who were violated and abused, both physically and spiritually, to read the Bible as absorb it, beginning with the Gospel of John. Fill your mind with the word of God and examples of Jesus to purge one’s mind and of the the spirit of evil. Find a church that is scripturally sound and is ‘hospital” for the wounded, there are many and everywhere. The accounts of all those above are not common, thankfully. I have been raised in the church, of various denominations and the undenominational ones, I am 76 years old and have never been exposed to this blasphemy and corruption of what you have experienced. I am truly sorry and sickened by the behavoir of those who polluted the truth of the Bible.
People who actually know me, know the truth about who I am and what I’m about. As for you, Nicole, what you know about me is from 1 or 2 brief phone conversations while I was dating the man you are currently with. I think THAT is your real problem.
I was waiting for things to get dirty after posting something public about NTCC but didn’t think it would come from a) a woman; and b) another ex-member. What you said was heresay; you NEVER had experience with me encouraging you in any of the above mentioned activities nor can you produce anyone who left NTCC and had me pounce on them. I’ve done zero exit interviews with newly freed NTCC people.
Vivian maybe I need to post all the messages you thought were private between my husband Glenn and you. Maybe then you will not call it heresay. You have never had any interest helping anyone who left NTCC and anyone getting mixed up with you will only make their life worse. I am concerned about those who have left and those who will try and leave. Opinions are heresay. I have testimonies from close friends around me and data a relative helped me recover from my computer to back up what I say. When I left NTCC, I started being real. I don’t ignore my gut feelings anymore and I don’t sit and pretend to be one way on the internet and one way in real life. There is a long road to travel to recovery from leaving a cult and I hope many people here can avoid the major pit falls. Always listen to your gut. If something seems wrong… it is.
Vivian Maxon was the first woman upon leaving NTCC to “lecture” me about why men and women should have private relationships with no respect to their spouses or significant others. The one to two phone calls you had with me were to appease Glenn. You wanted to make him happy so you two could continue having a private friendship. I read your message and several others recovered from my computer regarding this and you just thought thought I never saw them.
What I wish to spare other women here from is this exact experience I had. When people leave NTCC they are vulnerable and when someone who left a decade earlier tries to convince you she should be having a private friendship with your husband, that your recovery from a cult is of no matter to them whatsoever and that because you are not from LA or NY you just aren’t smart enough to “get it” then I feel it is my duty to warn other women.
Maybe someone else will read this and realize they are not the only one.
That is why you were expecting this Vivian.
I left NTCC 8 years ago now. I have been following this news feed since R.W.Davis died. I am appauled at some of the stories here. God had a great shield around me and I was totally clueless about most of the stuff posted here, though I never felt quite right in the organization. There were very few people that showed me genuine Christian love in the organization for that I am eternally grateful because those people showed me the love of Jesus and now I am able to love others the same way. Nicole, Bruce and the others who were devestated by their relationship with this organization my words for you is to not let it ruin your life. There is a God in heaven and he is a righteous God and the scripture says he counts it a righteous thing to bring tribulation to those who trouble you. Don’t bring tribulation to each other because of what happened to you, but allow the love of Jesus help you find forgiveness in your heart and trust his love for healing Let the tragadies you endured being a part of NTCC bring you together to support each other not bite and devour each other. There has been enough of your life stolen, now go forward and believe in the faithful God you know to be just and true.
Great article Vivian…to the point and a great reminder that many of us still do feel a profound sense of moral (no quotes)debt to those who are still in. That is the reason many of us got out…because of folks like you and others who wrote on FACTnet and gave many of us who were still in something to FINALLY think about.
When I heard about Davis my mind went to that scene in the livingroom in the Servicemen’s Home in the Philippines when he came for a visit. Sister Blumenthal and Keys labored in the heat of the kitchen of that off-base house which had no air conditioning in the Tropics in preparation for the arrival of the First Man Up Before the Throne of God (according to Kekel in Bible College circa 1994). Sister Keys had the utmost audacity to bake a cake. While all of us were seated around the “Fellowship Table” …Davis sat by himself on a chair in the living room. When asked if he’d like a piece of cake…..He bellowed…..”I don’t like cake; I like pie”. If my mind wasn’t so “pure” at the time; I’m sure I would have whispered under my breath: “What a douche”. He behaved that way the whole time he was there. He was God’s prophet and he didn’t like cake and he liked pie. I”m sure those ladies repented of their sins that night at the altar and I’m not being sarcastic….I’m sure they did. And he, Davis, being the prophet of Almighty God that he claimed he was he had to have his certain kind of instant coffee and only so many teaspoons….no more….no less. I recall the filipino sisters and how they “schooled” the rest of us ladies on how to do it properly so as to not make his Majesty upset…because if it wasn’t done right….he would be. He, as the minister, should have been serving us coffee and he should have been in the kitchen mopping the brow of those ladies who labored in the obscenely awful heat to serve him like he was some sort of Medieval King.
As a relatively new Christian; I found his behavior to be incongruent with anything I ever read in the Bible about the behavior of Jesus Christ and it nagged at me….always. Davis was the antithesis of Christianity and the Ministry he purported to be called “into”. We all knew it, but were afraid to speak it and I have a sneaky suspicion that many of us spent a lot of time repenting at the altar for thinking “unholy” thoughts about the men and women of God in “leadership” of NTCC, but none of us could relate these true feelings until we left.
There are a few self-appointed Judges (men and women who were once a part of NTCC and who have also left) …..who show up when someone is expressing themselves about NTCC online and these self-appointed perfect people tell the rest of us when and for how long and in what manner we are allowed to process and talk about the time we spent in this awful Church organization. I say to Vivian and others on this post…..ignore these Judges. They have become their own little manipulative and coercive and controlling “church”.
I recently stumbled upon the Facebook page of an “elite” member of God’s Special Forces in Graham, WA. I was shocked at the new “culture” of NTCC and it caused me to remember a Saturday morning “soul-winning” meeting in the Big Church which was officiated by Mike Kekel in 2004/05. A young man named Chris Fears and his wife were sitting to my left and facing me. When it came to the point in the meeting where Kekel asked if everyone had a soul-winning partner –“Sister” Fears stood — along with several others. This left Kekel befuddled because her husband was sitting right next to her. Why in the world did she need a partner? Chris had to explain…..in front of everyone….how that he needed to go home to work on his car because it wasn’t working. Kekel upbraided this man to what I thought was a ridiculous degree. I was highly agitated at what I witnessed that morning. Here was a man who had a brand new small baby…..(who needed to be in a car seat)…..and he and his wife had to ask permission to get a ride with another “brother” so as to get back and forth to Church, work, the grocery store, etc. Kekel had the audacity to question this man’s faith and devotion to God as both a Christian and a minister based on the fact that he wanted to go home to take care of his car and in turn take care of his family. It was outrageous and there were those who had the balls to mention it after the meeting. I held my outrage to myself. Kekel wasn’t the one who had to bum rides from others and shuttle his little baby around with a damn car seat, etc. This was NTCC !!! This was Davis !!!
Jump ahead to Now.
If you want a real lesson on how far NTCC has strayed from their original Articles of Faith and “Calling of God”….go take a gander at the Facebook page of Jennifer Conner ….for one. She is donning a baseball cap and promoting herself as a Beach Body Coach…….encouraging her fellow NTCC church family to be involved in the Beach Body programs which include INSANITY, P90X and she also promotes (along with many of her fellow ministers and ministers wives )Les Mills Body Pump (Google it) and other forms of Fitness which rock out to modern music and which have nothing to do with winning souls from the Devil and into the Family of God. I thought NTCC was God’s last great work on this earth? Chris Fears was humiliated in front of everyone for putting his broken down old car before “soul winning’, but this chick Jennifer can hawk her wares and encourages others to buy Shakeology products and other similar activities.
For anyone who was involved in NTCC during the 17 plus years that I was in and before….you would be shocked to see what is going on. Shocked. All I had to do was start reading on Jennifer’s Open-to-the-Public profile and from there I was able to do all sorts of reading on the profiles of many ministers and their families. I’m not sure Vivian if change was “called for” by anyone. The way they do it over there is to just start changing things and they then act as if that has been the policy all along. Sort of like the progression from no TV/DVD’s to computers and DVD’s. Long gone are the days when the Internet was known as the Sinnernet. Long gone are the days when NTCC-ites entered a hotel room and the first thing they did…..for conscious sake, of course, was to turn the TV around …to face the wall. It wasn’t enough to just not turn it on….I guess they were afraid it might turn itself on maybe? They had to do away with the appearance of evil. This was NTCC!!! This was Davis!!!
My first reaction to all of the change is to ask…..”how can those who are still in this church ignore all of these massive massive changes?” I know how (I continue to study the subject of Manipulation) but it’s still the first question which comes to my mind anyway. There are many who feel safe staying. So many of them are like so many of us were at one time…..faced with the realization that they have invested so many years of their life in that place…..only to leave and find out that you basically have to start all over again….from scratch. That part sucks. I won’t deny that, but the great part is in being in control of your own destiny again. That part rocks the roof off the joint! Except of course for those who jump from the NTCC “frying pan” directly into another controlling environment….be it church group or family or new girlfriend or boyfriend. I’ve seen that scenario played out many times since I left NTCC and it’s sad.
Do I give two bits about what Jennifer and her fellow Beach Body Boys and Babes do? Heck no….in fact….it’s a far superior activity to be involved in vs. trying to coerce people through the doors of the church so as to get them to pull out their wallets to support the extravagant lifestyles of the Davis Duo and the Kekels. But for those of us who had to ask permission of Kekel and Davis so that our children could have 1-2 (that was the limit back then) other friends over for a birthday party….(Grant Kekel never had a cap on his parties by the way)….this is outrageous. When I think of how many people were humiliated by Davis in front of congregations of peers and unmercifully in Bible College classes through the years….it makes me sick to my stomach. With the passing of Davis should come (I hope) a time of reflection and of maybe new efforts to reach out to those who are not happy at all in NTCC, but who are just too fearful to speak up or to make the move. After all….things have lightened up, right? They have…and so that begs the question……..so what was the point then of all of those years of Control? If Davis knew and condoned all that is now going on……..then that proves more than anything I could ever say…….what a farce he really was.
By way of background: I was involved in NTCC from the time I was in the Air Force in the Philippines “under” the Ashmores and the Keys and the Blumenthals beginning in Feb/March 1989 and then through Bible College and then through numerous other stints up until the time my “ex” and I took over the Pastor-ship of the church in Newport News, VA . While there we uncovered all sorts of atrocities…..which was our “Aha Moment”…when our eyes were opened and “ding dong” the bell was rung. There was no turning back. But, If what we uncovered weren’t awful enough….it was the response of the “leadership” of NTCC to what we were finding out which shocked us into reality and into our van heading as far away from them as possible.
Our family fled NTCC on January 1, 2006 and we worked diligently to keep an online dialog going for those who were also “seeing the light” in their own special way and in their own special time. As a result of our efforts combined with those of many, many others…..there was a significant exodus from NTCC of both ministers and church members between 2006 and 2008. I enjoyed that time because it enabled me ….and actually forced me …to put everything I believed in during the previous 17 years under extreme scrutiny. It’s still a work in progress….but I have never been happier since leaving that coercive and controlling and hateful and manipulative environment and I know what I believe now and why.
I hope that anyone reading this and who is still on a journey out of NTCC or already out and fumbling or in need of friends who understand…that you will reach out to tender people who will not judge you no matter what your thoughts are and no matter how you choose to express them.
Make a pledge to yourself that you will never again become entangled with a person, a church, or an organization of any sort in which you are coerced away from loved ones and family or away from thinking for yourself. No one…especially a person who doesn’t know you personally….can tell you what is or isn’t healthy for you. Trust your gut and your intuition and believe in yourself and surround yourself with those who encourage you to express yourself without fear of shame and humiliation and who accept you as you are….unconditionally. That was supposed to be Christianity…wasn’t it? Until you entered NTCC and found that everything was conditional.
I hope that as a result of the death of this obscene man named Davis and the obscene organization he built……that men and women will take some time to stop and examine and consider what they are involved in. Give yourself permission to think.
Tracy Pelfrey
tracyann62@gmail.com
Having never been exposed to a cult personally before, I can only grieve over all these reports and replies to my comments and pray that you will all find healing, peace, and forgetfulness of what you endured. I am so thankful that my parents lived by the Bible and pure example of Jesus Christ and brought their children up in the truth.
My first endeavor when I left was to read as much I could about cults and other fringe religious groups. What I came to realize was churches like NTCC are a dime a dozen. They are around everywhere. Most of the time they are fairly small. They profess to believe in the bible and have their own brand of member control mechanisms which includes in some form their right to the exclusive truth/movement of God for today.
And that is so true Tracy about going from the frying pan and into the fryer. My very fist encounter with an ex-NTCC preacher’s wife in Spokane was met with the realization that she was now attending the almost exact same church with a bit different twist. The issue is, just like a woman will jump from one dysfunctional relationship to the next, people do not take the time to understand what exactly has happened to them. They jump to the new church as if being without a church is wrong in and of itself. Just like a person needs time to recover and strengthen themselves and become independent after a relationship break up, people in this church need to do the very same thing. Take a break. Care for yourself. Let time do its work in your life. Think. Read.
Another phenomenon I’ve seen among ex-members is what I term, “being out but not really out”. They are no longer attending the church but they retain NTCC thinking. Fear is still governing their lives. In my opinion, the whole of NTCC thinking must be abandoned for healing to occur. So, you take your life beliefs in a cup, shake it up, pour it out, and individually examine each piece before deciding whether to keep that belief of not. It’s a process and without it, I’m not sure true healing will be achieved.
That’s why you see so many broken and shattered lives of ex-members. NTCC was quick to capitalize on that truth saying when people leave god and the work of god they’re lives fall apart. Yeah they do! Each person who leaves is in need of love and support and many times counseling but that rarely happens. They have left all their friends and church behind and usually have hardly any money and definitely no health insurance to facilitate professional counseling.
Manipulation. Hah! I’m very sensitive to manipulation at this point in my life. My manipulation antenna is up all the time. Personally Tracy, I did not choose to study manipulation but it’s twin brother – control. I didn’t do book studies necessarily but rather examined my life and asked myself the hard questions. What is control? Why would a person want to control another person? What happens when they gain some semblance of control over another person? My personal conclusion was that control (and maybe manipulation as well) is governed by overarching fear on the part of the controller. Fear moves people to control others. That is not who I want to be.
Lots of water has flown under the bridge in both our lives, Tracy. My hope is that we can reconnect. Here’s my email: vrmaxson@outlook.com. I would love to hear from you. .
I have to comment that churches like this are not a dime a dozen, however, wonderful, Bible teaching, Bible believing, feeding the hungry, loving the homeless, caring for the sick, and encouraging the needy are a dime a dozen, they are everywhere.
Claudia, I was not meaning to defame any churches of sound doctrine or practice. When a person gets out of a cult that preaches that they are god’s movement for today it’s a comfort and strength-giving knowledge that there are other churches that teach the same. It paves the way for confidence that you have in fact made the correct decision in leaving which is very important to the healing process and moving on with one’s life.
Davis was always petulant and selfish, as narcissists are. He was both a controller and a manipulator, and I’ve often wondered what it was that made him that way. Was it his dysfunctional “cotton mill hill” upbringing that sounded like something out of Yoknapatawpha County when he talked about it? Or was he just bad seed? Disregarding the catastrophic effects he visited on the lives of others, he’s an interesting character study (herpetology, perhaps?).
We did the frying pan to fire thing to some degree, although each subsequent iteration was progressively less toxic. Finally the time came to revalue all values, a process which continues. It takes diligent effort to recognize and extirpate some of the more subtle thought patterns that “The NTCC Experience” imparts, and being exposed regularly to the agenda of another group doesn’t facilitate objective examination. Fear and guilt are powerful and very difficult to overcome, especially after being part of the psychological furniture (delivered and arranged by others) for so long.
Groups like NTCC are fairly common. I’ve met lots of people who had essentially the same experience that we did, only elsewhere. Same control. Same tactics. Same humiliation. Same fear. Same guilt. All the same mind games. These controllers represent an archetypal character that surfaces from among us like a festering boil, pathogenically infecting us and consuming the sustenance we need to live as we should. It’s an alien thing to me. Since I’ve never wanted to control or be controlled by (although I did fall in that trap) another , it’s hard to imagine having that desire, but it does consume some people.
Davis is gone, but others remain and yet more will spring up in their places when they’re gone. There is no new thing under the sun; the thing that came before will come again. The wheel turns and the same things happen over and over. I remember trembling before him as the words “after tonight, we’re out of here” nervously tumbled from my lips. It was one of the most fearful–yet empowering–moments of my life, and there followed a physical euphoria so strong that I was laughing spontaneously on the ride home. I was so light I felt like I was flying. It took years to get completely deprogrammed, but Davis has been dead to me for some time, though he did leave scars. Now he’s really dead, but his pernicious influence will take a long time to dissipate from the earth. What a sad legacy for someone who exploited the people he could have greatly helped. A real wasted life.
Tracy,
Your last sentence summed it all up! I know many are reading this article and many blogs that have been posted. On Friday, March 7th, there were many that celebrated the life of R. W. Davis. While many that have left have had to deal with “control and trust issues”.
For those that don’t know me, my name is Diana Taylor. I was in that organization from 1976 till 2001. I left after R. W. Davis called my home and asked to speak to my son. My son was 15 at the time. I handed the phone to my son and waited till the conversation was over. My son hung up the phone and asked me “Does God lie mom? I said, NO…he said to me, Well he just did! I asked him what he meant, and he said Rev. Davis said that God told him that I said this and that. I told him, NO God does not lie!”
So how many LIES does it take to make one a false prophet? You answer that question yourself. I don’t have any regrets leaving that church. My only regrets are that there are many good friends I left behind, and that we invested so much of our money and life to build up an organization that does not care about those that have sacrificed so much! While they sit in their luxurious homes, and drive their fancy cars, the missionaries that they have live below poverty on an income set by them!
Wake up people! Control comes in all forms
Sincerely,
Diana (Taylor) Lopez
gracemurc4u@yahoo.com
Diana….thanks so much for reaching out to me privately and for making yourself heard here on this blog.
We already know from massive amounts of experience that many more read the words that are written online about this group than respond and so revisiting this topic often does not fall on deaf ears or blind eyes. I can tell you from the many emails which I often receive on the subject of this church that real people are still dealing with real problems as a result of all levels of contact with these charlatans. There are those who simply appreciate being able to reach out to those of us who have remained willing to let them open up and share their experiences and talk things through and find unconditional friendship and acceptance.
Thanks for being one of those willing people!!!!!
I do not understand why you are bashing Jennifer Conner and referring to your “ex” in quotation marks. You do realize that everyone can read this, right? Davis created a false image for his own selfish desires. Explain the point in leaving if it is all about keeping up false images and lying even this many years later. And since you and Diana read this together, for the record, we do not have The LIfe of Pi paperback here. If you had to cram everything you owned in a duffel bag, that probably wouldn’t be at the top of your list. Let the Tracy, Vivian, Diana show continue…
Hi Nicole, I don’t know you…at least your name does not ring a bell. May I ask why do you seem so angry at Tracy and I? I’m not sure what the Tracy, Vivian, and Diana show means…please explain yourself! I’m sorry but I got tickled by this…lol…please feel free to email me at gracemurc4u@yahoo.com. I am also on facebook…look me up…I would love to chat with you.
Thank you Bruce for posting this article. I personally appreciate it and thank you for posting Vivian’s article and the replies to it as well. We are all dealing with this man’s death in our own way and it’s nice to share some of that openly.
Great articles Vivian, and Tracy! I hope many eyes will be opened, and that there’ll be a mass exodus.
Hey Deb……..
Hoping here for the same……….a mass exodus……..AGAIN! A Mass Exodus Revival….If you will.
I was curious to see what came out about R.W.Davis on his passing. I have to say that I continue to be in shock hearing about some of the tragedies that people endured in NTCC. I thank God that because I was married to a man that had his own battles with salvation and I spent most of the time while I was in Bible School and a part of NTCC protecting and raising my children and that literally kept me in prayer and seeking God in a different direction. That said I married in NTCC church that had been there for years and he did things that I reported to Kekel, Davis and Sinclair and all they ever said was that they had known this man for many years and that he was the same as he has always been. When I talked to Sinclaire before I got married he advised me to pray and wait if I wasn’t sure. I was afraid of being kicked out of the church so I got married and endured four years of verbal abuse. Some of the things I went through are not worthy to compare to what I am reading here. I just thank God that I left when I did instead of sacrificing my children. I will be in continued prayer for the emotional healing of those who have gone through so much in NTCC, continue your journey with the Lord I am proof as are many others that inspite of what you endured he has not left you and wants to do a great work in your life.
All I can say is wow and that everything about this man rw davis that is said is true. Here is our website: denyingthepower.org
Hi Cherrie!
This Is Jessi…I Went To The Website….All I Can Say Is Wow….For What Your Husband Wrote About My Mother…..Wow For How The Pedestal That Is So Great For You To Sit On Now…..Wow, You Who Blamed People For You & Your Husbands Reputation, On Hearsay…I Am Not Ashamed To Say Shame On You….You Never Seen ( Or Maybe You Did ) The Molestation, Verbal, Or Physical Abuse Kurt Hughitt Put Us At The Hands Of Those People…The FIGUEROA’s….How Dare You And Shame On You…For All The False Love Shown And All The Damning Words That Will Prove To Light…..You & Your Husband Are No Better Ma’am….No Better…
Hey Tracy, I noticed you mentioned Jennifer Connor and her workout programs etc… I was at a Tacoma Rainiers game a few summers back, and low and behold guess who I saw in the stands as I was walking up the bleacher stairs? Jim and Jennifer! Not that I really care but I find it extremely hypocritical that NTCC preached against attending organized sporting events because they were “worldly” but sitting right there at the Rainiers game was the right hand lap dog to RW and Mike Kekel himself.
And David not just that…..but how many ministers were put on the hot seat for even desiring to go to a baseball game with their children? How many were threatened with having their Ministers License revoked for such actions? Our children weren’t allowed to play in organized sports and we weren’t allowed to attend these events….after all….the World was Dying and on It’s Way to Hell…..is IT no longer? Is it no longer in need of the LIGHT and the SALT which only the Truth-Holders of NTCC can provide?
Does anyone know if RW Davis wife is still living?
Yes recent pictures of Verna Davis wearing make up and lipstick have been seen on Facebook and on line. Who cares about Makeup and Lipstick? Not too many except the ones that were told that they looked like Jezebel all painted up and that they would burn in hell with the rest of the sinners who used it. Doesn’t matter how many coats of paint you put on an old barn, they preached, it’s still an old barn. They used to call it ‘war paint’ from behind the pulpit. Ear rings were ‘devil stirrups’. The new ntcc seems to be forsaking all of R-dubs so called Holiness standards, starting at the top with Tanya’s tight skirts and blouses that make her look like Jello poured into a Zip-lock baggy. We were all scammed out of our tithe dollars by these religious hucksters that preached certain hell for those who didn’t pay tithe. God robbers is what they call people who don’t contribute to the ntcc leadership’s lifestyle of luxury. They have many nice things, bought and payed for by their faithful church members who seem to live way below the poverty line.
False prophets that’s what they are to my opinion!
I am sorry but I am german and I do not speak english over here only german. My english is not so good!
Karin, Ihr Englisch klingt ziemlich gut zu mir. Fühlen Sie sich trotzdem frei, Ihre Anmerkungen auf Deutsch anzuschlagen, und die Bergnachrichten können einen freien Übersetzungsdienst verwenden, um auf Englisch wiederdahinzueilen, wenn Sie möchten.
For all you Amerikanskis out there, what I told Karin in German is this:
“Karin, your English sounds pretty good to me. Regardless, feel free to post your comments in German and the Mountain News can use a free translation service to re-post in English, if you’d like.”
Thank-you Bruce. Still I would like to post in English. If something important comes to my mind concerning the NTCC!
I really do want to thank Bruce Smith for giving everyone a voice and shining a light on a dysfunctional criminal situation. I was able to talk to him at many critical times such as when Kelly Merz committed murder. I moved my son from his home state away from his dad and unwittingly placed him in a dangerous situation by living in WA state and going to that church. One evening we heard a gunshot from the Merz’s top floor apt above us and then a scream. I thought he had killed his wife. He had accidentally shot off a gun showing it to a family that was visiting. I would never have guessed this would foreshadow such a heinous horrible murder he would end up committing. My son was around this man almost daily for years and other criminals and sex offenders on the Graham NTCC campus.
What if everyone you saw publicly wore a t-shirt telling you their credit score (or fraud and lack there of), background check, and drug test results (the blood test, not the urine one that people brag about being able to cheat at so easily)? What if legal documents and all of this information were available for everyone to see? Or is that only required of those in NTCC? Do we stop questioning and searching for the truth in other situations? I think not. All I can do is advise those who read this to apply the same skepticism of NTCC to each important issue in life. It is only then that you will start living better.
It makes me weep to think about all the things people had to post on here because of the painful, hurtful and appalling emotional trauma that so many said they suffered in their personal experience while attending NTCC. It is abundantly clear to me that the majority of the people posting here, and on other blogs, posted because of fact that they wanted to write of their personal expertness of pain and abuse and not as an attempt to attack “the work of God”. Most only desired to express and alleviate the inner pain of having trusted a group of people who said they came in the name of the Lord but hid the truth of other overall intent or at least it turned out that way in the eyes of many. And while it may, for some, have been great to learn the Bible, study church history and learn of the Christian faith, it seems clear that the majority of former NTCC members seem to express that they didn’t desire to learn these things by negotiating a trade of their life’s livelihood, children’s emotions, family development and finances (for or) in exchange for a willingness to endure emotional abuse and neglect. I marvel today that there are those who will even acknowledge on face value that within NTCC has occurred some or all of these alleged abuses, yet they in turn will berate those who risk saying anything about it here or on any other venue as being an act of revenge. I don’t believe all desire revenge or that all wish to be bitter or retain resentment towards their abusers or accusers, I believe they wish to forgive them while holding accountable them to the standard of truth that NTCC alleges it upholds. I believe that many will be healed from their painful experiences, and unfortunately some will not because the emotional wounds and scars are too deep and have destroyed the souls of more then a few. There are some who may desire revenge, and I pray that they Chose Christ above such, although, one could understand how they came to that place of such a desire (right or not). Forgive them, I do, and I think others do also; I also know that for those that have left NTCC that NTCC will never be given another chance to allegedly do aging to former NTCC member of what they allege that NTCC did to former NTCC members. I also think it is disingenious to deny former NTCC members the right to express or tell others of their experiences they alleged to have experienced at NTCC. What is alleged to have happened is that people lost their friends, family, finances, years of their lives, social standing, economic ability to have in some instances basic living resources, and some even lost their freedom and are incarcerated: Some are alleged to have committed suicide, others were shot with a firearm by law enforcement and some have had their faith forever shipwrecked and have literally turned to idol and devil worship. It is no small thing for some to just “Move-On” as if it is something that is done or accomplished in an instance without serious emotional complications. “Moving-On” is a process that must be accompanied through time, patience, healing and social and emotional support. Being harsh and heavy-handed will not resolve these matters for some if not many. I pray for the people currently attending NTCC and who have formally left NTCC that the Grace of God continue in their lives and that the Lord Jesus Christ makes a way to bring healing, hope, restoration and encouragement to all who need it, that is all who need it within and without the presence of NTCC. I recently read a Facebook post of a certain individual who expressed on the internet his desire that “this bunch would dry up and go away”. It made stop and wonder, if it took the Grace of God to reuse him, where Jesus, even in the case of Judas did not want Judas to die and go to hell, or where Jesus forgave Peter for denying Him thee times, Jesus had compassion on their sins and his, how is it that he as a minister called of God could not express that same for those who he has written-off as of no value to him. I do not seek an answer to this as I already have it, it is simply that it seems to have hypocrisy interlined within such an expression where all it wold take is for the same people who drove others off to drive him off as well, I am sure he would have a change in perspective. May God help those who need healing and help.
Very Very well said. We can’t erase the past pain for those who went through what they did but we can pray that God, the true and living God gives them the healing and forgiveness that they need to go forward in life and proclaim that he is Lord and always will be.
So the truth FINALLY comes out. I thought it was extremely strange to see an article written by Vivian. You severely interfered in my marriage to Glenn and you are attempting to do the same now. I feel very sorry for Mick Lloyd-Owen. Is your current husband aware that you are using this death of a former pastor as an excuse to get back in contact with your ex by trying to use other people? Or have you beaten him down to the point of accepting what your version is of an open relationship where you can still be on the prowl?
It is time to release the strangle hold you have on his children and live your own life. Just because you knew them as infants doesn’t give you the right to use and abuse them now.
I might be the only voice on here screaming for people to protect themselves from the likes of Vivian, but it desperately needs to be said.
I experienced years of suffering and abuse and just a really crappy life and I lost $27,000 in a divorce to an NTCC preacher (Davis’ estate can pay me back at anytime). I have EARNED the right to voice my opinion.
Don’t mistake a person’s kindness for stupidity. The bull stops here.
Wowie Nicole. You must have some unrelieved anger and I would know why, beings that I met Brian, also a pastor in your no see, no speak, no hear lifestyle only once. Thank God. I hope you enjoy his 4 hour showers a day and needing a new towel with each shower. Vivian has been a friend and neighbor of mine for going on 14 years. I, as she, was raised in the church too. Ambiguous behavior of men in power in the name of God, long story short, using the Lord’s name in vain, caused me for a very long time to question my Faith. It wasn’t God that failed me though, it was the “men in power” who were using the Lord’s name in vain who were the problem. Not my Faith in God, but the Men who were using the Lords name in Vain to profit or to get ahead, in God’s name. MANIPULATORS!!!
~God already addressed that sort of stuff in the Bible, using HIS name in vain. Now we find out how much you really know about his will? Good day.
LOL…Bitch your hysterical!!!! 4 hour showers? Really? What could a person manage to do in the shower for 4 hours. Seems like you would be taking a shower in cold water, and your skin would be very prunish…LOL…Oh well I must stop…I am cracking up so much…
I do have to say this about that church. They are now teaching that they never ever taught all the things we were taught TO DO and NOT TO DO! Now THAT really blows my mind!!! Believe me I have moved on…just can’t stand all the LYING that goes on in the name of “CHRISTIANITY”, For these men to stand behind the pulpit and say that they never taught or preached this is total “BLASPHEMY”.
You people are all a bunch of idjits that know nothing. You just have nothing better to do with your time than to spread false rumors about good people. Stop making up lies. Everything on this page is a lie. You all are sick people. You should be ashamed of yourselves. GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!
i left the church a long time ago but i still beleive what i was taught i watched lives i knew who i felt when i had lose.yes i am living as a sinner but yet i know right from wrong
I’ll be quite honest: I was coming on here to lam-blast everyone for lying. I thought that no way could this man who was my pastor do these things. And I’m not just talking about RW, but RSt Clare. And then to read about Tieman…. See, like others, I saw “things” but dismissed them.
RW was harsh and mean and would brow beat me, while lifting up my roommate. St Clare forbid me to talk to a girl who was madly in love with me because “I didn’t need that because of Bible College” And Tieman seemed very flirty and touchy. Same with Ms St Clare.
I joined the BOrg (shout out to Johanson) in 89. Infausto was my pastor at the time. Good man from what I know. If he’s not, at this point, let me be ignorant. I’m reeling from finding out that not only RW Davis has passed away, but St Clare, and further, their names are horrible!!!!!! So if I seem scattered and disjointed, there is a reason for this. I’m blown away and I have ADD. 🙂
Ok, I was a young GI, away from home and I loved the Lord. I was sort of a loose cannon…a free thinker. Obviously not allowed in the Org. But that was preached out of me. At this point in my life, I would see the Lord do amazing things; from healings to unfreezing water at sub-zero temperatures.
I went to their school, never saw a real miracle. I went out into the work, and after being left alone, I began to die on the vine. I remember the preacher who I was assigned to work with, NOT visiting me while I was laid up for three days. I couldn’t attend any event or anything. He didn’t even enquire about me.
I finally was so discouraged I just gave up. I lived in sin, and still went to Church. I was called by Rev Olson to make sure I’d pay my tithe. …go figure…. And to go back up to Washington for further indoctrination. I guess mine was wearing off.
Anyway, I stumbled around for a while. I went to Church, another Holiness one. And still got some of the brow beating. I really really got tired of it; the hypocrisy and gossip, so I totally left. I went to a Church that preached more of Grace than damnation. Then I went to a Church that has a balance of both Grace and sin preaching.
What can I say of where I am at? I am humbled and feel horrible that I was doubting Julie. In my heart Julie, I doubted your life story. I am so very sorry.
Where am I at in my life now? Serving Jesus. The best place. But I am still hurting. My “hero’s” weren’t hero’s. And after reading this article and others, and looking at my past and the “spirit” I had in my life, I understand who I was and why I was that way. I think RW put it best. He said that Adulter’s couldn’t be in the Org and you couldn’t fellowship with them because there is a spirit about them. And that spirit would transfer…so to speak. Anyone following me? I hung out with these two men. I was their shoe shine boy. The one they could beat behind the pulpit, but like a dog, when they called, I would come with my tail wagging.
I love Jesus. So very much! His Grace and Mercy has been abundant and poured out in my life. I am grateful! I’m grateful for the truth. See, I thought about contacting the Org, maybe going back. Now, I won’t. I’m going to bloom where the Lord has planted me. And I am blooming!
I see the Lord answer my prayers in the most magnificent and glorious ways more often than not! I see His favor upon my life more than ever! I am excited about my faith and share it more than I ever have!
I’m not going to discount all the good the Org had done. I do believe in many ways they gave me some good tools to build with. It’s just a shame I have to “dig through the slop barrel to find a few good biscuits.”
I know I may read this a year from now, and won’t believe that I wrote such a horrible blog. LOL
Folks, like Jessi said, be free! Folks, stay close to Jesus!
And remember this, don’t be too critical of these men and women. No, I’m not justifying their sin(s). Not at all. But Davis and Ralph are where they are. At this point, I do not want to venture a guess. If David would not lift up his hand against Saul, we need to be careful. We are not greater than David. Let’s watch what we do or say. Further, if we continue to dredge up the past, and live it like it happened yesterday, there is no real healing. You are allowing them to CONTINUE the abuse even though they are gone. Move on.
My advise to do that: Vent, move on and live. Live because Jesus set you free! Live and enjoy the life you have now; that is the greatest revenge you could ever have. Live for Jesus and enjoy your life! And if you haven’t asked Jesus (back) into your life, let me know. I’d love to pray with you.
He’s coming again; and a Lost and dying world need to have a living Christ preached to them.
And before you get to critical of anyone, remember this: If not for the Grace of God, there go I. If you do not guard your heart, and live for Jesus, what are YOU capable of doing….
God Bless!
Chris, I totally agree with your comment. Thank you for having the courage to post on here.
Chris, don’t believe everything that you hear about people, or someones story about NTCC just because it happens to be bad. I’m not saying that there are not things that have been done by the hierarchy of NTCC that isn’t bad, or that hasn’t affected other people, but I’m just saying don’t believe everything that you hear. The first indication of that is whenever someone’s story begins to “morph”. What do I mean by that? The story starts off innocent enough. But as the story progresses the tales become more far-fetched, and the claims more ridiculous as time goes on until the people or person thinks that they have garnered all the attention that they are going to garner. Mistakes and stupid things have been done by people at NTCC, no doubt about it.
Everything posted on the internet is true.
Just as Mark G. says not to believe everything that you hear about people in the ntcc just because it’s bad, we would also caution you not to discount everything you hear just because some find it outlandish. We run a blog for X-members of the ntcc to share their testimonies of what they went through while they were in the ntcc. We have people that are willing to testify in court about the abuse they’ve been through, but the abuse happened long ago and it’s hard to get justice when decades have passed. We would caution you not to just write things off because they seem too far fetched. Learn from the history of other cults who have been fronts for sexual abuse and child sexual abuse. Learn from the FLDS who were able to hide multiple counts of child rape and sexual abuse for decades while girls were being exploited for sex and old Geezers like Jeffs and the late RW Davis were getting away with it. The ntcc had a day school that was run by a known cross dresser named Michael Rudy who spanked and fondled children, and later went on to Pastor Servicemen’s homes where he was excommunicated for homosexuality. Spanking other people’s kids was a common practice in the ntcc that many people knew about, it’s not a secret. X-Ministers have been arrested and thrown in jail for abusing other people’s children. The abuse would take place in private after the pastor would convince the parents that their children were unruly and needed to be spanked. The Pastor would take the child into a private room and remove any clothing that was covering the child’s buttocks and private area and have his liberty with a switch or paddle. Some of the victims have reported that more than spankings took place. This practice of removing clothing from children of other parents gave them direct access to the childrens private parts. Different ntcc Day School children have testified that Rudy, Davis, Ashmore, Kekel, St. Clair and others were all involved in sexually touching various girls before, during and/or after the spankings were administered. Many ministers and long time members who were parents have been outed by their children for this type of spanking. The St. Clairs and Barbara Norton were outed by their daughters, while Davis, Kekel and Ashmore were outed by several members of the Dayschool also. In a previous article where Bruce did not mention any names he reported that one woman was sexually violated at 16 years old by R.W. Davis while married to Johnny Jordan who worked for Davis in the office and the brother of long time Pastor and Board member George Jordan. Johnny was married to the woman that Davis felt up and Johnny raped the 14 year old sister of his wife and got her pregnant. Johnny Jordan was never tried in court for this crime but he has a history of child sexual abuse and is now serving time for sexual battery of a minor and now is serving time for other abuse and has been a registered sex offender for years since leaving the ntcc. Johnny also raped a young man who was a member of the ntcc in St. Louis. Names and testimonies of the abused our on our site which can be found at http://www.ntccxerblog.blogspot.com with other supporting public records in some cases. According to multiple witnesses Davis whipped Eddie Mears for not eating a Braunsweiger and Government cheese sandwich. Julie has testified that she was spanked by ntcc board members, Tanya Kekel, Angela Eury and sexually abused multiple times by several men. Fontenot was also convicted for two counts of rape of a child in the second degree abusing his own daughter by finger penetration/rape. He was out of jail on parole and violated the conditions of his parole by trolling around for another child to violate and is now serving a 10 year to life sentence. According to Larry Duran, (Ashmores step son), Ashmore had to have Board member Rodrigues hold him down so he could be whipped at the Forrest Ave. Church. There are others that we have blogged about that we can’t reveal the names of because the abuse was too personal and we don’t want to out a person or do anything to publicly hurt them beyond what they have already been put through, but all have been victims of abuse and have shared their testimonies with us.
It’s up to you if you want your children to grow up in an atmosphere like the ntcc. You can say that every thing I wrote is outlandish and far fetched if you want to but trust this group at your own peril. There are too many accounts of abuse to ignore, and if you want to look at the spiritual abuse that they’ve caused it would take volumes of books to cover all of the abuse throughout the years and that is still taking place in the ntcc. The ntcc has never denied any of these allegations and quite frankly I don’t think they want to because the witnesses that would be paraded before a jury would be too numerous and credible to discount and the publicity from such a trial would damage their attendance and influx of money to a point that they might not survive the onslaught. We have been made out to be demons by many because people don’t think we should warn others about this type of behavior. When a victim comes forward with accounts of sexual abuse that they have endured as a child they have to stand up and publicly identify themselves with a crime that is so sickening and gross that it makes them feel like they are reliving it again to share details, and it exposes them to all the people who want to doubt them and say that they are lying. The brave women who have shared their testimonies have done so at a cost to themselves and their families and friends but in doing so they have raised awareness to many of the dirty and hidden secrets that have been kept inside this cult called the ntcc for decades. I believe that people have been steered away from the ntcc because of many of these testimonies and that they have been spared from becoming victims. Everything that we have shared has allegedly happened with the exception of Fontenot and Johnny Jordan who were convicted in a court of law. We have to say that because there are nitpickers that would rather tear down these victims and cast doubt on their testimonies without a shred of evidence that what they have shared was untrue. Most sexually abused children don’t have an audience of witnesses that will come forward and testify on their behalf because the filth of the crime is so great that it is done in secret, without witnesses. Nobody, including the police wanted to believe the victim whose testimony put Warren Jeffs in prison. It’s up to you. Are all these people lying? If you think that any of them are lying or not telling the truth about everything they have shared, do you have any proof to discount them and prove that they are lying? Why wouldn’t the ntcc come forward to protect their “good” name? My personal belief is that some folks that don’t believe the victims of abuse and want to disparage their testimonies do it because they are tolerant of these types of abuse and feel guilty about their own involvement in similar crimes in their own past. But that is just my opinion, no specific accusations against anyone that disagrees. If you are a former crack addict, and you have kicked the habit and resolved never to smoke crack again, would you choose to live around and associate with a bunch of known crack dealers? It’s up to you. We warn people because we are very involved in helping people with broken lives try to put their lives back together again. Our participation serves to raise awareness of what has happened in the ntcc and keep it from happening to future victims. The ntcc keeps it’s members from reading our blog and labels us as enemies of God who publish filth about them. They have their own secret campaigns that they run to keep people from the truth. Ntcc members do not have a voice and they are not allowed to associate with us. We have no motive or no reason to lie. We are not making money like they are. We are not profiting. We leave it in your hands to read this and make sound decisions, especially for your families. You can discount all of these testimonies if you want to and learn for yourself the hard way. We hope you will take our advise along with the advise of thousands of X-members of the ntcc and save yourself from years of heart ache and oppression.
I have very little doubt in my mind that sexual abuse and things of a sexual nature happened at NTCC but as I said, I don’t believe everything that I hear about everyone involved. And please, Don, Don’t send me any more “coded” messages. You know what I’m talking about when I say what I just said.
I’m not going to post what I really want to post because it would be too inflammatory. I don’t know why you felt it incumbent to even comment on what I said in the first place.
I was commenting for the sake of those who spilled their guts about the abuse they suffered in the ntcc and are not believed because there are those out there who like to cast doubt on what they share, for whatever reason, and with not one shred of evidence that it didn’t happen the way they said it happened, but only a feeling inside that “it couldn’t possibly all be true”. Why would that offend you Mark? What has been shared that you don’t believe to such a point that it makes you mad enough to threaten me with inflammatory remarks that you won’t share? I have never said anything inflammatory about you personally, but I sure do wonder why this would offend you to such a degree. Nothing was coded but when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that gets hit, yelps the loudest.
D/A seem to make some good points, Mark. There are quite a few people that have come forward. Different people with a lot of serious statements about sexual abuse. You say that you have very little doubt that sexual abuse has happened in the NTCC, but you seem like you are more sympathetic to the predators than you are to the victims, or at least it seems to be more important to you to point out your doubts than to voice your opposition to the ones that even you admit are guilty of sexual abuse. Reading their blog and what they have shared here, it seems like they are more interested in helping victims than disagreeing with you. Looking at all of the history of abuse in the NTCC I don’t think the accusations are far fetched at all. These victims need a lawyer that can file a class action lawsuit on their behalf. After reading what D/A shared and your comments before and after their comment, it seems like you are upset at the wrong people. Whose the enemy here? I wish people would be upset at the right ones and channel their energy toward the ones who created the need for a blog like this. It is not normal for a healthy church to have so many blogs and a Newspaper like this full of comments against them. This Newspaper has published articles that verify much of what D/A has shared. The names were changed to protect the innocent but if you look at the Fontenot story and some of the testimony that is in the latter parts of it and go over to D/A’s blog you will find that they have interviewed the very ones Bruce originally broke the story about. Once Julie came on D/A’s blog and started sharing what she went through the other girls that Bruce mentioned (not by name) felt comfortable and opened up and started commenting about what they went through. I personally don’t think D/A made any of this up.
Don, I said what I said because you mentioned me by name. Why did you do that? Why would you even go there, given the fact that we have disagreed in the past regarding this subject? And for the record…..No, I don’t believe everything that Julie St.Clair has said. I made that clear several months ago whenever I spoke to you and had some reservations about things that she had said. One of my greatest concerns about her story is that she said it happened, and then she RECANTED HER STORY! In a court of law, do you know what that does to your credibility? In a court of law a lawyer would absolutely destroy her. There are other things about her story that I simply do not believe. I’m not saying that all of it is false, But I’m not going to try and sift through everything that she has said. I’m simply not going to say that I believe someone whenever I don’t, or just because Don T. puts his stamp of approval on it. Also Don, I don’t go on your blogsite anymore. I don’t go there for a reason. Why would you want to make a backhanded comment about me out here? And also, How did I threaten you with “inflammatory remarks?” Don, If I have something to say to someone I’ll say it to their face, and not behind a keyboard. And that includes you. I do have some questions to ask you, but I won’t do it out here.
So what’s your next step, Don? To start a Facebook page that calls people out by name and follows them around on the WWW, or anybody else that disagrees with you?
And Don, Please, Can’t you just leave Nichelle Tieman alone? I heard that you’re STILL trying to get mileage out of the fact that she tried to seduce you. Don, How long ago was that? I don’t know the woman, I’ve never met her, she made a mistake. Just leave her alone, for crying out loud! How much longer are you going to go on about that poor woman?
Mark G. said: “One of my greatest concerns about her story is that she said it happened, and then she RECANTED HER STORY! In a court of law, do you know what that does to your credibility? ”
DNA said:
Sorry Mark, I didn’t mean to get you so stirred up. Can you please clarify your statement about Julie recanting her story? Please let us know specifically what she said to make you think that she recanted her story. It’s not fair to her to accuse her of something that she hasn’t done. I’ve read her testimony several times and talked to Julie on the phone and find no conflicts. So the answer to your question is, yes, I do think she would have credibility in a court of law. Please answer my question since I answered yours.
Mark said:
“Don, I said what I said because you mentioned me by name. Why did you do that?”
DNA said:
I was replying to your comment. You wrote it and signed your name to it. I think you are making way too much out of this. I’m not offended that you used my name. So we disagree, that happens on blogs.
I don’t know why in the hell I’m even talking to you in the first place. I have a business to run, and right now I’m busy and my response will take an hour + that I’ll never be able to get back. But I’ll do it, but I’ll do it when I’M READY! I wish you would just return to your blog and not talk to me is what I wish. But I can see that you’re going to stalk me all over the WWW until you provoke an answer out of me, so I’ll do it.
You made an accusation without backing it up with facts. Is everybody supposed to believe Julie recanted her story just because Mark G. said so? That wouldn’t stand in a court of law. You didn’t worry about all the time you wouldn’t get back when you were dumping on Julie and accusing her of lying on our blog. You said that Julie recanted her story and that’s a serious allegation. It shouldn’t take more than an hour to clarify that. You had enough time to dump on Julie and accuse her of lying and then write your statements accusing me of stalking you. Really???
This is not your blog site, Don. You don’t get to make the rules out here and then erase what you don’t like. I’ll answer you back when I’M READY. Right now I’m busy. I won’t allow you to rush me, or provoke me into an answer. Go on your flogsite and eat a little “cheese” with that “whine”. Nobody else is complaining, Just you. And Don, get your own material to use. (That wouldn’t stand in a court of law.)
That’s what I thought. It seems like the reason you can’t produce Julie’s recantation is because perhaps there isn’t one. Could it be that you lied about it? What I asked you was a very simple question, and if you were telling the truth you wouldn’t need to be “provoked” to answer. Now you are busy trying to change the subject. This may not be my blog site, but it’s not your’s either. That’s really lame, Mark. The reason I’ve chosen to address this topic in this forum, is because you have chosen to use this forum to dump on Julie and then me. You said Julie recanted her story, and then you talked about her credibility in a court of law; which later you called “your own material”. All we want to know is what basis you have for making this statement. I wouldn’t think that you would have to prepare an answer unless you are lying. You can make it about me if you want and talk about whine and cheese. There have been others that have disagreed with us before, but they usually have much more substance than you seem to have. When ever you get unbusy we would appreciate an answer because we are getting emails from people asking when Julie recanted her story. Apparently your the only one who knows about this.
You can wait. You’re going to wait because you don’t have a choice about it. Right now talking to you is not the most important thing in my life right now. Like I said before, I’ll get around to it when I’m ready. and if you want to say that I’m lying, and pitch a little temper tantrum and stomp your foot and hold your breath, be my guest.
Actually, to be honest with you, I don’t even care if you keep it a secret for the rest of your life. I could care less about your ‘secret’ knowledge of Julie recanting, and the longer it stays a secret. Your own opinion will grow less and less credible the more you stonewall. But that’s how you always have been. I can’t count the times that you came on our blog and said: “I have some things that I would like to say, But I’m not going to do it right now.”, and then you never said them. I could copy and paste them all into one comment, but what would be the point? You did this over and over again. So I’ve pretty much figured out that you are likely never going to share your secret information, most likely because it doesn’t exist. I guess I knew all along that your claim was bogus. Take care Mark, hope you find all the answers you are looking for.
OK Don, Before I get into anything else, Let me address what you just said. First of all, does this mean that you’re not going to follow me from your blogsite out here, or anywhere else any longer? And yes, there were many times whenever I said “I have some things that I would like to say, But I’m not going to do it right now.”. But how about the reasons as to “why” I said, and did that. How many times did I get on you blogsite (which has really turned into little more than a cauldron of hatred, by the way) and try to explain my position to you as to the reason(s) why I didn’t necessarily accept everything at face value regarding what Julie said and I would take the time to write what I would write and then you would not post it? Or, you would partially post what I had said and then twist it around, or leave out important components of what I said. Lets talk about that, Don. Don’t try and go all self righteous on me, and pretend to take the high moral road on this. You take everything that everyone says (and especially Julie, for some odd reason) and believe it. The more far-fetched, and the more outrageous, the better. Your blogsite has turned into little more than National Enquirer tabloid-ism. And by the way, I’m not fooled, or mesmerized by your BS Don. The sad part about about this is the fact that in the beginning, you had some really good things going on. When you started up Jeff Collins and his blogsite was starting to wind down a bit. He had talked about closing it down for awhile. I’ve spoken to Jeff about 4 or 5 times by phone. I’ve always known him to be a very high energy type guy. We’ve disagreed in the past, but I’ve ALWAYS respected him, and I know that I can call him even today and I hope that he knows that he can call me at any time. He’s a straight up guy, Don. But anyway I was very supportive of both yourself, your work, and the work that Ange put in. There was a time that I was worried that you might close shop, and I even said that I was supportive of the site, and much of the content. Do you remember that? It wasn’t until after Julies story, and some of the things that she said, and the fact that they because so outrageous that I started to voice my concerns about and you started to chop what I said to pieces, and omit important details and components of what I said that I got pissed off and just left. But here you are, basically following me around, making innuendos towards myself, and everybody else that doesn’t tow the company line by saying that if you don’t believe what is said, then you must be a partaker in it. And there you stand, arms firmly planted on your hips, cape blowing in the wind, and music softly playing like you’re some kind of “defender of the weak” when in reality, or at least in some cases you are little more than a sanitized version of Howard Stern, or Jerry Springer. Don, please, Just do me a favor. and just GO AWAY! Go back to your cauldron of hatred, a put some more horns on Tanya Kekel’s head.
Gentlemen, your conversation has become tiresome and is inappropriate for this magazine. I suggest that you two continue your exchanges via emails to each other.
I sense that you are only posting here to attack each other in front of an audience, and I think that is harmful to this magazine.
Hence, I will not allow any more posts along these lines.
Bruce A. Smith
Editor
The Mountain News-WA
August 11, 2015. 10 pm PT
Fair enough, Bruce. Have a nice evening.
Thank you, Mark. All the best to you as well.
Bruce, we appreciate all you have done to bring to light what happens in the Church behind the fence. We respect your request and definitely will honor it. Take care Bruce.
I can see that what I have said has created a problem for some people. I had hoped that it would not come to this, but right now I’m in the process of working on this computer to try and find out why I’m having so many feedback and reverberation problems with in the record mode. I haven’t used it for some time now and I’m thinking that some of the settings might have changed on it. My intention is to create a you-tube channel to specifically state my position, and why. I won’t elaborate beyond that point. When I’m ready, I’ll post the link out here for all to see, and go to if they are interested.
“When in the record mode”, not “with in the record mode”. It never fails. I’ll post something and not proof read it as closely as I should.
Well, this is almost a year since his death, and I was curious so I googled him and got this news report and responses. So, I guess on his anniversary of going away, I can rightly sum up the problem that became his and destroyed any good work he had down in his early years.
He had always wanted to be a successful business man in life, but he was snagged into the Christian ministry in the 50s, by the usual evangelical zeal of trusted Christian ministers. And so, when he happened upon an initially pure-hearted outreach to soldiers in the Pastor’s homes, he then saw his chance and made it into the great servicemen’s home business success model he always wanted. The problem being of course, was that he turned the Father’s Loving People Business into man’s commercialized people business.
Thus, Thus, it became more and more about people being merchandise for his business of success and less and less about souls being blessed by the Father’s Business of Love. In the end, a good man, good Christian, and initially good minister became just another utterly deceptive, manipulative, and destructive cult leader, and a rich one to boot. So, he finally got what he really wanted the most, and lost his soul for his efforts, as well as ruining the souls of many others in the process.
So, my initial reaction to the news of his death remains the same: “Good riddance to bad rubbish”. I do not pretend to grieve over the death of conquerors and destroyers, when perhaps their harmful works can be stopped. Unfortunately his legacy will definitely live on, being left with his inheritor son-in-law, who is even more of a totally pollitized shark-eating wolf than davis was, and he didn’t even have the decency to earn his own filthy lucre like davis, but rather was given it. So, the near-future for NTCC? “The king is dead, long live the queen’s husband!'”
That is a very good post Robert. As a matter of fact probably one of the better ones in recent weeks. I have always maintained that RW Davis took the vision that WK “Pop” Gaylord had and exploited it. I didn’t agree with everything that Pop Gaylord did, or said but I never doubted his love and zeal for God. Whenever I am up in Washington I stop by and visit their grave-site because I do have a high degree of respect for both of them. I have wondered many times since then as to “Why couldn’t or wasn’t he able to see through what was going on?” The only plausible explanation that I can come up with as to why he couldn’t see of didn’t see (or chose not to see) was possibly because he was so happy with the fact that he found someone that shared his vision. Much of the time during Pop Gaylord’s ministry military people were not very well thought of, and as a general rule were shunned. I remember both Mom & Pop Gaylord as being very trusting people. He knew of RW Davis’s sexual proclivities at the church in Chrondolet, Missouri, which by the way are WELL DOCUMENTED, but chose to ignore this early warning sign as to what might be a precursor to future behavior. It’s a said story, with no real ending for many of the people involved.
Well Mark. It really is as simple a bad story as another uncalled minister ending up making a profiteering business out of the ministry of Christ. (THAT is NOT new nor unique. Believe me.) If anyone ever wanted to try and understand all the conflicting ins & outs of davis’ efforts from the 80’s onward, all you had to ask yourself was: How does this profit his business…If Scripture helped him at the moment, he quoted it. If Scripture was against him, he ignored it, or twisted it to his own benefit.
I was with davis, after Gaylord’s passing, and he opined that “Pop, just never really understood the business potential of Servicemen’s Homes.”
That one quote showed what davis became really all about, and that Gaylord never got fully onboard with it. He did make some hinted warnings in preaching from time to time, but why he never stood up openly? God and he know.
If you want to know all about r w davis as a ‘minister’, and the building of his oh so great and powerful and highly profitable organization, just see him saying this after purposely ruining another couple’s lives:
“Hey nothing personal. It’s just business.” And guess what, according to Scripture, out of thine own mouth hast thou condemned thyself, God may well say at the Great White Thrown Judgment: “Hey, nothing personal. It’s just Judgment.”
Davis at bible school: “As ministers, we are in the people business.”
Davis at conference: “The ministry is a business. Jesus said I must be about my Father’s business!”
Yes, He did, but the Father’s business is the Loving People Business, NOT the ”people business”. The Father’s has been and still is for salvation, blessing, and life eternal. davis’ was and still is for preaching, profit, and then the judgment.
Why don’t you all just get saved and stop trying to destroy the work of God.
One would expect God to have higher quality work than what we observe in NTCC. Beware of false teachers and merchandisers of the gospel. Were not a sucker born every minute, NTCC would quickly vanish. But there’s a continual parade of dupes volunteering to get their paychecks ravished and their lives micromanaged by a collection of hypocrites and liars. Look behind the surface and you’ll discover how corrupt they are.
While I don’t agree with all that is being said, I don’t question everyone’s salvation.
And as far as this page or any other webpage “destroying the with of God,” that’s not going to happen. Or have you not read that’ Jesus wool build His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. At least, that’s what my Bible says.
But while we’re on the destroying topic, maybe these men should have thought about the damage to the Church and the people BEFORE they fulfilled their lust.
I knew Davis, St Claire, and others personally….. these sites and people are spot on.
So Sister, Jesus’ Church will survive this. NTCC is NOT the only Church doing right in the World.
And quit following men, and follow Jesus.
Farewell
New Testament Christian Church (NTCC) is a wonderful organization made up of dedicated, loving, and hardworking people that really have a heart for God, a passion for His Word, and a desire to share Christ with the world. Many of the words of this article are untrue and it hurts me to think that a story would be run solely based on a letter submitted to the editor without any fact checking or attempts at gaining a response from the current administration. There is a backstory for everything. Without this knowledge you will read many of these comments and get the wrong picture. There is so much talk about the past and nothing about what God is doing right now in the lives of many. New Testament Christian Church is an amazing place to worship filled with people who love God and desire to see Him do great things in the lives of those in their family, community, and also the world. Lives are changed, hearts are healed, relationships restored, and peace and fellowship abound. I praise God for the love at New Testament Christian Church. It has been over 20 years since I first experienced it and it has changed my life and for that I am truly thankful.
I too attended NTCC. For a long time.
I found what you said to be mostly true.
I don’t agree with all the teachings. But that being said. To peg Reverend Davis as a greedy child abuser is just unfair and untrue.
A lot of what’s here is just slander I think.
With little evidence from people that I believe did not like the doctrine.
A lot of the people in NTCC are just what you said, although like you they are sadly duped. The leadership of NTCC, however, has a long and well documented legacy of corruption and deceit, and until they come clean and repent publicly, they have no credibility. You have little knowledge of the misery inflicted upon thousands of people over the years by your elitist overlords, and as long as you’re willing to give them your unquestioned loyalty and support, they have no incentive to change their ways. It wasn’t too long ago that we were forbidden from even participating in the “sinnernet.” But no one has ever acknowledged that the extreme legalism which prevailed for decades was wrong or destructive, and they act like the people they ran off for no good reason were just evildoers and godhaters.
Enjoy your delusions, but don’t forget about the lives that were ravaged over trivial things that you do without hesitation, like going online. I myself was rebuked from the pulpit by RW Davis for even having a modem installed on my PC, although I was too broke (thanks to the parasitic nature of your church) to afford an internet account. No one who experienced what we did is going to forget it, and I’m sorry if you don’t want to hear unpleasant things about the cult you serve, but we do feel an obligation to warn the unwary.
You must understand the theory that people like this are vehemently opposed to anything that even approaches sexual perversion. And since the net provides a lot of such content and
Questionable content on TV as well they were against the medium as a whole. What they didn’t understand is that if someone wants to find something that turns them on they’ll find it.
And those mediums have other used and interesting and informative content as well.
Most people probably have the net and TV for the later now. Even in the church. So it’s come
Full circle.
Change is fine. Changing while pretending not to change is duplicitous and hypocritical. RW Davis, being a manipulative cult leader, knew more about human nature and behavior than you ever will. He taught us that it’s important to preach against something. He used to quoted Jack Hyles (another grifting liar and serial abuser), who said if he couldn’t find anything to preach against, he’d preach against Hershey bars.
Nothing has come “full circle;” they just want to change while acting like nothing is different and that all the people they condemned to hell don’t even exist.
Wit all due respect, you were what was disparagingly referred to as a “regular church member.” You have no clue about the kinds of treatment endured by the more devoted. Congratulations for escaping that, but it’s funny hearing you dismiss the most egregious offenses as trivial as if you know what you’re talking about.
Well I’m glad to hear you say that some of the pastors are good people trying to help others. I knew Reverend Marshal,St clair, Rodriguez, Espinoza and reverend Write I believe these were good people trying to help others. I also like Reverend
Johnson and Reverend Kenson.
There have been a few I’ve taken issue with.
Higher up and in the church.
So as you can see I’ve been around the block. I wish you well. Victor
I am an ex member who would like to get in touch with Vivian. Please let me know how I can do this thank you
I hope your post proves successful, Cristina.
-BAS
She’s on Facebook–Vivian R. Maxson
I don’t know why people say Davis was greedy for self gain. Sure he rode around in a Oldsmobile and had a nice house and things. But shouldn’t a person that works all the time be aloud that. Most of the money tha money that came in supported the church and ministry far as I could see. I am not a big proponent of Davis or NTCC. I don’t even attend any more. But come on people let’s tell the truth
“As far as I could see.”
Right. That would be about a millimeter.
What do you suppose he was doing with the money when all his time was spent working to build churches? Preach and run things?
Why do you suppose he was using all his time to do what you say he was doing? This is a guy who used to tell us “I’m the nicest guy in the world–if you don’t believe me, ask me.” So you make a bunch of assumptions based on his lying words and your own superficial observations and then presume to school those who know differently from firsthand experience.
The fact is you don’t have any idea where the money went, and the reason you’re ignorant about that is because RW Davis insured that everyone knew it was nobody’s business, and that zero financial transparency or oversight was to be the policy of the NTCC (which is still true today). He and his cronies feathered their nests at the expense of the poor.
BTW, he rode around in a Cadillac and a palatial motorhome (when he wasn’t flying the airplane we paid for while we made minimum wage and ate Ramen to “take care of the man of god”). You don’t know the reality and are a lame apologist for a corrupt and abusive system.
You sound bitter. I don’t know what happened I wasn’t there but you judge me and make accusations just like you and others have made about reverend Davis. You don’t know me or what I believe. In fact I haven’t attended NTCC for years. And don’t think our lives were never micro managed as regular church members. Just look at things objectively
And realize that people with an ax to grind tell lies. That’s all I’m saying.
Myself German weint to their church here in Gernany and I consider it as a cult, with cult-like practices and I believe everything or most of it true what is said about all of them together.
Sorry to disappoint; I’d never let a loser like RW Davis or any of his cronies infect me with bitterness. It’s not “bitter” to warn people that what they see on the exterior isn’t necessarily representative of what’s really going on. You are a prime example. I may not know you, but I do know NTCC, and therefore know that your impressions are erroneous. I suppose technically that’s an “accusation,” but it’s an accurate one, and not motivated by any antipathy. I’d just hate for others to think this “church” might be worth considering because you want to sow doubt about what hundreds of people know for a fact–that it’s a cult. No hate toward you; I myself was deceived for many years and would have never leaned the ugly truth if I’d have remained a “regular church member.”
There are two categories in NTCC–lots of prey and a few predators, at the top of the food chain. Beware. It’s certainly true that many pastors in NTCC are fine people who are doing their best to help others. They’re prey themselves. Others are grifters who covet the lavish lifestyles of the “leadership” and imitate their oppressive ways to curry favor and gain promotion. I surmise you went to a church led by one of the former, so you had a decent experience and remain oblivious to the harsh treatment inflicted by the latter. Then you come around and disparage people who endured things you can’t even imagine, and chalk it up to “bitterness.” We’ve heard it all before, and for all we know, you might be one of these leaders sowing disinformation and trying to administer damage control. Just saying. Don’t defend the indefensible when you don’t have the facts.
Mark just commented on RW Davis, founder and leader of the New Testament Christian Church, dies.
In response to Victor Johanson:
Well I’m glad to hear you say that some of the pastors are good people trying to help others. I knew Reverend Marshal,St clair, Rodriguez, Espinoza and reverend Write I believe these were good people trying to help others. I also like Reverend
Johnson and Reverend Kenson.
There have been a few I’ve taken issue with.
Higher up and in the church.
So as you can see I’ve been around the block. I wish you well. Victor
Yes, you’ve been around the block, but there’s a lot you don’t know. Likeableness isn’t a valid criterion for spiritual leadership. I lived with Phil Kinson; he was my friend. He ended up marrying Johnson’s daughter, whom he started dating when she was 13 years old. Mike Kekel tried to persuade me to pursue her myself when she was only 12 and she had a crush on me! Too weird; I took a pass (even though marrying into NTCC royalty would have greased the skids for me just like it did for Phil and Mike). So you might like Johnson and Kinson, but both of them were fine with that scenario, and it wasn’t uncommon to see barely teenaged girls pursued by grown men. Ick. One guy wanted to court St. Clair’s daughter when she was only 10, but that was too much even for Ralph (although maybe not for RW; when they guy went to him for “permission,” he told him to go talk to Ralph about it!).
I lived in the dorm next to Marshall’s. He ended up blowing out with hookers in the Philippines; I understand he wound up in jail some point after that meltdown; not sure the charges. The word is that the “leadership” knew he was smoking cigarettes, but sent him as a missionary anyway. It’s all about the Benjamins, baby, and he knew how to pump up the numbers and offerings. He’s supposedly back in the ministry somewhere now. I liked him too, but that’s no endorsement of his character. Hope he’s doing better now.
St. Clair was in the Army with me at Fort Lewis. He was a good guy but totally brainwashed, and was badly used (particularly by Johnson). He ended up dying broke. His daughter claims he pimped her out to GIs and that the leadership was molesting her, but I’m skeptical about that. Unfortunately, she was badly damaged psychologically by the NTCC upbringing she (and all kids except the favored offspring of the predators) received. His widow married Wright, before he also died. Wright was a nice guy too, but a total enabler. He was the helper at the first NTCC church I ever attended.
Espinoza was an excellent man who also was preyed on; after he died, the church in Graham parasitically absorbed his whole congregation. His widow had to go work on a job just to survive. Rodriguez also appeared to be prey and was subjected to constant ridicule, but was too humble to push back.
Think on these things before you bring your mom around.
“His daughter claims he pimped her out to GIs and that the leadership was molesting her, but I’m skeptical about that.”
As I said several years ago I Believe what Julie St. Claire said regarding her dad, but it just seemed like as time went on, the stories begin to morph and to the point of being absolutely ridiculous. I know I was ridiculed for not believing everything, and I’m not saying that she didn’t suffer at the hands of NTCC. I’m not saying that at all, but I just don’t believe everything that she has said. Having said that, it’s not my purpose out here to start an argument or a war with anybody. Since my wife passed away, I’m not the same person that I was back then. My heart has been broken, and I have no desire to argue with anybody or get into a conflict. I have enough problems in my life without that. God bless and keep everyone of you, Mark.
Well, he said she said, so it’s impossible to know.
BTW, I remember you. I think you left Tillicum before I got there. Weren’t you in Hawaii? I thought you passed through St. Louis once while I was there, or maybe it was later on in Washington. Pretty sure I saw you someplace, but it was after I’d left the Army. I’d only heard your name before then.
I can tell you that things changed for the worse as the years passed, and got weirder and weirder. It was a far different place in the 90s than in the 70s. So your experience isn’t really representative of what went on later, and mine may not correspond with what’s happening right now, either, because I left in 1995. But I do know that some heinous things went down during my long tenure, and you might consider yourself to have dodged a bullet for avoiding the “college.” From what I can tell, it’s a kinder gentler version now, but still toxic and controlling.
Anyone who considers visiting should know the sketchy history of what they might be getting involved with. Guys like Dave Armer and Les Rhinehart have extensively investigated both RW Davis’ pre-NTCC history and the fraudulent representations made in the 501(c)(3) application, which was obtained from the government and compared with known facts. As you were taught, all liars have their place. Even Ashmore, one of the original enablers, had to bail (although he couldn’t bring himself to do so until after RW was dead).
It’s really sad. I know the memories you have. To this day I’ve never experienced that level of fellowship and closeness. They didn’t have to exploit us. We loved them and one another and were willing to do anything for a brother. It could have blossomed into something beautiful, but instead became this creepy financial grift/control system. It’s a real estate investment firm masquerading as a church, basically, and the whole thing started with buying broken down dorms in St. Louis with “OPM” (other people’s money), as RW used to call it. Now holdings are in the millions, and cash flow is completely opaque. I attended the Advanced School of Theology while I was a teacher. The textbook? Napoleon Hill’s “Law of Success.” What kind of theology is that? I mean, there’s useful stuff in there, but the pursuit of mammon isn’t the fixation of one seeking spiritual growth as a christian. So that’s what you missed out on.
Ya Kekel is not my favorite. I think he’s overbearing and likes telling people what to do
He’s an excellent guitar player though I will give him that..
Maybe that’s why Reverend kinson is the pastor and not him.
Never heard anything about kids being molested which seems strange to me because word travels fast in small circles.
As for younger girls marrying older men.
That’s been going on for a long time.
Not only in church.
I never heard of anyone being married off under 18.
I think that in some states 16 is allowed with parents permission.
Yes marrying them off to a minister does pretty much guarantee that they’ll stay in the ministry.
As for sister Espinoza that’s unfortunate
That should not have happened because she was a widow indeed
A lot of the other widows have been taken care of by the church or married another minister..
It seems like most people with grievances stop posting here about a decade ago. I wonder what happened to them?
Kinson is the pastor, but Kekel is the boss. It’s like Davis and Olson; only one had real power, and Olson still doesn’t have any. Kekel is absolutely a fantastic guitar player, and he picked up the keyboard in record time too. Plus pedal steel. I was the drummer for a number of years and have played with him hundreds of times. Too bad his people skills are less impressive.
Maybe it’s different now, but many girls were married at 16 back in the day, and for that to happen, the courtships started a year or two (or more) earlier. I’m not making that up. Our daughter was 13 when we left, and she was getting lots of interest from future ministers. Glad we escaped before she got hooked up with one.
Life goes on; most people don’t have the stamina to continue denouncing the cult, and as time passes don’t even want to think about it anymore. I don’t go out of my way, but when opportunities arise, I respond and put out what I know for the sake of those who might be deceived about this group. They have a veneer of respectability that conceals a highly corrupt interior, so it’s important that their slick website and youtube videos aren’t the only source of information. I pity those who are trapped, but the leadership has earned only contempt.
Thank you so much, Bruce for allowing my comment to be posted. I had some doubts as to whether you would let it go through or not since I was talking on a very delicate and touchy subject. Thank you so much.
Yes, Victor you are absolutely right. Whenever I got out of the army in June of 81, I went to St. Louis from Washington with Jerry Duran and Jerry Infausta. (I probably didn’t get his last name right) But I remember seeing you as well as Perry. Broadnax and Christian Wales, And some of the other brothers that was there. The whole time I was there visiting I stayed at Brother Johnson’s hous. I remember being absolutely miserable because it seems like I was zeroed in on by people wanting me to go to Bible College. Nothing against Pastor Johnson and his family. They were very gracious to me and refused my offer to pay for my staying there. But I just remember being miserable because I had so many conflicting doubts in my mind and my heart about what to do. And then at the end of my staying there. There was some kind of a prophecy that I remember Pastor Davis said. It seemed like he was zeroing in on me personally. But maybe that is my own paranoia. I just remember Pastor Davis as being somebody who would try to scare you and manipulate you into obeying. That’s the way I remember him. It’s amazing what you can see whenever you get a little bit of life’s experience and you mature as I believe I have now. I can clearly see what New Testament. Christian Church was all about back during the time when I was in my early 20s. I couldn’t see it then, but now I clearly see it. God Bless everybody and
everybody have a nice day.
So as you see Mark. You were pressured but never forced to do anything you didn’t decide to
do. I don’t believe any adults were ever physically forced into anything and could leave anytime they
wanted to. As it’s been said. Gods army is an all volunteer army. If that indeed is what it is. That’s for the individual to decide.
That’s one reason although I do not attend anymore. That I feel it’s unfair to classify NTCC
As a cult.
Well, that’s a nice little play on words. Whenever somebody is being pressured to do something and they are having inner spiritual conflict about, as well as emotional conflict and then on top of that, The “General Overseer” (as he liked to call himself, ) uses the “Gift of Prophecy” to try to manipulate somebody into doing something that they are obviously conflicted about in my opinion, is not being spiritually responsible, Is downright deceptive and manipulative. I’ll even say this about Pastor Davis: (and I don’t hesitate to say this) Because of the way he lived his life and the things that he did from starting back in the 60s, 70s, the 80s and the 90s makes me wonder whether he even believed in God himself. In my opinion, nobody can live the way he did and do the things that he did and be a child of God. That’s just my opinion, and you’re welcome to disagree with me. I’m not saying that he wasn’t a Christian, I’m just saying that looking back over the years. He definitely did not live the life of a Christian. We are all imperfect. I understand that. As Matthew Henry said in one of the greatest commentaries ever written, “there are some sins that a professing Christian can commit that are inconsistent with being a child of God. It’s not my purpose to judge him. I’ll leave that to God. Every day I think about death and about the judgment seat of Christ. Every day. As I said earlier, in my opinion, his life was inconsistent with the life of a Professing Christian. And that’s all I’m going to say about that.
I too was allowed to preach. And I was good at it too. Reverend St. Clair told my wife that I was called to preach. I didn’t go to bible college nor was I ever pressured into it. Your experience may have been different. But sometimes I think people take things on themselves. Or are confused or conflicted. If it don’t feel right don’t do it. As the saying goes
Well, that explains a lot. Anyone boasting about how good he as at preaching isn’t authentic. Sounds like you’re more suited to manipulating than being manipulated, so it’s no wonder you escaped. You’d have fit right in; maybe you’d be on the crony board by now had you persisted. Thankfully the world was spared; there are enough of those kind around already.
NTCC is a wholesale soul trap, and there is constant pressure put on pastors to send more fodder. We were rebuked regularly at conferences for hanging on to faithful tithe paying members and failing to persuade them to hear and heed “the call.” (as if anyone could possibly know that about another person anyway). It often started as you describe–luring people to preach and flattering them by sowing the idea in their minds that they’re the next Jonathan Edwards. Your case illustrates the subtlety of it–whispering it in your wife’s ear. They’re like Boomhauer on King of the Hill, who hit on every female until he scored. So you dodged the trap–bully for you. There’s no need to shit on those who didn’t, many of whom were abused and traumatized for years. Their experiences are raw and real and should be considered by those deciding whether to get involved with NTCC.
, as if anyone could possibly know that about another person.preach and flattering them by sowing the idea in their minds that they’re the next Jonathan Edwards. Your case illustrates the subtlety of it–whispering it in your wife’s ear. They’re like Boomhauer on King of the Hill, who hit on every female until he scored. So you dodged the trap–bully for you. There’s no need to shit on those who didn’t, many of whom were abused and traumatized for years. Their experiences are raw and real and should be considered by those deciding whether to get involved with NTCC.
Not sure what’s up with that last comment; had to post twice to get it through.
I am not sure why I have started getting notifications about this feed again and why there is a recent discussion about NTCC organization, the good, bad and ugly. I attended NTCC in the 90’s even married and divorced a minister. Assigned to a work as a worker, being a single parent. I read a lot of the stuff posted here about these ministers and all I can say is wow! Rev Davis has been dead for 10 years. A lot of the ministers mentioned dead as well. If they brought harm to people that were or are in NTCC, they can’t anymore. The church organization still stands. The Bible school accredited with the State of Washington which tells me they are not doing everything wrong. I got saved under St.Clair and knew his daughter who got married at 17 years old. Weather all of the horrible things stated on this feed is correct or not, I can say I would not be where I am today if it were not for NTCC. I left the organization 20 years ago and I am not sorry but I applied the principles of living for the Lord, financial management, and having a personal relationship with the Lord to my everyday life and I know they work. I guess the bottom line is weather these people are real or not its about your relation with God and where you allow it to lead you that is the important thing. I see a lot of blaming or the Leadership of NTCC for the anger and bitterness people still carry years after have left NTCC. Johanson left years before I even graduated from Bible school. Some of the others I see posted, I remember coming in or going out as I was coming or going out. Don’t let your experience keep you from going to a real heaven where there is a real God that is able to keep you and guide unto that day of his return. Get in a Bible believing church and get that anger and bitterness under the blood and forgive and move on. This feed should have been shut down a long time ago and if this comment doesn’t get posted I totally understand but to blame someone who has been dead 10 years for your unhappiness or walk with God or lack there of is ridiculous. Covid took so many wonderful people of God from this earth. Why not be happy you weer not one of them and lived to testify about it.
I agree with most of what you said. I think I started this whole thing up again. When I googled who was R.W. Davis. I found people who are still angry and define NTCC
As a cult. But I just get more accusations
And stories about people who were supposedly hurt. I’m not saying that none of it is true. I just asked that people take an objective look and realize that people with grievances tell lies occasionally.
But I’m land blasted for that too.
Sorry if you misconstrue my attitude as bitter and angry. You couldn’t be more wrong about that. Strong words are necessary to convey strong danger, and just because you escaped relatively unscathed doesn’t mean everyone does. Accreditation isn’t conclusive of anything. Denis (who learned the art of the grift from RW) and HOP were accredited with the VA for decades, until it all came crashing down and the FBI raided their churches and seized their assets. RW was prudent enough not to directly scam federal agencies; he just got the money directly from us. The principles of which you speak can be obtained far more easily than via years of indentured servitude to cruel taskmasters. Enjoy your biscuits, but RW always told us it’s not worth rooting around in the bottom of a trash can just to find a few edible ones. There are better sources.
I would not say that someone that acknowledges that they are good at something. Is boasting.
I’m sure Clapton would say he plays the guitar well. That’s just stating a fact.
As for being easily manipulated.
Maybe you’re right.
I’m not.
Maybe Clapton would, after he’d become famous worldwide and won accolades for his prodigious talent. Or he might be humble and let others make that determination instead. I don’t think I’ve ever heard him remark on his competence (or any preachers in the bible claiming theirs either; most were like Amos, who regarded himself as a mere herdsman and gatherer of sycamore fruit). If he ever did, it’s unlikely to have happened when he was still a novice, anyway. I remember some guitar players back in the garage band days with heads so big they’d need a garden rake to scratch them (hat tip to RWD for that line), but no one’s heard of them since, and there’s probably good reason for that. Speaking of RWD, he used to frequently dog out what he called “2×4 preachers” with their inflated opinions of themselves. He said they had what he called “the GI syndrome” (self proclaimed expertise), and that if you could buy them for what they were worth and sell them for what they thought they were worth, you’d be rich. He wasn’t wrong about everything : -) .
I just spent 15 minutesplus crafting out a text just to have it erased. Hopefully this time,I can do a bit better.
I just read an articleregarding International House of Prayer. I’m not going to comment onthat, although I have plenty to say about it.
I was thinking about whatVictor had said regarding RW Davis speaking so disparagingly aboutthe GI’s. I NEVER, EVER heard Mom or Pop Gaylord talk that way aboutServicemen.
One of the many thingsthat bothered me about the Pentecostal Church as a whole are theexcesses. It seems like many of the Preachers (at least the ones thatmake it to the top) have some kind of a “gift” from God, or a“ministry”. Most of these Preachers presume to have Esotericknowledge of God. Everybody from Smith Wigglesworth to the current.They all seem to have a tale to tell.(I suppose most of them are notsatisfied with being a small piece of machinery in the overall schemeof things).
It is indeed sad whenevera man like James Randi and his team has to almost physically catch aPentecostal Preacher in the act of fleecing the sheep.
I know that there are manygood, and decent people who love God, and are going to Heaven, andthey are not into those excesses. I have so much to say but I’ll shutup for awhile.
You sure know how to take a ball and run with it.
Victor
I’ll take that as a compliment.
I just spent 15 minutes plus crafting out a text just to have it erased. Hopefully this time, I can do a bit better.
I just read an article regarding International House of Prayer. I’m not going to comment on that, although I have plenty to say about it.
I was thinking about what Victor had said regarding RW Davis speaking so disparagingly about the GI’s. I NEVER, EVER heard Mom or Pop Gaylord talk that way about Servicemen.
One of the many things that bothered me about the Pentecostal Church as a whole are the excesses. It seems like many of the Preachers (at least the ones that make it to the top) have some kind of a “gift” from God, or a “ministry”. Most of these Preachers presume to have Esoteric knowledge of God. Everybody from Smith Wigglesworth to the current. They all seem to have a tale to tell.(I suppose most of them are not satisfied with being a small piece of machinery in the overall scheme of things).
It is indeed sad whenever a man like James Randi and his team has to almost physically catch a Pentecostal Preacher in the act of fleecing the sheep.
I know that there are many good, and decent people who love God, and are going to Heaven, and they are not into those excesses. I have so much to say but I’ll shut up for awhile.