DB Cooper – Cooperites celebrate the 47th Anniversary of the skyjacking with conference

By Bruce A. Smith

The 47th Anniversary of the DB Cooper skyjacking was celebrated with a gathering of experts and aficionados to discuss the details of the case, and ponder new evidence and suspects.

On November 24, 1971, DB Cooper hijacked a Northwest Orient 727 enroute to Seattle from Portland, and after he jumped from the aft stairs with $200,000 in twenties tethered to his waist, nothing has ever been discovered – neither his identity, fate, or any of his gear or booty. However, $6,200 of ransom money was found on a Columbia River beach in 1980, but that discovery also defies explanation. DB Cooper’s daring-do has been feted every since, and this anniversary was no exception. The DB Cooper heist, known to law enforcement as NORJAK, remains the only unsolved skyjacking in American history. Nevertheless, the FBI officially closed the case in 2016.

Approximately 100 people gathered Saturday, November 2018 at the Edgewater Country Club in Portland, Oregon to share opinions, sell books and DVDs on the case, and network with each other. It was the third such gathering in recent memory, with a major conference in Portland in 2011, and a smaller affair in Tacoma at the Washington State Historical Museum in 2013.

The first half of this year’s conference featured experts in the case illustrating the fundamentals of the case, and revealing new understandings of this iconic mystery.

First to speak was parachute expert, Mark Metzler, known in DB Cooper chat rooms as “377.” Metzler described in detail the differences in construction between military and civilian parachutes, claiming that skydivers using sport chutes such as the Pioneer Steinthal that was found unused on Cooper’s plane when it landed for refueling in Reno, Nevada, must deploy at speeds below 150 mph. However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds. Cooper’s plane, Flight 305 was traveling closer to 200 mph when Cooper jumped, and thus the military chute that might have been aboard, such as a NB-6 or NB-8 – both emergency parachutes for navy fliers – would have been adequate. Metzler said that the NB-8 would most likely contain a 28-foot C-9 parachute, whereas the NB-6 would contain a 26-foot conical chute.

But the exact nature of the parachute DB Cooper used is shrouded in mystery. The FBI’s technical expert on parachutes, Earl Cossey, says Cooper had a NB-6 or NB-8. However, Norman Hayden, whom FBI documents reveal delivered these back chutes to NWO and owned them, says he only gave civilian Pioneer rigs containing Steinthals. FBI documents and statements by case agents vary greatly on this subject and Cooper World reels, trying to resolve this dilemma. Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.

Next up was yours truly, talking about the money find at Tina Bar in 1980. I discussed three apparent money finds at this Columbia River beach, about fifteen miles downstream from where the 2018 Conference was held.

The first money find was the iconic discovery of three bundles of twenties by Brian Ingram, the 8-year old kid smoothing a sandy stretch of strand for his family to roast hot dogs. On Sunday, February 10, 1980, his fingers scraped across the top of the bundles and then he dug them out. They were all in severely weathered condition, compressed, and missing the corners and edges. Subsequent examination of the serial numbers revealed that these bills were from the Cooper ransom, and this discovery remains the only incontrovertible piece of evidence in NORJAK.

The second money find occurred three days later when FBI agents from the Portland Division, under the command of SA Ralph Himmelsbach, descended on the beach and started digging in the sand where Brian had found his three bundles. Himmelsbach says his team found shards of money in the original discovery area down to a depth of three feet.

The Public Information Officer on the scene, Dorwin Schroeder, has told many researchers that they found pieces of money stretching over an area 20-feet in all directions from the spot where Brian found his twenties. Schroeder also says that the shards were recovered from depths of 3-4 feet, and some were as big as 2-3 inches across. A KATU-TV video shows these larger pieces of ransom money and their placement into Plasticine evidence envelopes. However, none of these envelopes are in evidence in Seattle, and as far as is known have never been seen in public. The only money pieces in FBI possession that have been witnessed, such as by the Citizen Sleuth Team in 2009 and 2011, are hundreds of itsy-bitsy pieces that look more like dust particles than remnants of a twenty-dollar bill.

Himmelsbach says that all the money recovered at T-Bar went to Seattle, but he retired from the Bureau two weeks after the money find, and his subsequent investigations of the money are unknown. But his PIO, SA Schroeder, took over his skyjacking duties at the Portland FBI office, and he told this reporter that he assumed a passive perspective on the case, only responding to clues brought into the FBI by the public. Thus, it is understood that after the February money find at T-Bar, the rest of the Columbia River river bank was never searched for more money or evidence – not even Cooper’s body.

Into that breach DB Cooper researcher Galen Cook began contacting beach owners near Tina Bar and talked to local fishermen. Cook says that he found two men who were teenagers in 1980, and they say that they fished the river regularly in the T-Bar area. They claim that in January 1980 – one month before the Brian Ingram find – they found dozens of torn corners of twenty-dollar bills laying in the sand about 100 feet downstream from Brian’s spot. This third discovery remains uncorroborated, and thus is highly controversial.

The next speaker was Tom Kaye, the head of the Citizen Sleuth Team (CST). Kaye discussed the particles found on the tie reportedly left behind by DB Cooper, in particular the recent discovery of 100,000 rare earth minerals and other exotic or unusual chemical deposits.

First was a history of the initial examination by the CST using their electron microscope. They found hundreds of particles, and most prominent was pure titanium.

In 1971, titanium was not common,” said Kaye, “and was not used in sporting goods as it is today, and was found mostly in aviation applications, such as Boeing’s SST.” But the SST uses titanium alloys, so the CST explored the titanium mining and extraction process to see where pure Ti could be found in quantity and how it might land on a thin, black tie.

Kaye and his CST found that titanium is extracted from “titanium sand” and was selectively removed by two different chemical processes. One, the Kroll Process, uses chlorine and the other, the Hunter Process, uses sodium to “suck out” the titanium from the sand.

However, the CST also found large amounts of mineral salts on the tie, and the sodium process leaves NaCl residues, which is the primary component of salt. Surprisingly, the sodium process is only used in one manufacturing plant, RMI, which is located in Illinois. Kaye and the CST thought that RMI might be the site where DB Cooper worked long enough as an engineer or manager to adsorb titanium and salt on his tie, but officials at RMI said they had no employees resembling the DB Cooper sketch working in the pre-skyjacking period.

Seemingly at a dead end, the tie investigation took a dramatic turn in 2015 when the Travel Channel interviewed Tom Kay for an Expedition Unknown episode on DB Cooper. During the resulting conversations, the host of the show, Josh Gates, decided to contribute the monies to examine the tie at a state-of-the art laboratory, the McCrone Institute in Illinois.

The McCrone labs used a high-end ASPEX 3025 SEM electron microscope to examine the tie particles. Kaye says they found additional Antimony, Cerium, Cerium Lanthanum, and other phosphors, and Barium, plus cutting tool and match-head residues, and elements of gold and platinum, presumably from the tie clip of other jewelry use with the tie. Also, the NaCl was an industrial type of salt, and not the kind of table salt found on French Fries. In addition, they also found a substance called “frit,” which is a powder used to fuse glasses together, and shards of stainless steel, but not regular steel.

Taken in sum, Kaye offered this analysis:

The phosphors, ceriums and antimony are indicative of cathode ray tube manufacturing. The cutting tool residues also suggest a manufacturing environment, as does the stainless steel and frit. Kaye said that the primary location for these kinds of elements would be the Tektronix plant in Portland, which was the leading manufacturer of oscilloscopes in the country in 1971. Lastly, the match head residues indicate a heavy smoker, and the tie itself suggests a manager or engineer.

This is the hottest lead in Cooper World,” Kaye pronounced.

As for the afternoon, the bulk of the time was dedicated to a rendition of suspects by their leading advocates. Peter Rouse, a resident of Astoria, Oregon, spoke about the connection between Norman DeWinter and Robert Rackstraw. Although highly personalized – Rouse talked about his personal involvement with DeWinter – he offered no new information on Rackstraw as DB Cooper.

But many Rackstraw advocates were in attendance, including Russ and Kristy Cooper, the residents of Portland who informed Tom Colbert of the possible DBC burial sites in LaConner, WA where the money and parachutes might be found. The Coopers and other individuals from that retrieval effort, such as Jim Erwin, were in the audience and spoke informally during the conference.

Bradley Collins, who has written a book claiming his father was DB Cooper, was also in attendance, but did not speak publicly. Nevertheless, he was active in smaller groupings.

Next on stage was Vern Jones, the publisher of the Walter Reca story, penned by Carl Laurin. Jones offered a detailed and authoritative description of the Reca saga. Jones also established a wonderful bonhomie with the audience and other DBC experts by saying, “I know that much of what I am going to tell you is going to rub you the wrong way, such as the flight path. I acknowledge that, and we want to be transparent about it, but it is the Walter Reca story as told by Carl Laurin. It’s what we’ve got.”

In essence, Walter Reca was a rough fellow and part-time thief who was an expert skydiver. In 1971 he decided that it was “Better to be Dead than Poor,” and stole NWO Flight 305. The Reca story has him landing in Cle Elum, WA, due east of Seattle and a long ways from the Victor-23 air corridor that DB Cooper was supposedly following south of Sea-Tac airport.

Later, Reca was absolved of this crime and recruited into a contract position for an unnamed intelligence agency of the United States Government. After a period of training where his “head was sculpted” Reca performed off-the-books operations, including assassinations, in 34 countries worldwide. Jones’ presentation of Reca’s passports was fascinating, with stamps and official certifications overflowing from the pages in dozens of languages.

Jones’ presentation was highly professional and well-received, even if widely doubted.

Lastly, Conference host and organizer, Eric Ulis, delivered his up-to-date analysis of Sheridan Peterson as the leading suspect for DB Cooper. New revelations included the secret bank account Peterson had in Singapore, and the fact that his second wife – with whom he lived in Nepal and was his primary alibi – was not dead as he had reported to the FBI, but rather, was still alive according to Peterson family members that Ulis has contacted in the past few weeks.

Peterson, 92, is living in central California. His “lightly fictionalized” account of the Vietnam War, An Idiot’s Frightful Laughter, has recently been published by the Cooperite known as “Snowmman” and was available for viewing at the Conference. It is for sale at Lulu.com, with all proceeds going to Peterson. Ulis and others feel that many of the elements of the DB Cooper skyjacking are confirmed or revealed in Peterson’s book, such as descriptions of harsh parachute jumps. Regardless, it is a searing war account and worthy of a read.

Following the Conference many attendees and presenters flocked to the Victor-23 pub in nearby Vancouver. The wateringhole is chummy craft brewery, with a wall mural depicting a Northwest Orient 727 discharging its passengers, and the good vibes of the Conference continued.

In fact, most of the presenters met there before the Conference. Mark Metzler, Eric Ulis, Tom Kaye and yours truly arrived there early in Friday evening, and met Dirk Wierenga and Dave S, who comprised the video crew from Principia filming the gathering. Vern Jones and his wife Irene joined us in the course of events. A Pilsner called “Skyjacker blonde” was delicious, as was rumored another Pilsner, the “Schaffner,” named after flight attendant Florence Schaffner, but was sold out. Further, the wall mural of Cooper’s 727 is actually a “200” series and not the 100 that Cooper flew, I was informed. The 200 has an aft fuselage door on the starboard side, which the 100 does not, besides the customary ventral aft stairways.

Both Friday and Saturday evenings numerous locals came by and shared a beer with us and the roomful of Cooperites, including podcasters Darren Schaefer, and his editor “Ben.” “Vince” from Olympia hung with us through the night and videoed many presenters and attendees for later broadcast.

On Saturday, I sat with Ron Bertrand, who runs the NW Escape Experience and features the DB Cooper Escape Room, where someone last summer broke in to rob the place and couldn’t get out and had to call 911 to be arrested and “freed,” so to speak.

Rob is a major DB Cooper figure in Portland. Very passionate and informed.

Clyde Lewis, the host of Portland’s Ground Zero Radio, came to the conference at the end of the afternoon and joined us at V-23. There he regaled us with his numerous encounters with DB Cooper suspect, Wolfgang Gossett, who died a few years ago in Depoe Bay, Oregon. Those two gentlemen were entangled in the extreme, with encounters in Utah, Oregon, talk radio, and personal healings. Lewis even lived two block away from Gossett’s last wife. Clyde should write a book about his personal relationship with “Wolfie,” and about Gossett regardless of the DB Cooper angle. Wolfie and Clyde are just two extraordinary, weird, fascinating guys.

Clyde also told us many stories from his Ground Zero radio show, which is broadcast nationally. His tales of research on the fringe, such as MKULTRA, Area 51, and reverse engineering of UFOs at Hangar 18 at Wright-Paterson were captivating. Many Cooperites loved it, as I did, but not all.

Another conferee at V-23 was Dan Wyatt, who runs the Kiggins Theatre in Portland. Wyatt produced a DB Cooper radio show there on Wednesday evening, which folks at V-23 said was fantastic.

One of the eye-catching dimensions of the conference – and the pub – was that half the folks were Millennials, 30-years and younger. I was impressed. They asked lots of questions, too. One woman named Katie asked questions all day and all evening, too. Took notes, too. First time I ever saw a marbleized notebook in a tavern….

Everyone I talked with thought the conference was a success and they now want an annual gathering. Most also want an “Ariel tavern-style” party to accompany the conference. Bryan Woodruff, son of Dona Elliott, the late owner of the Ariel Tavern and DB Cooper Party Hostess, was in attendance at V-23, and voiced support for these ideas.

One of the hallmarks of the conference, and certainly evenings at the Victor-23 pub, was the lack of animosity – the total opposite of the current bickering on the DB Cooper Forum. Some folks came into the conference in a cautious manner, such as Kristy Cooper and her husband Russ Cooper. When Kristy introduced herself to me, I said, “Ah, I have been tracking you two for a long time!”

“Yes, I know,” Kristy replied, with a slight smile. Nevertheless, we talked about working cooperatively in the future, and that might be a possibility. But their leader, Tom Colbert, needs to give the okay for Kristy and Russ to feel comfortable with that arrangement. But she bought my book, so….

As for next year, Eric Ulis says that he is committed to producing another Conference. He also announced that Mark Metzler made a substantial contribution to this year’s Conference, which was free to the public. Details will follows as plans are developed.

Conference, 2018, Eric, r, Mark, c, BAS, l at V-23

Pictured: Eric Ulis, (r), Mark Metzler, (c), Bruce A. Smith, (l). Picture courtesy of Eric Ulis.

Conference, 2018, Tom Kaye, l, Bradley Collins, r.

Tim Kaye, (l), with Bradley Collins, (r)

Conference, 2018, flgith manual and NB-8

NB-8, top, with 727 flight manual, lower

conference-2018-reserve-chute-727-flight-manual1.jpg

Reserve chute, lower, with flight manual, above

Conference, 2018, Eric giving his introductory talk, distant shot

Eric Ulis giving his introductory remarks at the beginning of the 2018 DB Cooper Conference. Edgewater Columbia Country Club, Portland, OR

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296 Responses to DB Cooper – Cooperites celebrate the 47th Anniversary of the skyjacking with conference

  1. Galen Cook, Attorney at Law says:

    Nice report, Bruce. It may have been a partial error on my part relating the info to you, but the two brothers found only “one” corner of a Cooper twenty, not dozens. I contacted them in about 2013 and they agreed to meet me at Tena’s Bar where they directed me to the exact location.
    Their find was in January 1980 about a month preceeding the Ingram find. The location was about 150 feet downstream of Ingram. They took the $20 corner home to show their parents. The brothers were 9 and 11 years old. They had no idea what they were looking at until AFTER they read about the Ingram find in February. What the young fisherman’s find indicated to me is that (1) there may have been another burial source downstream, and (2) possibly more than three packets involved. Maybe both.
    On another topic, I never met Tom Kaye, however I spent an hour with him on the phone several years ago. I respect his in-depth analysis regarding the tie particles. The only problem from my perspective is that before you can derive the conclusions Tom has provided, you have to first prove that the tie was always owned by Cooper. I believe Cooper purchased his disguise costume at a Goodwill type of store just prior to the hijacking. That would negate any subsequent theory as to Cooper’s workplace or professional status based on types of particles found on the tie.

  2. David & Susie Johnson says:

    Thanks Bruce, for sending me the report of the conference.

    I do hope that I will be able to attend, from the UK, at sometime in the future.

    I still find the initial finding of the notes at TB, to be highly unusual to say the least. I have already given Galen and yourself my comments on the condition of the notes. Although it is difficult to be sure from just looking at photos, but I still think they had been there for a max of two years.

    Greetings to all from the United Kingdom.

    David

  3. shutter45 says:

    However, $6,200 of ransom money was found on a Columbia River beach in 1980?????

    • brucesmith49 says:

      The sum of $6,200 comes from the latest count of the bills and fragments, in particular, the auction house that Brian gave the majority of his bills has uncovered additional bills that had been overlooked initially due to the compression of the bundles.

  4. EU says:

    I really question the $6,200 figure. Remember, this updated figure is being attributed to the auction house and their abilities.

    However, The auction house has examined less than half the total bills–the FBI has 14 bills, the insurance company has “half” of what was left and Brian had the other half. As far as I know the auction house has never seen the insurance company’s portion. Therefore, how do you arrive at a $6,200 figure based up the FBI’s 14 bills and Brian’s portion?

    I believe the total is no greater than $5,800 to $6,000.

    • brucesmith49 says:

      Yes, the best way to characterize the amount of money is to say, “approximately $6,200.” The exact amount is not known. 6K may be the upper limit, but I recall the auction house speculating that the number they thought that was in the T-Bar find was $6, 200 – and thus the amount of bills available for auction potentially. That number would determine the relative value of any individual bill when it goes to auction.

  5. shutter45 says:

    They found new serial numbers, not bills…

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      If they found NEW NUMBERS then they found new pieces of a bill! One sewrial number oper bill. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

  6. brucesmith49 says:

    Ah, that is another element to consider. Please tell us more, Shut.

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      What is wrong with you people? There is only one serial number per bill. If they find a new number never logged before then they are finding pieces of bills those serial numbers are part of! This is common sense!

  7. Terry Battcher says:

    Whether the tie came from a thrift store or not, the fact that it had such a large list of highly specialized particles on it, is very uncanny indeed. The odds of any one particular person getting the sheer number of these same specific particles on their tie, is astronomically rather improbable. Perhaps a research laboratory is a more likely source? Even so, why would so many of these same particles be on that ‘one tie?’ To me, it’s more like this particular evidence was intentionally placed on that tie. Which of these same particles could have been airborne, which would not? At first glance, it’s as though whomever had that tie was a slob…but would a slob have a job in such an area that had all of these same kind of particles? Look at this same puzzle from other angles: Even if it was a research lab source, how could have it have been so sloppy with the samples? How about a foreign enemy agent having sampled these particles by sticking his finger in the samples and then rubbing his of her tie? You’ve got to kick these ideas around, kids!

    In other words, how could one look at this same overall evidence and then fixate only on the particles of pure titanium as being the place to go looking? Such a line of reasoning is very obviously pure bullshit! That tie evidence is a very sophisticated puzzle indeed, especially so when ALL things are carefully considered. Yes, I know about the Tektronix idea, but does that account for ALL of these same particles? I doubt that it does. Maybe so?

    Another bunch of bullshit is to ASSUME that a rather large parachute was deployed at 200 miles per hour in the Cooper caper! That same parachute would pop open almost immediately and render the person wearing it unconscious, at a minimum, but probably kill them eventually. A falling body will speed up to about 80-90 MPH, and that would also represent a very sudden tug in regular use, but there would certainly have been some “give,” with a slower opening of the chute. Compare the analogy of using a tow chain vs a tow strap to pull a vehicle, the chain has no “give,” and as such it is more likely to cause damage to one vehicle or the other, or both. The tow strap has more of a bungee cord characteristic to it. If Cooper died in that jump, the dogs would have picked up the scent…period! To follow this crime properly, you really have to question and examine any and ALL lines reasoning.

    Consider this…once a person has certain ideas in their head for any length of time, those same ideas don’t easily leave them. Most people would readily assume that it’s absurd to consider a linkage between these cases: the California Zodiac killer, Norjak, OCCK and the Ramsey case…. that is until they acquire an open mind and carefully examine the core evidence which shows the linkage, and add to that, that they’ve had time to process the information too. I’m telling you kids…this same UNSUB rigged the evidence to prove that what I’m saying is true, but it took me quite awhile to “process” the information too, in order to get to this point. And, I’ve done so and I’m not looking for fame, I value my privacy too. Again, I do this stuff out of a sense of duty.

    MKULTRA linkage too? Probably so from what I’ve seen.

  8. shutter45 says:

    Terminal velocity of an average jumper would be around 120 mph. the McNally hijacking was much faster than Cooper. he jumped at speeds of 300 mph. he was banged up but survived. he didn’t use a backpack, he used the front chute.

  9. shutter45 says:

    Terry, you overlook a lot of things. the dogs could pickup a scent sure, if they were in the right area. also, nobody knows how Cooper bailed out of the plane. could of pulled on the stairs or did a free fall to terminal. they have a rather large area of possibilities where Cooper jumped and they focused on an area surrounding Ariel. one memo states it’s possible he jumped very close to the Columbia. that’s a rather large area to try and find a scent, chute, or body. it’s about 23 miles from the Columbia to Ariel and then several miles wide. huge area to search.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Shutter45, I think that you’re the one overlooking a lot of things. The FBI’s FOIA files clarify, via two separate sources, that the jump was near Le Center, WA, several miles east of the Columbia river, hence the FBI’s phony search near Ariel, because of the crosswind away from the Columbia river. No one opens the chute on the stairs, not at approx. 200 knots, and survives.( Don’t know where you and you alone get a 300 MPH airspeed from?) Dogs can pick up a scent from several miles away, depending on the wind. That whole area was thoroughly and repeatedly gleaned. Yeah, no chute, Tena bar doesn’t jibe for a location. Bruce keep insisting on $6200 cash, while everyone else says $5800. Everyone at this MB seems to be ignoring several things, like the core four letters, etc. Like the 200 plus special materials on the tie. Like the attache’ case. BTW, the maps clearly show that the Colombia river is not near LeCenter, nor Ariel. Searching Merwin damn was phony and misleading by the FBI brass. Most free fall jumpers stick their limbs out in a free fall, in order to slow their decent to 80-90 MPH. The evidence says that the UNSUB got away. Tena Bar evidence doesn’t jibe. This particular skyjacking was a very sophisticated and well planned operation, he had ALL of his ducks in a row. Whether $6200 or $5800, where’s the bulk of the loot?! Again, the taunting documents show that their author had inside crime scene knowledge, which is more support showing that he survived. The Playboy cutouts are what I’m mainly referring to here. BTW, you think that this rather smart UNSUB individual is gonna hike out of the wilderness in loafers? The core four letters anchor everything in this Cooper caper. I think that the many messages in this operation was what he was after and not the loot.

      • shutter45 says:

        Terry, what scent did the dogs search for?
        nothing in the files give any real indication of a positive location of the jump. they will tell you today “we think, or we believe he jumped (here)”

  10. TC says:

    Bruce making a name for himself. He was the guest on a radio talk show in Spokane, WA, today ….. talking about ….. what else….. DBC.

    • brucesmith49 says:

      Thanks you, TC, for the kudos. Patriot Radio in Spokane. Caleb Collier was the host. I was filling in for Galen who was the original guest, but Galen had to be in court and asked me to cover.

  11. Marty Andrade says:

    Reblogged this on Marty Andrade and commented:
    Detailed report on the DB Cooper Forum last week in Portland:

  12. Terry Battcher says:

    Shutter45, the FBI files show that a Portland based radar station and NWA’s flight data recorder concurred that their data pointed to a jump location just east of the center of Le Center, WA. This is the only area in that part of the world that has large areas of conjoined plowed fields, and it’s right near I5. Do you want me to cite the FBI FOIA file location too?

    I like this thread because it deals with details about the tie. This whole business about a Tektronix inc connection is what caught my interest and brought me here. Yeah, I know, I’m the crazy SOB that links the Ramsey case, but the evidence drives this situation. As a matter of fact, it clarified the evidence that I was seeing on the Ramsey ransom note. I’ll come back to this point, but first this from Bruce’s article:

    The McCrone labs used a high-end ASPEX 3025 SEM electron microscope to examine the tie particles. Kaye says they found additional Antimony, Cerium, Cerium Lanthanum, and other phosphors, and Barium, plus cutting tool and match-head residues, and elements of gold and platinum, presumably from the tie clip of other jewelry use with the tie. Also, the NaCl was an industrial type of salt, and not the kind of table salt found on French Fries. In addition, they also found a substance called “frit,” which is a powder used to fuse glasses together, and shards of stainless steel, but not regular steel.

    Taken in sum, Kaye offered this analysis:

    The phosphors, ceriums and antimony are indicative of cathode ray tube manufacturing. The cutting tool residues also suggest a manufacturing environment, as does the stainless steel and frit. Kaye said that the primary location for these kinds of elements would be the Tektronix plant in Portland, which was the leading manufacturer of oscilloscopes in the country in 1971. Lastly, the match head residues indicate a heavy smoker, and the tie itself suggests a manager or engineer.

    “This is the hottest lead in Cooper World,” Kaye pronounced.”

    I agree, it is by far a very hot lead. On the second page and second line of the Ramsey ransom note, is the crossed out word “delivery”. The three examples of the word “delivery” on the first page are of very key importance, and clearly show intentional murder and threats to John Ramsey. Using my ‘paint’ feature in Windows to isolate the cross-out portion from the word “delivery,” I got the image of an old time boat-tailed speedster. At first this queer little image didn’t make much sense, because it has a image of a figurine lifting the front of the car and an a-frame “jack” stand in place. Then came a few years later the Tektronix hint from Bruce A. Smith on YouTube, and I then recalled that early service manuals for Tektronix oscilloscopes have the drawing of a midget racer in the horizontal sweep amplifier section, to depict the high speed CRT beam retrace function. A midget racer is a boat-tailed speedster, and a person can lift the front of a midget racer by themselves and put it on a “jack’ stand too. Bear in mind that this is only one area of hints linking these two cases. I think that a thorough study of the function of Lanthanum Tantalate alloy particles, is of very key importance to study and understanding of the Cooper caper.

    Would you rather parachute into a ground target in a plowed field near LeCenter, or risk landing randomly in boulders near Ariel and/or risk getting a pine tree up your ass?

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Go read FBI file at 2941, Chapter 13, material as released at FBI VAULT. That one page document will show that a package was delivered by FBI Seattle FO to SFO FO on 12/2/71 which contained info on exact flightpath of 305. No doubt, charting generated by civilian or military radar data.

      • shutter45 says:

        who is debating the flight path?

      • TC says:

        Shutter, do you know the true flight path? If yes, what’s your basis of knowledge? If acquired from others, how do you know that their information is accurate?

      • Terry Battcher says:

        Gypsy23, yes, that sounds about right. The location of the rear door placard find, suggests that the plane was on the accepted flight path, which supports the statement and find that that same pathway was very near LeCenter. BTW, I think the finding of frit on the tie is very interesting indeed.

        I guess that what it’s gonna take, is to show exactly how Cooper acquired his ground target. In the meanwhile consider this: RCA, for one source, sells or has sold business card devices that convert infrared directly into visible red light. To use them, you’d charge them up under a bright light, then test for a flashing pattern coming from an infrared remote control. Infrared controls are the way TV’s and other devices are controlled these days. The infrared or IR receiver, which is a modified photo diode that’s in the TV set, undoubtedly uses special materials related to those found on the Cooper tie. These have a special optical filter in front of them that is somewhat purple in color, which serves to filter or reduced ambient light, which is exactly what Cooper’s wrap-around sunglasses could have done.

        However, Cooper could also have simply done a timed free fall, pulling the rip cord nearer the ground. The city of LeCenter was probably well lit at the time of the day.

  13. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Fkyjack says: FLYJACK says:
    November 26, 2018 at 10:46 am ; There weren’t new bills found.. there were new bill numbers identified.. big difference.

    If new bill numbers are found and numbers are unique to a bill then doesnt that mean new never before counted pieces of a bill were found/identified? Flyjack needs to learn some logic! Ha Ha Ha

    • FLYJACK says:

      Nope. False assumption.

      Not all bills had legible serial numbers. They put together frags to ID serial numbers not new bills.

  14. PARDON ME BUT says:

    I am astounded. Every printed paper bill has a unique serial number, no other printed paper bill has! That is a fact. Serial numbers are unique and used to identify each individual bill. Serial numbers and the printed paper they are on are INSEPARABLE! Like the nose on your head. Most people only have on nose per head!

    But dyslexiacs could get this confused and claim otherwise! Dyslexia is a learning disorder that involves difficulty reading due to problems identifying speech sounds and learning how they relate to letters and words (decoding). Also called reading disability, dyslexia affects areas of the brain that process language. …

    A person with Dyslexi could claim that serial numbers and the paper bills they are on do not go together! And when new serial numbers are found that does not mean new paper bills have been found! People with Dyslexia often get basic logic confused …

    • FLYJACK says:

      In fact, complete bills have two printed serial numbers..

      TBAR bills were not complete, basic logic.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        Dumbass. One serial number per bill. Any discovery of a new previously unseen serial number is a discovery of the paper the damned serial number is printed on! Ie. a new bill. Serial numbers and paper bills go together. What does “TBAR bills were not complete, basic logic.” have to do with this. You keep appealing to BASIC LOGIC but you have none. I guess you are just one more Cooper Vortex Leader – ha ha ha. But you are entertaining in your moronism – keep it coming clown. Ha Ha Ha.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        How stupid will this get!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Your argument would only be valid if all 290 bills were ID’d via their serial numbers, they weren’t. Many bills and fragments were not ID’d. The premise is bogus and the logic is flawed.

        This bill is not ID’d…
        https://historical.ha.com/itm/transportation/aviation/-d-b-cooper-1971-ransom-money-unknown-series-20-federal-reserve-note-certified-and-encapsulated-by-pcgs-currency-with/a/6006-47237.s

        Sounds like Meyer’s nonsense… the Cooper world is full of these ignorant trolls.

        There are two numbers printed on each bill. THE SAME NUMBER. That means two opportunities to ID a single bill.

        This is really really simple, the FBI did not ID 290 serial numbers from the bills and fragments. In fact, they have never shown how they got that 290 number, but there are only two ways. They can count the bills with and without identifiable serial numbers but it wouldn’t be very accurate or they could compare the known serial numbers to Micro list. They claimed it was in the same order. If you could match and ID the top and bottom bills then there would be 100 per packet. Maybe they did it that way.

  15. Gypsy23 says:

    This is starting to sound like the good ol days at the DZ………..

  16. Terry Battcher says:

    PARDON YOUR BUTT..lighten up!

    Reverse engineer the Cooper caper kids…he had his ducks in a row. The crime was a paramilitary type of operation, CIA stuff, it had to have taken a thorough knowledge base, that’s what the many pieces of evidence shows, when taken all together.

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      We now know how stupid this will get.

      Let me guess. Flyjerk has a suspect too! Odds are 100% He fits the profile.

      Can I get bread sticks with this ? Extra cheese?

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        Everyone one please remember: (Flyjack says) There are two numbers printed on each bill. THE SAME NUMBER. That means two opportunities to ID a single bill.

        This has nothing to do with anything but Flyjack throws these things out to confuse and redirect the original question which was at issue. Flyjack has studied Robert M Blevins!

        Watch the peanut vanish under the cup! Good luck.

      • Marla says:

        I dont think FLYJACK and Robert Blevins are on the same flight path. Those two wouldn’t last together for 5 minutes.

  17. Terry Battcher says:

    Well, it would be nice if we can keep the discussion civil. Whether it was $6200 or $5800 isn’t all that big of a deal. It’s whether the forensic evidence shows whether those same bills actually spent time at the T-bar location or somewhere else. They don’t belong at T-bar. Could they have fallen off of the rear stairs and into where the Columbia runs east-west?

    The evidence that the UNSUB jumped near LeCenter, is pretty compelling.

  18. Terry Battcher says:

    I listened to Uncle Bruce’s latest radio show interview on YouTube last night, it was pretty interesting. I’ll review it again.

  19. Terry Battcher says:

    From Uncle Bruce’s article: First to speak was parachute expert, Mark Metzler, known in DB Cooper chat rooms as “377.” Metzler described in detail the differences in construction between military and civilian parachutes, claiming that skydivers using sport chutes such as the Pioneer Steinthal that was found unused on Cooper’s plane when it landed for refueling in Reno, Nevada, must deploy at speeds below 150 mph. However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds. Cooper’s plane, Flight 305 was traveling closer to 200 mph when Cooper jumped, and thus the military chute that might have been aboard, such as a NB-6 or NB-8 – both emergency parachutes for navy fliers – would have been adequate. Metzler said that the NB-8 would most likely contain a 28-foot C-9 parachute, whereas the NB-6 would contain a 26-foot conical chute.

    But the exact nature of the parachute DB Cooper used is shrouded in mystery. The FBI’s technical expert on parachutes, Earl Cossey, says Cooper had a NB-6 or NB-8. However, Norman Hayden, whom FBI documents reveal delivered these back chutes to NWO and owned them, says he only gave civilian Pioneer rigs containing Steinthals. FBI documents and statements by case agents vary greatly on this subject and Cooper World reels, trying to resolve this dilemma. Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.

    ” However, military parachutes are more rugged, with shroud lines enveloping the entire canopy, and can handle much higher speeds.”(?) Yeah, but what about the human body, can it handle a sudden stop from much higher speeds? Kind of a bag of mixed information here, I’d say. So again, where would you rather land? In a nice plowed field in your penny loafers, where the cross wind gives you a nice little “step off,” or risk getting a pine tree in suppository form, or break a ankle or leg on some rocks, then have to hike out of the wilderness with or without the loot? That would be kind of dumb in an otherwise very sophisticated and meticulously planned out and executed crime, I’d say! The FBI’s FOIA records are clear, Cooper jumped very near LeCenter, not Ariel. The Ariel location is based on a series of false assumptions.

    “Adding to the struggle Cossey was murdered in 2013, and his death is also unsolved.” Yeah, how about that? What are the chances that someone is gonna go out of their way to bump off this one particular guy in his own garage? Where’s the motive? Who have we all noted the presence of in the Cooper community orb, that makes not so thinly veiled death threats in recent times? Hmmm?

  20. FLYJACK says:

    Shutter, when you read this remove my account and all my posts from your forum. I have had it with the disrespect and ignorance there, long overdue… There is no critical discussion there, NONE.

    • MNastt says:

      FLYJACK: reconsider this request. Cooper case causes lots of hard feelings because of some very strong personalities. Look at Blevins. He would never ask to be removed, but removed he was. Everyone wanted his ass gone. So think about it again.
      Is a disagreement with one or two individuals worth your departure, when no one else has complained about you?

  21. brucesmith49 says:

    Yeah, Fly, I’ll miss you. Please stick around.

    • FLYJACK says:

      I’ll stick around just not on that forum, Shutter has now blocked my IP.. but somebody tell him I already posted “NO ACCENT” per FBI… clearly he doesn’t read my comments as I suspected. Maybe he can find it before he deletes my account and posts..

      It is the environment that I have lost all respect for. Closed minded, adversarial, combative, abusive and in some cases gross ignorance/bad logic. IMO, it should be supportive, respectful, open minded, compassionate and collaborative. That doesn’t mean you have to agree but I see no benefit in participating in that current environment. It is toxic for intellectual exploration and critical thinking.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        And he cried “wee wee wee wee all the way home” …. after insulting multiple people over years then finally being given time off, then finally tangling with the Mod! Multiple people turns thumbs down on his suspect and some of his crazy ideas … so now its their fault and Shutter is running an unfair forum which he can;t abide? Hey Bozo – you want a free egg on your beer too? You want worshipers? You want apologies? Bruce will give you sympathy but he wont be able to engineer a political revolution for you! This is fricking hilarious! Maybe it will lead to the first marriage in Cooperdom? Ha Ha Ha.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Hello, MeyerLouie…

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        I thought Meyer was banned by Bruce.

  22. brucesmith49 says:

    What you’re looking for sounds ideal, Fly. I haven’t seen it yet, neither at the DZ, here, and certainly not at the Forum. Perhaps a private, more secure “college” of Cooper minds is needed. My email is brucesmith At rainierconnect Dot com. Feel free to share your thoughts on a more individualized basis.

    • M.L. says:

      Bruce us always fair minded.

    • PARDON ME BUT says:

      “college” of Cooper minds is needed” _ including you of course. Are you going to self destruct, explode with accusations, and leave Shutter’s forum too, the way Flyboy did? We will watch for it at Shutter;s forum, if you are man enough. Maybe you and Flyboy can show us what a ““college” of Cooper minds is needed” really is.

  23. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Website for undiscovered geniuses – http://www.ideachampions.com/undiscovered_genius.shtml
    Its the only alternative to a Cooper forum –

  24. Terry Battcher says:

    FLYJACK says:
    December 8, 2018 at 7:50 am

    Meyer,, why so much anger and hate, not to mention repeated threats of violence?

    I agree, why don’t you go the way of Blevins? Your PARDON ME BUT handle and persona is harassment. You’re acting like an uncivilized jerk.

    • MNastt says:

      That wasn’t Meyer Louie.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Either Meyer or Georger… doesn’t matter.. ignorant trolls are a dime a dozen

        Shutter…. Delete my account and posts. You can keep my IP blocked of course.

        FBI agent: “I observed the pilot of the Boeing 727 airplane, Eastern Airlines Flight XXX, exit down the rear ramp. The pilot whom I had observed’ earlier sitting in the cockpit of the aircraft was closely followed by a white male, 40-45 years of age, 5’10”- 6′ in height, 175-185 pounds, olive complexion with dark curly hair, combed straight back. This individual wore a dark suit with a white shirt and tie;”

  25. shutter45 says:

    Fly, your account was removed days ago. the post remain. they are part of a record and benefit nobody removing them. everything posted on a public forum becomes property of that forum.

    Shutter

    • FLYJACK says:

      Technically that is true, but you offered to remove before, now you won’t.. since you never read them I’d think they are irrelevant.

      That is precisely why I never posted the really good stuff…

  26. shutter45 says:

    The IP should no longer be blocked. I first removed your posting privileges until I seen you continuing to sign in on a site you despise so much and put a full block which automatically bans the IP address. then later I removed your account. the IP should be released from any ban. I had no reason to block you from viewing the site permanently.

    Shutter

    • FLYJACK says:

      I don’t despise it, I just reached the end of my patience, discussion there is pointless, a waste of time, no benefit. Toxic. Many members agree with me.. they read it but rarely or never post. You fail to recognize it has become DZ V2.0..

      I checked a few times to see if you removed my posts and deleted my account.. I had to laugh when you were asking questions that I had already posted the answers to… You never read my posts, obviously there is no reason to continue there, a waste of time.

      Some irony, you don’t read my posts, block me then won’t delete them.. if you won’t delete them, I suggest you actually read them to answer some of your questions, but remember I held back the really good stuff as I never trusted that environment, I was right not to.

      Good Luck, I do hope it gets better there. I couldn’t wait any longer.

  27. brucesmith49 says:

    So Fly, what’s the “good stuff?”

    By the way, when I suggested that folks who want to communicate with other Cooperites but don’t want the nastiness common to the DBC Forum or here, I was simply suggesting that people email kindred spirits. I was not suggesting that a secret, private, underground “New DB Cooper Forum” be started.

    Or call those you would like to chat with. My phone number is in the “contact” section of the MN, for those that are interested.

  28. brucesmith49 says:

    NOTICE TO ALL, ESPECIALLY NEW COMMENTERS:

    I will be in New York for the holidays and not monitoring this site with anything close to the same regularity. Hence, two things will happen. First, bad behavior here will not be corrected until my return – then justice will be swift and decisive.

    But more importantly, new posters here will not see their postings until I can get to “approve” their post. That will take time. Dave Shutter has given me a tablet that will give me some Internet access once I figure out how to work it. Further, I am hoping that Santa will give me a laptop so I can maintain some kind of regular cyber connectivity to everyone and everything, but that is still a Christmas wish at this point.

    In the meantime, Merry Christmas to all. And I hope everyone lit their eighth candle last night, too. Good yontif! See y’all in the new year.

  29. shutter45 says:

    Fly, you sound just like Blevins and the rest. put up or shut up dude. that line is so old. and just like Blevins you take things out of context!

    I told you why you were blocked. this all started with you wanting no part of the forum. removing comments gives broken threads with people trying to figure out what was said. Georger asked the same and I didn’t remove his either.

    when is the movie coming out?

    • FLYJACK says:

      Shutter, I like you, you are nice guy but just not too bright, you can’t even figure out the simple stuff when I posted the answers for you. You don’t know what you don’t know.. my purpose has never been to convince anyone of anything, unlike most others. You think I actually care what people think, I am not selling anything. Your repeated accusations are false, insulting and disrespectful.. your reasoning and logic poor and self awareness vague.. There is no middle ground, no discourse from there, move on. I wish your forum success. It just wasn’t a place for me.

      • MNastt says:

        Fly, where are you going to post your “good stuff?” Some of us would like to know.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Good question,, I have enough for a book but I am not interested in writing a book, not my thing. I am really only doing this for myself. Sorry Shutter. There is still more info coming and the research hasn’t concluded.. It can’t be presented in fragmented bits like Shutter’s forum tended to, it needs a comprehensive context. Whether it leads to a resolution or not it is really fascinating stuff. At some point, I’ll have to figure out some way to pull it all together but it would be a big job and I am lazy. I like the critical thinking, research, discovery and puzzles, not presenting the solution.

      • shutter45 says:

        Typical Blevins response. are we going to go 100 comments like him now? you keep saying you don’t care what anyone thinks but you have posted over 200 times the same stuff, and now you are here?

        I don’t pay attention to some of the things you post. that doesn’t make me stupid! I just get tired of the same old thing. one tends to gloss over them. you are similar to Blevins when it come to being confronted. you put things on the table for all to see and see what happens. you get mad when it doesn’t go your way. I have no control over that.

        Snow asked you over a week ago other than fitting and looking like Cooper what else do you have to add…(crickets) you never responded to him. see comment below.

        “So basically, you’re just saying Frederick Hahneman was Cooper?
        The main “evidence” is similarity to the sketch?
        Or is there other evidence?
        I’m not sure what’s new. Surely the FBI had all the “info” you’re claiming…and they decided “not Cooper”
        Why do you decide “Cooper” instead?”

        Personally, as I’ve said in the past. this was a short period after Cooper and I tend to believe they looked into him very well. if not, then they are the stupid one’s. it’s not a suspect someone tried to push on them to look at. they knew exactly who he was.

      • FLYJACK says:

        You just don’t get it..

        You are again insulting me from a position of sheer ignorance. That is the very essence of your forum. I hoped you would rise above it. There are some good people there, give them space to intellectually explore without fear of threats, insults and dismissiveness.

        I am not interested in responding to the same insults you engaged in on your forum and bring it here, if you want to contact me privately about something specific, feel free to do so.

  30. brucesmith49 says:

    How about a nice, long essay at the Mountain News? Or a multi-part treatment of your findings?

    • FLYJACK says:

      I thought about that but it isn’t quite complete and hate writing, this subject is too complex for an essay. I’ll think about some way to do it.

  31. brucesmith49 says:

    Keep that pen moving, Fly…

    In the meantime, I ask everyone to consider this:

    The DB Cooper Corned Beef College To Meet in NYC

    Despite Georger’s rumors at the DB Cooper Forum, the only real DB Cooper College that I know of is the NY Corned Beef Colloquium of Cooperites. We will be meeting at the 2nd Ave Deli in Manhattan, either shortly before Christmas or after the 1st of the Year. Best pastrami in the Big Apple, Dice says, so I say we head there. Email me for details, or call me in New York, where I am heading Dec. 13 from WA for an extended stay. Email me this week in WA to make sure I know you want to get the details on when and where, and my number in NY. It’s a landline. I will also have my cell phone, but reception in the family home on LI is lousy. Again, please email me for the number.

    Dave Shutter has given me a tablet to stay in touch with y’all by email, in an effort to prevent a repeat of certain recent events that were slightly unpleasant… re: last summer and the unexpected visits by the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department AND certain folks from Cooper World… But I gotta learn how to use it, get Internet connections, and such.

    Brian, Dovid, and all other dwellers of the Cooper Vortex in the NY-NJ-CT sector are welcome. I’m voting for a late lunch. 3 pm?

  32. EU says:

    Hey Bruce, we talked about this several months back. I may well be in your neighborhood sometime around New Year’s Day. Email me your NY number. I look forward to meeting some of the East Coast contingent.

  33. shutter45 says:

    I get it Fly, trust me.

  34. brucesmith49 says:

    TC, “Uncle Bruce” or “Cousin Brucie” are fine with me. But you can call me what you’d like. Just don’t call me late to dinner….

  35. brucesmith49 says:

    The Corned Beef College is weighing in. So far: Dice from the DBCF, but it has to be after 8pm, Lenny Depaul from a recent DB Cooper shoot on the Travel Channel – but not on Wednesday, Brian R and the “contingent” from New Jersey. But not Dovid, alas.

  36. Terry Battcher says:

    Corned Beef College…now I’m getting very hungry!
    I’ve post some comments from here to Nanette Barto’s MB, so I’m gonna share this comment that I just made on her/my Cooper thread, it’s intended to be “food for thought”:

    Nanette, I just reviewed the “DAN COoper” signature on the Northwest Orient Skyjack/ NORJACK ticket, and it even has a JT hint in the way the letter p was made. He used both upper and lower case letter o’s, which match up in his historical documents. He implied a letter z with the way he structured the letter N. He put the slanted crossbar in the capital letter A. All of it adds up as proof that he was the same person that sent the taunting letter’s and cutouts after the skyjacking. All Zodiac Jack 101, every bit of it. And yes, Jack Tarrance absolutely fits all of the criteria of the evidence. He is by far the best suspect in the NORJACK case. His writing on that ticket was very deliberately structured. The smaller letter o is the “hoopsnake” type of o, as found on the other documents and especially the Ramsey ransom note. ( actually, perhaps “DAN COopEr” would be a better description of the letter types on the airline ticket.)

  37. Terry Battcher says:

    By doing all of those deliberate details to the airline ticket signature, he encrypted that ticket. What FBI?

  38. Terry Battcher says:

    shutter45 says:
    December 10, 2018 at 12:45 pm

    Cooper didn’t write on the ticket….
    Please explain this remark to me. Yeah, for one thing his name wasn’t necessarily “Cooper.” What is your point, shutter45?

    • TC says:

      Shutter is saying that only the ticket agent wrote on the ticket. Cooper wouldn’t. He recalled all of his notes back and jumped with them. No traces.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        That’s not been the conventional report that I’ve heard. I’t been reported that the UNSUB filled out the ticket himself.

  39. brucesmith49 says:

    The question of who wrote the ticket is controversial. However, the overwhelming number of principals involved and investigators claim that the ticket agent filled out the ticket by himself and that Dan Cooper did not. Unfortunately, the ticket agent – and I forget his name – is deceased and can not answer the question more definitively.

    Fueling the controversy is Tom Colbert, who often and loudly claims that the “unsub” as you call him, filled out the ticket based upon a vague inference from Larry Carr.

    • TC says:

      That has never been the practice of ticket agents. They have always filled out the tickets.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Nevertheless, the ticket has the artifacts that I’ve pointed out. To me, the standout item is the letter p, having been constructed in two separated pieces. This same characteristic also stands out in the documents that followed the skyjacking, showing that he placed special emphasis on this particular detail. There are actually many more points that I can make about that ticket hand printing.

  40. brucesmith49 says:

    That has been the general understanding in Norjak, TC. In fact, Bill Mitchell presented his ticket to several investigators at eh DZ and the Forum to show that the handwriting between his tix and Cooper’s is similar enough to say that the same guy filled it out.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Yup, Colbert is the only one I know advancing the idea that Cooper wrote on the ticket.

      Bruce, I have a puzzle for you,,

      Tom Kaye discovered the silver nitrate on the blackened bills and concluded it was from FBI fingerprint testing that was never reported. That may be, however, I found that silver nitrate was also used as a marker for ransom/stolen money, a precurser to dye-packs. They sprayed or dipped some bills in silver nitrate, bills would turn black and be “marked” as well as the hands of anyone who touched them. It is more likely the FBI would withhold bill marking than fingerprint testing.

      If the TBAR bills were black prior to the FBI then the silver nitrate may be from “marking”.

      The Fazio’s and Brian claimed there were black bills.. before the FBI could fingerprint them.

      “Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others had darkened in color. “They still had rubber bands on them,” Ingram says. “I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn’t really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn’t been touched.”

      Fazio..
      “Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition.”

      If the TBAR bills were marked with silver nitrate that may explain why they were discarded.

      If you can reach out to Brian,,

      1. Ask him if some bills were blackened before the FBI took them? Fazio?

      2. Ask him where “exactly” the rubber band fragments were found? tops and bottoms of all 3 packets or only some? Try to determine if each individual packet was entirely surrounded by rubber bands or the three packets could have been banded together as one bundle.

      Another possibility is.. if the FBI did mark with silver nitrate they may have rewrapped only the packets they marked..

      • TC says:

        One other note: the Ingrams washed the Bill’s with liquid dishwashing soap before taking them to the FBI.

      • brucesmith49 says:

        Will do in the near future. Family matters and the holidays are first, though.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Bruce,

        No rush, we have time before the NORJAK 50th anniversary…

        If accurate, with Brian and Fazio “apparently” seeing black bills before the FBI could fingerprint test then the bills may have been marked with silver nitrate and discarded by the hijacker. That would undermine the “died in the jump” narrative and open up new possibilities. Theoretically, of course.

        Tom Kaye looked for early images of blackened bills but found none. He used that to conclude the silver nitrate was from later fingerprint tests which were never disclosed. However, if the FBI did mark the bills and held that back they wouldn’t allow such images. Blackened bills did show up in 1986 images. Brian’s and Fazio’s statements seem to contradict Toms’ premise.. Can they be confirmed?

        It all hinges on you Bruce, the entire case may turn here, no pressure though.

        Everybody have a Merry Christmas and Holiday and take time to reflect on things that really matter in life.

  41. Terry Battcher says:

    I seem to recall a Walter Cronkite report where he stated that the hijacker “wrote” Dan Cooper as his name on the ticket. I also recall other reports claiming that the only sample they had of Cooper’s handwriting was on that ticket. I’m not just talking about “tix” here, I’m pointing these facts out about the hand printing details: “DAn COopEr,” however this description isn’t completely sufficient. The letter N was drawn small (half size), but as an upper case letter N, using 4 strokes. Large capital letter’s C and O, followed by a ‘diminished in size’ letter o, and note the different degrees at which the strokes of these two letter O’s start at. The small letter p is broken into two distinctive parts, with the open loop of that letter starting at about 1:30 vs a 10:00 o’clock position. The letter E is rather large, with the center crossbar crowding the top of what appears to be a one stroke stem, top and bottom assembly. The letter r is a lower case drawing and is distinctively “cursive,” and not “block” printing. Go back and review the ‘swooping’ assembly of the letter D. Now review all of the taunting letters that followed the skyjacking, and you can plainly see that he most definitely manipulated the letter casing, size and styles, with very definitely added on structures. This is especially true of the Reno Nevada/Hospitality envelope and cutouts letter, in which he actually placed great emphasis on the same letters, as those on the ticket. Examine the “system” cutouts document, it has distinctively “dB COOper.” Emphasis was placed on the letter B and the three letters “COO.”

  42. Terry Battcher says:

    Oh, and don’t missed the “inverted” umlaut symbol, apparently intentionally placed under the half sized letter D on the “system that beats the system” cutouts document.

  43. shutter45 says:

    Tom K doesn’t believe the bills were black in 1971. I asked him if they ould of used the SN before Cooper got the money.

    They had indelible dies for that type of thing. Very popular in high school fire alarms to mark kids setting off the alarm.

    TK

    • FLYJACK says:

      A quote from Kaye’s site..

      “a law enforcement officer mentioned that silver nitrate that was used in the early 70’s to detect fingerprints. This treatment had the negative side effect of eventually turning the evidence black. Commercially available nitrate test strips were employed and the results were clearly positive. Further examination of the news photos from 1971 did not show any black bills. Although there was no record of any testing done on the bills prior to this analysis, the data indicates the blackened bills were checked for fingerprints using silver nitrate at some point in the 70’s.”

      I assume the two years are typos.. money news photos were in 1980 not 1971, and FBI would have used SN for fingerprints in the 80’s, not 70’s.

      Typos aside,, Tom may be correct, it is one possibility. However, he appears to justify it by claiming no photos of black bills. It appears that Brian and Fazio have claimed to see the black bills before the FBI got them in 1980, if so then the silver nitrate must have been applied in 1971. It was used to mark money.

  44. shutter45 says:

    where did you read about this. Tom doesn’t believe they were black until they checked for prints. this was what he told me hours ago.

    • FLYJACK says:

      read what exactly?

      I know what Tom believes,, he may be correct but both Brian and Fazio have stated they saw blackened bills before the FBI would have used the SN,, Their statements need to be checked.. if they did see black bills before the FBI could have used SN, it may have been applied in 1971.

      • shutter45 says:

        where did you read that the Fazio’s & Brian made the “blackened bills”

      • FLYJACK says:

        The quotes are above in my response to Bruce. That is why they need to be checked.

        “Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others had darkened in color. “They still had rubber bands on them,” Ingram says. “I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn’t really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn’t been touched.”

        Fazio..
        “Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition.”

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        Nonsense. Total crap.

  45. shutter45 says:

    It turns black in minutes.

  46. shutter45 says:

    sorry, working on my overhead projector…where did you read these guys made this claim about the bills?

  47. brucesmith49 says:

    I kinda remember Al Fazio saying something to me about some bills he saw were discolored and black. I’ll have to check my notes. At the time, I kinda rolled by eyeballs a bit because he said a few things that no one else was saying, such as NO SHARDS in the SAND, and that pieces were on the tideline even though he was a half-day late to the beach party…

  48. shutter45 says:

    What bills did they see, did the family show the money to them prior to taking it home?

  49. shutter45 says:

    I think we have enough myths in this case.

    • FLYJACK says:

      This is really simple, Brian and Fazio claimed seeing darkened bills, Bruce suggested checking with Brian to clarify. I suggested also asking about the rubber band frags.

      Something wrong with that?

      • shutter45 says:

        Cooper failed to see any black bills….darken in color is with age and being wet.

      • FLYJACK says:

        You don’t know any of that to be true. Might be, might not be.

      • PARDON ME BUT says:

        It is simple. You just dont see or accept it. Thats where it gets really really really complicated. ‘This is really simple, Brian and Fazio claimed seeing darkened bills,’ and the answer is: “They didn’t! They did not see what you are claiming they saw”. But, you can claim I’m anybody you want me to be. I don’t care – ha ha ha.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Correct, I don’t accept assumptions as fact. Seems to be a common error in the Cooper world..

  50. shutter45 says:

    More true than not….

    • FLYJACK says:

      Truth is binary, you may mean more likely than not..

      Have you read about SN fingerprinting, it is not used for wet surfaces and only for very recent prints… The more I read about it the less likely I believe it was used for fingerprinting the TBAR money. Even Snowmman back on DZ doubted it.

      It would not turn the bills black in minutes, the prints show within 5-30 minutes but the entire surface gradually turns black at a rate depending on UV exposure.

      The Ingrams used Clorox on the bills, it contains sodium chloride which reacts with SN and make SN fingerprinting useless.

      If Brian did see darkened bills as he claimed and it was before the FBI got them then the SN was likely applied in 1971, the only reason at that time would be to mark the bills. that is info the FBI would holdback.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        The small holes in the bills indicate that bacteria ate through the bills, the same goes for the darkened areas. Humus, or black soil is made by bacteria, as in composting, which explains the darkened areas. I’ve been waiting for Tom Kaye’s report about where the bills might have originated from? Upstream? Under soil? Soil under water? Skip the speculations, please.

        BTW, why if Blevins was banned, am I now seeing postings under his name, in this thread? Menacing? I’d say so. Potentially more disinformation from Blevins? Definitely!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Tom Kaye looked for news images of blackened bills taken in 1980 and found none. He used that as a premise to support his FBI SN use for fingerprinting. Tom tested the darkened bills and found SN. If Brian did see blackened bills prior to the FBI getting them it undermines Tom Kaye’s argument. Further, using SN for fingerprinting the TBAR bills makes no sense. It is still possible but it also possible that the bills were marked with SN in 1971. If so, it may explain why those 3 packets were discarded. It is worth pursuing whether it pans out or not.

  51. brucesmith49 says:

    Note to All:

    Soon, I will be traveling to New York for an extended stay to deal with family matters. That means I will not be posting here, nor monitoring the posts. Hence, y’all gotta be on your best behavior.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone!

  52. Robert Blevins says:

    Well, I thought about posting here while Bruce was gone, but decided against it. 🙂
    Have a great Christmas, Cooper fans.

  53. Robert Blevins says:

    However….in case any of you are trying to find me, we’ve mostly moved our Cooper Stuff over to Quora, the Q and A site.

  54. Terry Battcher says:

    If Blevins was banned, why am I currently seeing postings here under his name?

  55. brucesmith49 says:

    Establishing a total ban on Blevins is difficult but not impossible. Since he could post here under a plethora of names and email addresses, one has to go to the source of his Internet connection. I will do that if I have to, but I thought it was more work than I wanted to undertake until now. Still pondering.

    • Marla says:

      How can Christmas be Merry with Blevins back in the mix? Bruce, you are messing with us, correct?

      • TED says:

        Where’s the moderator when we need. This is gonna turn into a free for all with Bruce departed, Blevins here and FLY and PARD mixing it up.

  56. shutter45 says:

    If he has any dignity what so ever he will not attempt to post where is has been banned. I kept telling people he’s always afraid of others doing exactly what he does himself. if you don’t recall he would shutdown his forum while away so someone like him wouldn’t pull any dirty tricks!

  57. PARDON ME BUT says:

    MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL – WELL MOST! Ha Ha ha.

  58. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Definitely GEORGER. Syntax, style, meanness, anger, and common phraseology with an arrogant manner is a dead give away. Go back to Pocohantos, fella.

    Hilarious absurdity.

  59. PARDON ME BUT says:

    Tonight featured Cooper move: “Chato’s Land” (1972) In 1870s New Mexico, a half-breed kills a bigoted sheriff in self-defense but the posse that eventually hunts him finds itself in dangerous territory. Director: Michael Winner. Writer: Gerald Wilson. Stars: Charles Bronson, Jack Palance, James Whitmore | See full cast & crew » ch430 STZWS. See yawl there!

  60. EU says:

    The Cooper Vortex just released their latest podcast which I recorded in Portland the day before the conference. I talk about NORJAK about Sheridan Peterson in particular.

    https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-alive-eric-ulis/

  61. Terry Battcher says:

    This guy picks up where Blevins left off: PARDON ME BUT says:
    December 15, 2018 at 8:39 pm

    Tonight featured Cooper move: “Chato’s Land” (1972) In 1870s New Mexico, a half-breed kills a bigoted sheriff in self-defense but the posse that eventually hunts him finds itself in dangerous territory. Director: Michael Winner. Writer: Gerald Wilson. Stars: Charles Bronson, Jack Palance, James Whitmore | See full cast & crew » ch430 STZWS. See yawl there!

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Terry, thats just Scrooge being Scrooge at Christmas. Pardon Me But (Georger) is a denier, but we know the truth. Merry Christmas to all.

  62. FLYJACK says:

    FBI vault – Cooper file #33 just posted…

    • FLYJACK says:

      2 years after NORJAK and 1.5 years after Hahneman was in custody for the EAL hijacking the FBI was still showing his photos to NORJAK witnesses.. He hadn’t been eliminated as a Cooper suspect. In fact, so far, I have never seen any evidence that he was ever eliminated.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        It’s not surprising to me that the FBI operates that way. Most people don’t realize that the FBI is a political arm of the US government, but who do they all answer to? Hoover became a powerful bureaucratic entity once he got the big appropriations following his take down of John Dillinger. A lot of politicians feared Hoover, because he had files on EVERYBODY that was anybody. I couldn’t find a good picture of Hahnenman on the net. I think that it’s really important that the Cooper community researchers study the airline ticket and the documents that followed the skyjacking. You can see a correlation of how the DAn COopEr signature compares to how, for one example; the Hospitality envelope and letter were constructed. Count the number of pen strokes that were used in making each letter of “DAn COopEr.” I assert that it was probably a common practice in those days for the passenger to fill out his or her own name on the ticket . Think about the probable confusion that could occur if the ticket agent is asking for a passenger’s name and the spelling of their name. No, I think the common practice was for the passenger to write in his or her name and hand it to the ticket agent. Think about concerns for a passenger’s privacy as well. Furthermore, it seems to me that the news media stated that the only sample that the FBI had of the hijacker handwriting, was on the airline ticket, and they went on to point out that COopEr didn’t leave the ransom note behind. It’s also typical of the lockstep media outlets to continue with the “DB Cooper” description of the case, when that was a completely wrongful description. There never was a “DB” Cooper, however, the taunting documents contained a “BD” Cooper description/name. In the course of my research, the “BD” Cooper hint is very important indeed, because one of the first cases we linked to the Zodiac killer cases was the 1947 Black Dahlia case. Former LA detective Steve Hodel makes this same linkage, however the evidence clearly shows that his dad was not the person that murdered cabbie Paul Stine. Paul Stine was the last “official” Zodiac killer victim. “The Zodiac killer” description was media hype that began right before the murder of Paul Stine. Bear in mind that there never was a “Zodiac killer,” only the ‘shock and awe’ media hype. None of the crimes that we link were what they seem. One of John Mark Karr’s soundbite statements was: “Things are not what they seem.” NORJACK was not what it seems…think about everything that there is in the NORJACK case for you to work with! How are ALL of the basic elements currently adding up?

  63. shutter45 says:

    December 6, 1973 they had 694 suspects and 596 were eliminated..98 suspects could Cooper since were unable to determine if they too have been eliminated! who are the 596 and who are the 98 remaining?

    last time I checked. they don’t publicly eliminate very many suspects nor do we have all the information (files) the FBI has..

  64. shutter45 says:

    Error in numbers…694 suspects and 586 eliminated leaving 108..

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Yep, and about 1000 more since 73.

    • Daniel meyers says:

      Do you think it’s possible that the FBI could have cleared the real Cooper. I don’t have a suspect in mind when I say that, but suggesting that the may not fully understand everything that Cooper did or have some facts wrong.

      • Marla says:

        The FBI doesn’t have a clue, Daniel. Nothing has changed since 11/24/71. He appeared and disappeared like an apparition, never to be seen again.

  65. Terry Battcher says:

    There never was a “DB” COopEr. Just a Dan Cooper comic book hero.

  66. Terry Battcher says:

    I know, yeah the DB Cooper cat burglar, but that didn’t stop the media from collectively continuing with the wrongful DB Cooper ‘cash cow’ hype.

  67. Daniel meyers says:

    Merry Christmas to every one. I do have a question for Terry. You have always talked about the Cooper, Zodiac, Ramsey, and other cases being linked. My question I have been researching the Zodiac Killer case and it makes me feel that the letters sent by the Zodiac may have been written with the writer possibly standing. I am suggesting that because of the slant in his writing, it would be more difficult to figure out who wrote it. Their regular writing isn’t probably like that, woulld it make harder to link the cases together and be able to tell they were committed by the same person.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      While the handwriting comparisons to Jack Tarrance aren’t my forte’, I felt that even the simple ones done by Dennis Kaufman are very strong. Nanette fortified Dennis’ findings. YouTube NanetteB777. My involvement with the Ramsey case came right after I did a crash course in the Zodiac cases. I set out to disprove the statement “Jack’s signature is all over the Ramsey ransom note,” and this statement was made by an antagonist that I felt was doing more harm to Kaufman than good. Well, the letters JT practically dominate the entire so-called Ramsey ransom note, in both primary and secondary forms. The primary forms offer this basic message: “(It) exhausting…daughter watching…Speaking daughter being…money killing family think killing Victory.” That is only one form of encryption that I found on the RN, there are several more that I’ve identified and probably several more yet to be decoded. As far as the Zodiac writings done while standing up? Maybe? I do know that one or more of them was suspected to have been drawn with his non-dominant (left) hand.

      I also see evidence that the FBI brass ran the NORJACK case off the rails, the same goes for Ramsey, but limited evidence of the same thing with the Zodiac case. However, the evidence that Meyer Lanski and other mob associates had dirt on J Edgar “Mary” Hoover goes back several decades. Too may eggs in the Hoover basket, directors need changing like elected officials need changing, like dirty underwear needs changing. The same goes for those in any position of power that can manipulate things like the FISA court etc, hint-hint!

      • Terry Battcher says:

        Oh, I forgot to add that I mainly rely other items on the case documents, like figurines that repeat, the repeated treatment of keywords, intentionally misspelled words, rabbit hints, ‘jack rabbit’ nouns, the manipulation of double and triple meanings, his use and misuse of the period mark. Double postage, postage messages that reinforce, postmark dates and locations, time-date stamps on his documents, decimal GPS locations. Actually I see that he used as many of these kind of items as he possible could fit in. For instance, the so-called ransom note, in the Ramsey case, has figurines or structural hints in practically every single word he wrote and implied. Former Boulder DA, Alex Hunter, described the RN as “very fanciful.” When he made his televised speech the “…the list of suspects narrows, and soon only YOU will be on that list.” I only recently came to realize that the RN starts out with the light encryption “List>Mr Ramsey.” Did Hunter realize this artifact? I tend to think that he did. Well, the ‘little list/Mikato’ business is well established in Zodiac killer documents. The Mikato “I have a little list” lyrics or poem rings like Dr Seuss book. And, you have a Dr Seuss book left in the suitcase, along with a Duvet’ and Sham, at the Ramsey crime scene! I’m talking about a lot of evidence that he left a journal for us to track and “fOlLoW.” That last word is a very key hint to Jack Tarrance’s mother’s middle name, Flova, which is on the RN and hinted 6ea times on the 340 (Zodiac killer) cypher, and the Hospitality envelope in the Cooper case! And, I’m still finding things like this after 7 plus years of tenacity!

  68. Daniel meyers says:

    The zodiac letters handwritten slant heavily to to the right, which makes me that the writing hand wasn’t stationary. It seemed to move more freely. I believe it was done to make it harder to catch the writer of the letters. I can see some of linkages in the cases, whether or not they all go back to one person is something I don’t know. I truly don’t believe the Cooper case will be solved barring a death bed confession with evidence of the hijacking. I do think that the Ziidiac case will be solved. There is some possible DNA and with the ancestry DNA data bases they might be able to find a match. The Ramsey one I am not sure.

  69. Daniel meyers says:

    Also Terry, I just heard about something interesting with the Zodiac Killer case. In 1970 in Sacremento Nancy Bennallack was murdered, it wasn’t considered a Zodiac case because the killer broke into her apartment and killed her. The mmurder was a year and 2 weeks after the Paul Stine murder, and 2 days later the Halloween card was sent. What has my interest the police were able to get a DNA profile and are checking data bases. I hope that it is a Zodiac case, and the case is solved and with luck a criminal arrested and justice for the victim’s.

  70. Terry Battcher says:

    The Zodiac killer hype was part of an elaborate coverup for the true motive in the murder of Darlene Ferrin. She was stalked, the killer knew her name, she had witnessed a hit. The prior murder of Betty Lou Jensen was a case of the killer mistaking Jensen for Ferrin. The attack on Hartnell and Shepard was the beginning of the phony Zodiac hype. Both victims bled out, but Shepard received three times the number of stab wounds. If Hartnell had died, there would have been no report of the ominous executioners hood. Neither victim died immediately, showing precision work on the part of the killer. All drawn picture documents had only one “noun,” in common and that “noun” was the word “jack.” SFPD stated that they had a palm print, then the Zodiac hype basically went underground. Jack Tarrance dipped both of his hands in acid up to his wrists after the report of the palm print went out. NanetteB777 on YouTube is where to start. The Cooper skyjacking was predicted in the Halloween card, with the image of a passenger jet, but this was not the only hint. Ramsey case is linked by multiple items. OCCK is also linked. All shock and awe acts of organized crime, all involved cover-ups involving the lock-step MSM, even though they didn’t have monopolized control of the media in the days of the Cooper caper, like they do these days.

  71. Daniel meyers says:

    Found it thanks.

  72. Daniel meyers says:

    There is a new suspect in the Zodiac case, they are calling Waterson but that’s not his real name. He is still alive. He did work at the Traverse Air Force Base. I don’t know much about him but his face resembles the sketch and he did have a hat on that looked like a pilot. The plane could definitely have been a clue to his identity.

  73. PARDON ME BUT says:

    JOHNNIE GREENE! JOHNNIE GREENE! JOHNNIE GREENE! What a waste of natural resources.

    • Marla says:

      Come on. A Green life precludes wasteful use of obnoxious gases. Get a Green life, Pocohontas.🤣

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        Who’s s bafoon? I said nothing…..

      • Gypsy23 says:

        Georger is correct. Unsolveable mystery with baffoons and baboons running the asylum now. Johnnie Greene needs to go camping with Blevins for a week and see who comes out of the woods. My prediction: Big Foot.

  74. Daniel meyers says:

    FLYJACK- Hanneman is a good suspect, I am not positive that he was Cooper. What would be great if there was any DNA that could link a person to the hijacking. I had heard that the FBI had some Cooper hair, I know hair isn’t what the FBI would prefer to test, but if it could produce some DNA you could check data based, even ancestry ones and maybe get a hit.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Hahneman is the best suspect by a long shot. Nobody has all the info that I have so I wouldn’t expect others to reach the same conclusion. I still have some docs on the way, perhaps I can reveal more in the near future..

      Shutter, you left out EU..

    • TED says:

      Hanneman is a bullshit story with no proof at all. By investigators who couldn’t detect a pimple on a bald ass. Blevins could do better.

  75. shutter45 says:

    I don’t think it’s a bullshit story. it’s a theory like all the others…I don’t see much difference than the others..

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      Your right. They’re ALL bullshit.

    • FLYJACK says:

      They all can’t be Cooper.. therefore they aren’t all equal.. one is better than the rest and that is Hahneman, by far. They aren’t the same, not even close. If you think they are, you are uninformed.

  76. shutter45 says:

    It’s like a spell takes over there bodies. I see it it in just about every person who has a suspect. they are right and we are wrong. how can all of them be right?

    We don’t want the truth is another popular statement.

    2019 rapidly approaching, and no movie yet?

    Got milk 🙂

    • FLYJACK says:

      So, a suspect is invalidated because somebody pursues them as a suspect…

      some crazy ass logic there…

      Suspects should be evaluated on their own “merits”.. shouldn’t they?

  77. shutter45 says:

    None of them are Cooper…

  78. shutter45 says:

    a lot of people that look into this case simply don’t believe all these suspects for one reason or another. you can’t make someone believe without proof! “he looks like the sketch, he was in the military, he was a paratrooper. he worked in this field or that field etc. etc. it’s a broken record with you guys. then the hatred pops out. it’s up to you guys to show the proof. it’s not the other way around.

  79. shutter45 says:

    We don’t even have 100% proof he made it. that make the odds worse for a suspect.

  80. shutter45 says:

    I spoke with one of the guys from the Reca klan. no matter what I told this guy he didn’t want to believe anything. he firmly believes the flight flew east out of SeaTac. even after I told him so many would have to be wrong. SeaTac is wrong, the Air Force is wrong, all the guys watching the plane on radar are wrong? he told me pilots stated they fly out due east out of Seattle to Portland? he has all kinds of proof too that he’s not showing? he was a nice guy but extremely off the chart with the case.

  81. shutter45 says:

    Not my job, sorry… 🙂

  82. shutter45 says:

    That’s another “suspect tactic”

    I didn’t fill out the application for this suspect…YOU DID..it’s up to you to show the proof. I will gladly look over the evidence as I do all the others. you brought it to the table, so you need to show the cards. I don’t have them and neither does anyone else. the cards are in your hand. you either show them or you shouldn’t be claiming what you have been claiming. that’s simple logic right there.

    I take it you have ALL the files the FBI has to make these claims? I doubt it. you have witnesses backing up this claim?

    • FLYJACK says:

      It isn’t a tactic, I started looking at Hahneman to answer that very question.. Why isn’t it Hahneman?

      I found more evidence to implicate him and none to exclude and none that the FBI ever eliminated him..

      You are the one that has it backasswards. You don’t have to accept a suspect as Cooper but you never reject without evidence.

      You have 100% rejected Hahneman without any evidence but instead from ignorance. Complete lack of logic and critical thinking. Based on that your opinion is meaningless. I have no interest in showing evidence to people whose opinions/thinking I don’t respect.

      • MNastt says:

        Shutter is right. Everyone with a pet suspect either retires early or gets carted off in a Posey belt. Look what happened to Skipp Porteous. Some may say Blevins drove Skipp nutz, but who drove Blevins over the edge? You Cooper theorists are all destined for the basement in the looney bin. All of you.

      • shutter45 says:

        I really don’t care, nor do I need critical thinking on suspects. they always end up floating around the Cooper vortex for years on end. IMO, it’s a waste of time. you don’t think so and that’s fine as well. I look at the evidence. I don’t like constantly going down rabbit holes with suspects.

        I have seen some evidence, including witnesses rejecting. this was a guy who wasn’t brought to the FBI. he was on there radar and I’m sure they checked into him. they put suspects through a lot from people just calling and saying a guy looks like the sketch.

        The first thing that should be done is find out if the FBI knew where he was. you guys work up a whole theory without any proof of where a suspect was that day. it’s usually done backwards with Cooper. you have to find out where he was to proceed to anything past that! no, it’s not easy, but it appears to be a lot easier building it up to look like he’s Cooper.

        I’m entitled to an opinion. my opinion is not good with suspects due to them always ending up with nothing. over a thousands suspects and it appears the FBI shares my opinion. it got very old with them. lots of rabbit holes. the Cooper story needs people like you but you can’t bash every person who disagree’s with your theory!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Can’t comment on other suspects, but Shutter is wrong on Hahneman.

        The FBI looked at Hahneman as a serious suspect for at least two years after NORJAK.. they have never admitted that he was ever eliminated yet Shutter knows he wasn’t Cooper without any evidence.

        Hahneman died well before the tie DNA.. putting him on the plane would be very difficult for them.

        So, I ask Shutter to explain the evidence backing up his conclusion to 100% eliminate Hahneman and he has nothing. Not having evidence to eliminate isn’t evidence to accept, it just exposes his poor logic.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Shutter,

      Your opinion is all yours, even if it is irrational.

      Not all suspects are equal. Lumping and attacking them together is “association fallacy”.
      You don’t have all the evidence. You don’t know what you don’t know.
      I am not trying to convince you or anyone that Hahneman is Cooper, you have rejected him based on ZERO evidence. That is what I am criticizing and disappointed in. If I only knew what you know about Hahneman I would not accept him as Cooper either but I wouldn’t reject him.

      It is a legitimate question to ask and seek.. “Why was Hahneman not Cooper?” even Snowmman asked Larry Carr that question, he never answered.

      My evaluation of the evidence I have is that he is by far the best suspect and I haven’t found anything to eliminate or that the FBI ever did eliminate him.

      I am not bashing your opinion for what you think it is how you think that I don’t respect. It is not conducive to any investigation. It is closed to anything new or unknown. You don’t know that Hahneman was not Cooper, yet claim it.

      To solve this case somebody will have to propose a suspect for evaluation, if you maintain your current logic every suspect will be rejected before they are legitimately eliminated by evidence. That is how the FBI works, they pursue until they can factually eliminate. The bias should be toward an open mind, not closed.

      You are closed. A closed mind will never solve this.

      Happy New Year.

  83. shutter45 says:

    I can only imagine how many people know exactly where Jimmy Hoffa is. so many got it right with him as well. I’ll bet the same insults go back and forth with that case. put the mafia in with it and you probably have people putting hits out on you 🙂

  84. shutter45 says:

    I think Skipp milked it for what it was worth and washed his hands of the whole thing. he moved on with his life and Bobby ran with the wind. the problem is. all the wind is long gone 🙂

    Roberts been busy in the background trying to tell everyone what was wrong with the conference as if his opinion means anything. he’s busy busy busy with the up and coming movie 🙂 2019 is here? slowest production company in all of Hollywood.

    • Johnnie Greene says:

      There’s another example of bullshit……..Robert Blevins movie deal….. put Blevins and FLYJACK in the same suite and let them have it out. Bullshit vs. Bullshit equals……?

  85. shutter45 says:

    Lets not play the DNA game. you guys all want it. then when it’s negative all the sudden “it’s probably not his DNA”

    have they “eliminated” all the suspects on paper? can you show where they dismissed suspect 456, or even Peterson?

    To be honest. I don’t think they actually “eliminate” anyone unless they have proof of where they were that day. it wouldn’t be in there best interest to dismiss without evidence. other evidence could do it as well. that’s the hard part. we don’t have everything the FBI does.

    again, I don’t see anything that makes him anymore of suspect than the others. that’s your job. do you want everyone to jump on the bus? I don’t follow this at all. this is a public forum so others are reading. you seem to be holding back because of me? I’m having trouble understanding your logic. why are you here then if you don’t want to show evidence? where ever you go people are going to question a theory.

    • FLYJACK says:

      You miss the point..

      You claimed Hahneman was not Cooper but have no evidence. Not having evidence to eliminate doesn’t make him Cooper.

      You don’t see anything that makes him more of a suspect….. because you don’t have all the information and have already rejected him.

      The only person I wanted to convince was myself. I don’t really care what others think. You seem to think I have some obligation or need to prove something to everybody. I don’t. Others with suspects may but not me.

      You haven’t questioned it, you have rejected it.

      A forum or blog is a poor format to lay out all the evidence, it is very complex. Here is one point.. I have hundreds..

      Hahneman flew into Seattle on a NorthWest flight years before NORJAK. That did not come from the FBI.

  86. shutter45 says:

    Fly, you are really sounding like Blevins now…you can’t say zero evidence when I told you why. his picture was shown to witnesses. he’s a violent person. he pulled a gun out at the beginning contrary to what you claimed. the MO was not the same. sure he didn’t want to make it look the same but it’s far from what Cooper did. similarities, sure. I can find similarities in lots of things.

    Didn’t his description say he’s missing some back teeth?

    You have to show different. that’s how it’s done. you don’t want to do that so it becomes an issue. the burden of proof is in your hands not mine. I keep telling you this. you are giving me serious flashbacks here…

    • FLYJACK says:

      He pulled a gun in another hijacking so he isn’t Cooper. really? FBI didn’t think so.
      The MO was nearly identical except the gun, I haven’t disclosed all the details, you have no idea. Security was changed after NORJAK and he feared sky marshals. The gun does not eliminate. The FBI showed pics to witnesses for at least two years, some thought he resembled Cooper. Hahneman’s weight did fluctuate dramatically..

      The early suspect description claimed he was missing some upper side teeth, perhaps he wore partials, hard to determine now. That may explain the Cooper tie particles. They were all used in dental prosthetic work. He was also an electrical engineer.

      The burden of proof is not mine because I am not trying to convince you. That isn’t my goal. I just think you are not rational to reject without evidence to do so.

      Hahneman can’t be compared to any other suspect, he is actually swarthy, curly/marcelled dark hair, no accent, turkey neck, matches the description, age 49, weight 165-175, no marks/scars, was dressed thin black tie, white shirt, dark suit and overcoat, brown shoes, dark sunglasses, actually hijacked for ransom a 727 and jumped out the back stairs, threatened to blow up the plane with a briefcase bomb, gave the pilot a hand written note and demanded its return, had pills for the crew, had extensive airplane knowledge, gave flying instructions, closed curtain, closed shades, left open parachute behind, smoker, military, electrical engineer, never home, loner, intelligent, had a grudge, was seen with a green bag, etc….

      Do you actually think asking “Why not Hahneman?” is not a legitimate question..

      You don’t have to accept Hahneman as Cooper but rejecting him without evidence is looney and comparing him to other suspects is crazy.

  87. shutter45 says:

    You don’t care what others think…again, why are you here? the purpose of these forums are to discuss topics, agree or disagree with statements and evidence. if you don’t care what others think then why would you make a post in the first place?

    • FLYJACK says:

      I don’t care what you think but I am not going to allow you to discredit me. Just like you did on your forum you always pull out the Blevins card… to insult and straw-man. You have some sort of Blevins Associative Disorder. You can’t back up with evidence the reason you reject Hahneman so you throw it out as a defence.. childish crap.

      You are incapable of any rational discussion…

  88. shutter45 says:

    Better yet, if you don’t care what I think. then why have you been replying?

  89. shutter45 says:

    Hahneman flew into Seattle on a NorthWest flight years before NORJAK. That did not come from the FBI.

    months before would be something..years prior, why? did he have family, business etc. you claiming it was a recon or a dry run of some sort?

  90. shutter45 says:

    Kenny worked for NWO!!!!!!!!
    Peterson lived in Seattle and worked for Boeing, and was a skydiver. it all fits!!!!!!!!!

    • FLYJACK says:

      You are an ignorant asshole.. that is only one point of hundreds.

      Did KC or SP hijack and jump out the rear stairs of a 727? Hahneman actually did.

  91. Daniel meyers says:

    Shutter, while I am not convinced that Hanneman is Cooper, I do feel that any one who says who they think is Cooper basically gets ridiculed for it. You may not see it that but I understand how Fly Jack feels.

  92. shutter45 says:

    I can’t help it if my opinion hurts anyone. that’s there problem. re you telling me I can’t disagree with someone being Cooper?

    • shutter45 says:

      “It has been solved” is a pretty arrogant statement coming from anyone.

      • Daniel meyers says:

        What I am saying is are people getting ridiculed for having a theory on the case going to help the case get solved ? IMO To me it seems like it is going to discourage someone from coming forward with info or presenting a theory. The FBI may not know all the facts in the case, and not everything will make perfect sense. People’s stories do need to get scrutinized but often seems to attack the person presenting it.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Your opinion is worthless shit. It is ignorant and irrational.

      I said moths ago on your forum that based on the info I have I believe Hahneman was Cooper short of forensics and I don’t expect anyone else to accept it.

      I would expect people to not accept Hahneman as Cooper but to completely reject with no evidence is braindead.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Daniel meyers,

      People want the case solved, some people just don’t want somebody else to solve it. Destroying others lifts their relevance and ego..

      Suspects live and die based on their own merit, not by who is presenting the evidence. Attacking the messenger is an emotional defence mechanism that subverts knowledge advancement. NORJAK seems to attract fragile egos in need of affirmation.

      When you are ridiculed/smeared for posting facts, that is a toxic environment best avoided.

  93. shutter45 says:

    He can connect all the dots and it still doesn’t make him Cooper. they have had 40 plus years and nothing…only one witness stated the marcelled hair. he has a scar on the back of his hand, no? more than a few “resembled” Cooper. this was very early into the case while fresh on the minds of the witnesses.

    Yes, the burden of proof lies within the person testifying to any given subject. you have stated the case has been solved. damn right the burden is on you.

    • FLYJACK says:

      More ignorance from Shutter..

      The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.

      • shutter45 says:

        “More ignorance from Shutter..

        The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.”

        Congratulations Flyjack, you are officially second best to one Robert Blevins.

        I’ve read where the FBI claims no scars and also read other reports of a scar. you call me ignorant but failed to notice I said “didn’t he have a scar on the back of his hand, no” that’s a question. the you blast me for it and end by saying “if he did they didn’t notice” ?

        You have attacked me personally while I have done nothing of the sort. this is typical with suspect pushers. the hatred levels constantly go up on the scale. love the Blevins type header for your post. you have learned a lot from him. I have nothing further to say to you.

  94. shutter45 says:

    “some thought he resembled Cooper.”

    I firmly believe, especially back in the early 70’s that if Flo, or Tina & Alice ever seen a photo of Cooper they would jump right up and say “that’s him” I think they could ID him today. the passengers not so much. Flo was in fear for years checking under her car for a bomb.

    This is not a typical crime where a witness only see’s the perp for a few seconds or minutes. they had hours. it sank into there minds.

    Cooper dressed very common for the period. suit and tie and overcoat, odd, strange. nope. very common. look at the files. case after case of “he looks like the sketch” every suspect looks like the sketch in one way or the other. Gossett was dead on, along with I think suspect #1. it doesn’t make them Cooper.

    I don’t know why everyone seems focused on passengers descriptions. how could Tina miss a rust color suit. how do you part marcelled hair? Hahneman looks like Duane Weber if you ask me, especially from the side? he has odd eyebrow’s..half..

    I take it files are somewhere of interviews with Hahneman in prison. did they ever talk with him?

    • TED says:

      DB Cooper’s identity is unknown. People think they can pigeon-hole a particular subject to the air pirate because of a physical trait or skill. So far, no one has presented the proof needed to close the case out. The end.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Hahneman didn’t talk, his pic was still shown to witnesses at least 2 years after NORJAK and 1.5 years after he was caught. That means the FBI could not eliminate him in at least 1.5 years of investigating him.

      I haven’t seen any evidence that he was ever eliminated.

  95. shutter45 says:

    Just in case it gets missed from above…

    “More ignorance from Shutter..

    The Hahneman witnesses claimed NO MARKS/SCARS per FBI. I posted this on your shit forum and you didn’t read it. If Hahneman had a scar on his hand they didn’t notice.”

    Congratulations Flyjack, you are officially second best to one Robert Blevins.

    I’ve read where the FBI claims no scars and also read other reports of a scar. you call me ignorant but failed to notice I said “didn’t he have a scar on the back of his hand, no” that’s a question. the you blast me for it and end by saying “if he did they didn’t notice” ?

    You have attacked me personally while I have done nothing of the sort. this is typical with suspect pushers. the hatred levels constantly go up on the scale. love the Blevins type header for your post. you have learned a lot from him. I have nothing further to say to you.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Yikes,, the FBI mentioned the scar on the hand after he was ID’d and they were looking for him, they added that later. The hijacking witnesses never mentioned a scar,, get it. Is this too complex for you.

      Hahneman witnesses never noticed the scar and neither did NORJAK witnesses for Cooper. So, per FBI, if Hahneman had a scar, it wasn’t noticeable and is irrelevant. Stop me if this is too difficult.

      Meh, same old shit from you, taking innuendo lessons from Georger. Blevins obsessed.. try therapy.

      I hope you just ignore my posts… or go back to your toxic forum where critical thinking goes to be ridiculed to death.

  96. shutter45 says:

    Yikes,, the FBI mentioned the scar on the hand after he was ID’d and they were looking for him, they added that later. The hijacking witnesses never mentioned a scar,, get it. Is this too complex for you.

    lol, first you call me an uninformed fool and then admit you were wrong and twist to to fit…(applause) love how you admit guilt and continue to insult! people are saying you are full of shit here, so why are you in this toxic atmosphere?

    If he had a visible scar odds are Tina would of noticed it. the passengers on Hahneman’s were terrified with the way he handled the hijacking and pointing a gun. did any of the witnesses sit next to him for hours? passengers wouldn’t notice a scar from a distance.

    Tina didn’t have a gun pointed at here or a violent atmosphere like Hahneman shows in his hijacking. she sat next to him and had conversations with him, shared a smoke etc. you are giving false conclusions to make things fit. notice how I say it’s highly possible she would of noticed the scar vs saying as fact she would of noticed it?

    It appears you are trying to discredit me vs conducting a mature conversation. Blevins 101 all over again…

    • FLYJACK says:

      I thought and hoped you wouldn’t respond anymore… I’ll try to keep it brief.

      Hahneman hijacking witnesses didn’t notice a scar but NORJAK witness would have, therefore Hahneman isn’t Cooper. (Is that about right)

      You stick to that bad logic… funny the FBI didn’t think of that.

      • shutter45 says:

        You take things out of context much like Blevins. I’m giving an example. we have two different hijackings and two different environments. one is hostile while the other is not so much. we have established a scar is on his hand. we know for a fact that Tina was inches away from him for hours and concluded no visible scars or tattoo’s. while the others on a different hijacking reports no scars while he did in fact have one.

        as I mentioned above that you seemed to have glossed over is the fact of me not stating things as fact. you are claiming I have! Blevins reads into things like this too!

      • FLYJACK says:

        Too funny,,, you are the King of lacking of context…

        Your point is what regarding the scar?

        BTW, There was a rumour posted by Bruce that the FBI held back that Cooper had a scar on the back of his left hand, I tried to verify but it kept tracking back to Jo Weber, so not credible.

        If anyone has any real info on it let me know…

  97. shutter45 says:

    Stating the case is solved is claiming FACT beyond a reasonable doubt. I’ve yet to see anything that can make the claim a FACT!

    Reasonable doubt is a term used in jurisdiction of common law countries. Evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt is the standard of evidence required to validate a criminal conviction in most adversarial legal systems.

    Have you contacted the FBI to prove you have solved the case?

    • FLYJACK says:

      IMO, it is solved. Solved is subjective. I never stated beyond a reasonable doubt (legal standard) or as FACT. You have taken it out of context as usual. Funny, you claim to be entitled to your own opinion but nobody else is entitled to theirs..

      I stated many times, my opinion is based on all the info I have short of forensics.. which I can’t control.

      I still haven’t finished, there are some things still on the way and being worked on. Maybe there will be a smoking gun or something to exclude.. we’ll see. I’ll say though that the Hahneman story is fantastic even if he wasn’t Cooper.

  98. shutter45 says:

    opinions are not fact. nobody believes the case is solved except you. the sun coming up tomorrow is a fact. saying Hahneman is possibly Cooper is the proper statement vs he was Cooper or the case has been solved. I will still disagree. nobody ID’d him which is damaging. the case could of been left open as a person of interest. doesn’t mean they investigated only believing that he was Cooper. lots of suspects have had just as much time and effort and nothing came of them or the conclusions. that’s how I view things. you go one way or the highway and start insulting those who disagree.

    My opinion is what it is. it’s extremely apparent you feel the need to constantly insult me for my opinion. throw everything ya got, it won’t change anything. Circumstantial evidence and coincidences are hard to believe is enough to solve a case. it’s been done before without coincidences though.

    Solving the case would require putting the subject in the area on that date. finding physical evidence to back things up such as notes, confessions, witnesses identifying him, things used during the crime. I realize that’s not easy either, but framing, or accusing someone is! the whole Christiansen family is tossing there own family member under the bus!

    I’m use to people presenting the evidence and going through it to validate anything said on any given subject. I don’t like to get involved with suspects. I don’t think I’m alone on this either. that doesn’t make someone decide they don’t wish to solve the case. a common pattern starts with people who have suspects. you have all the information so why do we need to look for it?

    • FLYJACK says:

      opinions are not fact.. no shit Sherlock..

      I never said it was fact.. it is my opinion.

      Wrong, I don’t call you an ass because of your opinion, it is because you are an ass.

      I stated facts here and back on your forum and you ridicule them, they are single facts.

      You constantly use innuendo and the Blevins smear, again an ass.

      You claimed Hahneman is not Cooper with no evidence and virtually no knowledge about him. Ass move.

      You contextually distort my statements to fit your bias, beyond a reasonable doubt is a legal standard not an opinion standard. Once more, an ass.

      You are a hypocrite, my opinion is not valid but yours is. Rhymes with grass.

      You constantly make incorrect assumptions and false accusations.. I really don’t expect you to accept Hahneman as Cooper. I don’t care what your opinion is.. I wouldn’t accept Hahneman as Cooper either if were you but I would have an open mind and be respectful.

      There is no burden on me to prove anything to anybody, you guys could have done your own homework years ago but didn’t… I don’t see any reason to share info with you or your disrespectful forum environment and clearly you don’t respect me and the info I have..

      You have created the ultimate self imposed catch 22.. you can’t critically evaluate a possible suspect when you have started by rejecting him based on assumptions.

  99. shutter45 says:

    “Maybe there will be a smoking gun”

    This is my point. how can you claim the case is solved and still be looking for a smoking gun..you shouldn’t need one or already have it to make this statement…

    • FLYJACK says:

      It is my opinion, that is why. The evidence I have now is strong enough to convince me. A smoking gun means beyond circumstantial.

      Contrary to Coopertown self appointed Judge Shutter opinions aren’t a legal standard.. though some are convicted on circumstantial evidence alone.

  100. shutter45 says:

    Man, you have gone full blown Blevins dude…

  101. shutter45 says:

    Such a hateful comment for someone’s view Flyjack. I’m not appointing judge to nothing. it’s my opinion whether you like it or not. it appears to be eating through you? this makes you look foolish.

    • FLYJACK says:

      Of course you are playing Judge, you are claiming an opinion must meet the legal burden of proof or it is invalid. This is complete BS on many levels.

  102. shutter45 says:

    “A smoking gun means beyond circumstantial.”

    Lets take a look, shall we?

    The term “smoking gun” is a reference to an object or fact that serves as conclusive evidence of a crime or similar act.

    Spare the act of minimizing the term. so, you are wrong! a smoking gun is exactly what I stated it was.

    It’s fine that you believe it’s solved but you shouldn’t post it unless it’s actually true!

    • FLYJACK says:

      So, what is your point? I can’t have an opinion because you need “a smoking gun”.. Sorry, I don’t need a “smoking gun” to have an opinion. You have an opinion without any evidence and very little knowledge.

      • shutter45 says:

        Fly, this is getting old…you clearly stated the case was solved, correct? you need conclusive proof for that statement, correct? then you stated you are still looking for the smoking gun, correct? then state the story is fantastic even if he isn’t Cooper, correct?

        That alone implies you have no validation to claim the case is solved…and yet we are still at it hours and possibly days later?

      • FLYJACK says:

        I stated months ago on your forum that IMO, it is solved short of forensics, why – because I have overwhelming circumstantial evidence that convinced me. It is my opinion, not a legal standard contrary to your assertion. I don’t need a smoking gun to have an opinion. It is enough evidence to have an opinion. That is enough for me.

        You can believe what you want but FYI you really know very little about Hahneman so your opinion means nothing to me.

  103. shutter45 says:

    Mr. Blevins. seek help….

  104. shutter45 says:

    100 comments because I don’t believe Hahneman is Cooper and the case isn’t solved. talk about a waste of time….

  105. shutter45 says:

    I never once said you are not allowed to have an opinion. not once! I commented on two things. one, the fact of you claiming the case was solved, and number two would be not believing Hahneman was Cooper. nowhere in my comments do I lay claim to you not having an opinion.

    To finalize. I don’t believe Hahneman is Cooper based on current evidence and my beliefs past that. I also strongly disagree that the case has been solved. especially when someone claims it’s a fantastic story even if he’s not Cooper!

    Everyone on this board, including you are judges if you wish to get technical! if someone agree’s with me then so be it. if they disagree that’s fine too.

    you can keep insulting me all nite. I have to leave now…

    • FLYJACK says:

      I wouldn’t believe Hahneman was Cooper either if I only had the info you have. You claimed he is NOT Cooper without any evidence and little knowledge.

      • shutter45 says:

        I’ve heard that so many times from o many different people. I’m done buddy…gotta run.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        You two need to knock it off. Blevins is the KING OF VENOM. Long live the DB COOPER MYSTERY. 2019 and beyond…..

      • FLYJACK says:

        shutter45..

        You have engaged in association fallacy aka poor logic, each suspect needs to be assessed based on their own merits. You rejected Hahneman before you had any knowledge and you still have very little. You attacked and ridiculed me for my opinion from a position of ignorance to back up your emotional position. That is childish BS.. That is why I called you an ass, not because you don’t agree with my opinion.

        The correct position for you to have is to not accept or reject. Get it. Rejection without evidence is irrational so is attacking the messenger.

  106. Darren says:

    Episode 7 of The Cooper Vortex is up. DB Cooper was an International Spy, with Vern Jones. Enjoy!

    https://pod.link/1439712498

    • Gypsy23 says:

      FLYJACK, listen up. You have not solved this case. You have presented a suspect of your own liking. That’s it! No more. No less. Your fervor will get you a reputation much like Blevins. There will be 20 new suspects in 2019, many with better presentations than yours. Get over it! The DB COOPER lineup is a mile long and an inch deep. Yours, maybe half an inch.

  107. Terry Battcher says:

    I’ll say it again…the string of taunting documents that followed the so-called DB Cooper skyjacking hold multiple pieces of evidence that the person that composed them had inside crime scene knowledge. There’s also evidence that the DAn COopEr signature on the airline ticket was done by that same person, which is only one of the reasons why I believe that the FBI retained the taunting documents. This stands as pretty good evidence that the UNSUB survived the jump[*]. Based on my experience of studying the suspect that Nanette and I name, “screwy” evidence was also a primary characteristic of this same suspect, and the Tina/Tena bar money find is very screwy evidence indeed. Also, for him to have controlled every aspect of the execution of the crime and yet leave behind the clip-on tie, which turns out to have far too much evidence on it, is more screwy evidence, because it would seem to be pretty sloppy in an otherwise well planned and executed crime., and like the Ramsey ransom note…it’s too much evidence. [*Assuming that the same person that purchased the ticket also used the ticket.] BTW, examine and compare the letters D and p on the ticket, the D has an overtly closed loop over the stem, yet the letter p has those two sections overtly disconnected! I read that letter p as another one of our suspect’s many many JT signature hints. JT hints are pervasive features of the Ramsey ransom note, that is, once you look for and recognize them. The primary JT hints on the RN convey the message: “(IT) exhausting…daughter watching…Speaking daughter being…money killing family think killing Victory!”

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Terry, I like many of your posts. But you need to understand something. Cooper did not sign his name to NWOA ticket. Ticketing agents ALWAYS did it themselves. And, Cooper would not leave that type of evidence behind. He was “too clean” to do something idiotic like that. I’m sure you can figure that out, Terry.

      • Terry Battcher says:

        Gypsy 23, no sir, you are flat out wrong, the UNSUB signed the ticket himself, then handed in to the clerk.

      • FLYJACK says:

        T Battch…

        I am at about 98% that Cooper did NOT write his name on the ticket but if you have/know of evidence that he did, that would be significant. It very closely matches Hahneman’s writing but I think Lynse wrote it.

  108. Daniel meyers says:

    Terry- I don’t know if you mentioned this before but on the Halloween Card sent by the Zodiac, on the skeleton is a pumpkin maybe it’s a clue to a name like Jack or John. I do know who your suspect is that’s why I mentioned it.

    • Terry Battcher says:

      Yeah…
      “jack” o lantern, that’s the noun hint that’s found on all of the Zodiac killer’s pictorial items…”jack.”

  109. Nicholas Broughton says:

    Klansnic is the best suspect to date not Hahneman,,,sorry to break to ya fly.

    • FLYJACK says:

      When did he hijack and jump out of the rear of a 727?

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        FLY:
        ALL suspects jumped at 8:13 PM on 11/24/71. Every damn one of them. It was hard to get them all out of the fucking door before they flew over Portland. Best damn display of jumpers. Quite a fight at Tina’s Bar over the booty, but I hear they all got a piece of the action. Your suspect is in there too. He was number 141 to open his chute.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        ps. If you question this fact, ask Georger. He knows this shit better than anyone.

      • Johnnie Greene says:

        ps. If you question this fact, ask Georger. He knows this shit better than anyone.

      • Nicholas Broughton says:

        He piloted a B-17 Bomber that was shot down over Steyr Austria during WW2, Him and his crew all safely parachuted out the bombay at 27,000 feet and evaded enemy capture from the germans for 2 days on the ground. Hijacking a plane he help build in his own backyard would of been childs play for old Jim with all due respect Fly. Try him in the fire! If he’s not cooper he will be consumed but if he is cooper he will come out not even smelling like smoke….checks more boxes then anybody else.

        1, Knowledge of 727 ✔️+
        2. Shot down fighter PILOT just like Dan Cooper (Comic) ✔️
        3. Stalag Luft 1 POW for 13 months/ battle hardened ✔️
        4. Photo wearing what looks to be the very tie in evidence ✔️
        5. Worked on the Breaking system and CRT displays for SST ✔️
        6. Olive skin similar to George Clooney ✔️
        7. Traveled extensively for Boeing and on personal time back and forth to Canada, Paris, Italy, South America, and Austria ✔️
        8.Closely resembles sketches ✔️
        9. Fluent in German and spent considerable time in france and italy being stationed in both before being captured in WW2. ✔️
        10. Distinctive fold of skin like a turkey gobbler and unusual slant in the hairline. ✔️
        11. Father worked at a quarry in the black diamond area 💥
        12. Had “my one and only parachute ride” and a reference a reference to the year 1980 (1945 + 35=1980) in which he “wonders if he could still find his wallet in the cabin he hid in after parachuting from his burning B-17 at 26k ft, in his obituary ✔️
        13. A Mountaineer ✔️

        I can go on and on…..

      • FLYJACK says:

        Nicholas Broughton,,

        Don’t see hijacking and jumping out the back of a 727 on that list..

      • FLYJACK says:

        J-Greene,

        Hahneman isn’t my suspect, I don’t own it… sell it or represent it. He was the FBI’s suspect and wasn’t eliminated. Attacking me doesn’t affect Hahneman’s bona fides… This is the strawman nature of the Cooper vortex, riddled with logical fallacies and even inventing brand new ones.. the vortex consumes logic, distorts reason and subverts critical thinking. It renders some incapable of separating their ass from the pot. It causes some to drag others down to lift their own egos, the vortex is a disease with no cure. It consumes the weak and turns them into that which they despise. The vortex is a dance with madness. The only question, is it a waltz or a tango?

    • Gypsy23 says:

      FLYJACK: More of a salsa, with lots of sauce. Don’t take these squirmishes too personal. You seem like a decent guy with some open mind. You haven’t done anything with visciousness. Only Blevins acts this way……….threatening people and sneaking up on their homes. Keep an open mind, guy. You are now a player in the NORJAK saga.

  110. Daniel meyers says:

    The problem for everyone is putting their suspect on the plane on the day in question.

  111. Nicholas Broughton says:

    14, Fits the age, height,, weight decription and was in excellent shape which would of been paramount

    15. Test Pilot for Boeing ✔️

  112. Nicholas Broughton says:

    Yes I can, Danlel.

  113. Daniel meyers says:

    Has anyone ID him as Cooper?

    • FLYJACK says:

      Hahneman – NORJAK witness statements..

      _________ stated the photos of _______ represented an individual that to him ______ were the closest he has seen to his recollection of unsub.

      _________ stated that based on the photographs he could not say that ______ was identical with unsub, however, he could not say that he was not identical.

      Side view __________________ stated that based on the photograph he could not say that _____ was not identical with unsub.

      ______ believed the photograph of ______ bore a very strong resemblance to the hijacker. He particularly noted the hairline, stating that if the hair in the photograph was marcelled as was the hijacker’s, it would be an exceptionally good likeness.

      He was unable to determine from the photograph the complexion of ______ but again emphasized the hijacker had a swarthy or Latin type complexion and it appeared to him ______ might have such a complexion.

  114. FLYJACK says:

    Another interesting point… (circumstantial)

    Tosaw… “Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, “Don’t worry, I’ve got some pills that will keep them awake”.

    Hahneman hijacking..

    Transmissions overheard on airport radio frequencies indicated the hijacker had asked for evening newspapers and five stimulant tablets.

    AND..
    During Hahneman’s hijacking he took dramamine, half pill given to First Officer (on demand)

  115. Daniel meyers says:

    Flyjack- you have a very good suspect, that one could argue that may have been on the plane. Most people can build a strong circumstantial for their suspect, but I think that you have gone a step further with your suspect.

    • FLYJACK says:

      It is still a strong circumstantial argument. The strongest by far. Reading the FBI docs on Hahneman is compelling, even the crew remarked that they thought it was DB Cooper.

      • FLYJACK says:

        They recovered Hahneman’s narrow tie on the hijacked plane… could test it now but it is probably long gone…

  116. Terry Battcher says:

    Johnnie Greene says:
    January 2, 2019 at 2:23 pm

    FLY:
    ALL suspects jumped at 8:13 PM on 11/24/71. Every damn one of them. It was hard to get them all out of the fucking door before they flew over Portland. Best damn display of jumpers. Quite a fight at Tina’s Bar over the booty, but I hear they all got a piece of the action. Your suspect is in there too. He was number 141 to open his chute.

    Ha, ha, ha, I agree!

  117. FLYJACK says:

    Tom Kaye’s talk from Conference.

    • Gypsy23 says:

      Thanks Flyjack. Tom gave a very good presentation. Does anybody have Tom’s CV? Does anyone know his list of academic degrees or qualifications for peer reviewing purposes?
      Here are some of my opinions and questions:
      1. The tie analysis casts a wide net and does not narrow a list of suspects. And it does not create a new list of suspects.
      Why? Because it cannot be confirmed that the tie belonged to the hijacker. Most likely, based on early FBI 302’s, the tie was probably worn by Cooper when he first entered the aircraft and later placed it on seat 18E, as his calling card, before he exited the plane. There is no way to establish ownership of the tie prior to his boarding the flight. Cooper was so meticulous in not leaving evidence, the more likely scenario is that he purchased the tie used, or stole it, prior to boarding flt. 305.
      2. How much “other” contact did the tie have after 11/24/71? The FBI most certainly studied the tie and shipped it to WA DC for examination in the preceding 40 years before Kaye conducted research. There could have been much material cross-contamination of the tie, including prior handling and testing.
      3. The matter of titanium is certainly a valuable area of inquiry, but not at all conclusive that Cooper worked in a machine shop. What machinist wears his tie exposed while working in a machinist’s environment?
      4. Even though the tie is the only real physical component that seemingly is part of Cooper, it is far too speculative to conclude that he must have worked in a particular field or industry.

      I would give Mr. Kaye an “A” for effort and postulation of scientific examination, but a D for conclusive reasoning. Without establishing long-term control of the tie, a good investigator would say that this evidence points in no direction whatsoever. It does not establish a suspect, or even a plausible profile of the actual suspect, without knowing for certain that Cooper had long-term control and possession of the tie. It appears that he gave it up freely during the crime, which contradicts the modus operandi of all other aspects of this hijacker.

      My impression: the tie is another decoy to send weary investigators intentionally down the wrong path.

      • Marla says:

        100%. Excellent comments and analysis.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        I think Tom Kaye actually mentioned in his presentation that the DNA taken off of the tie showed as many as 15 different profiles. So, simple logic would suggest that many different individuals wore that tie. It easily could have been purchased at a Goodwill store or taken from someone. The non-organic compounds/elements found on the tie prove nothing at all when coupled with evidence of so many other biological profiles also found. A complete dead end for any rational investigator. And a huge waste of personal resources too. But fun to listen to in the VORTEX, which eventually gets everyone, even Tom.

      • FLYJACK says:

        Handled the tie not wore it, probably mostly FBI people..

      • TED says:

        Sorry Flyjack. Gypsy’s logic is valid. 15 different biological DNA profiles on the tie. Yet, Tom Kaye hangs his hat on the metal samples as ultimate proof that DB Cooper worked in the aerospace industry as a machinist? Terrible logic. Those facts dont reconcile and would be tossed out of a courtroom proceeding. Trace metallic evidence can be used forensically IF connected to one individual. Here, not only are there 15 individuals, but we dont know who ANY of them are. This is evidentiary failure which doesn’t get to the sniff test. The tie is a red herring unless you can isolate to one individual. That style of black tie was common amongst military dress uniforms in the 60’s and 70’s. And, a better focus would be the tie-tac clip, rather than the tie. The DNA taken from the tie was found on the neck-clip, showing that many individuals actually WORE that tie. Tom’s own facts in his presentation misplace the direction of a rational conclusion.

      • FLYJACK says:

        No way, 15 different people wearing a $1.50 tie in 6 years is silly.. More likely it was contamination from handling in the 30 years after..

        The FBI claimed 3 DNA profiles in 2001, it was Tom that later claimed 14-15 partial profiles based on his knowledge of files. We don’t really know were they all came from.

      • Gypsy23 says:

        That’s the point, Flyjack. Tom had unfettered access to the FBI files, not you and I. It was Tom who made the statement in his presentation that there were 15 different profiles. The ONLY place where a DNA sample could be taken was on the tie-clip where it comes in contact with the neck. The claim back as early as 2004 was made by the FBI that they could take some epitheleal skin samples off of the clip. Later, the FBI stated that the samples taken
        showed too much denigration of the DNA sample for any meaningful analysis. 35 years does that to DNA. Like you, I also heard that there were only three profiles from the tie. No idea where Tom came up with 15? Did your suspect smoke? Apparently they found traces of lighted match residue on the tie. Anyway, I’m not here to piss and moan at you. Just stating my own opinion. That’s all.

      • FLYJACK says:

        He isn’t my suspect, he should be everyone’s until he can be eliminated.. he was an FBI suspect because he committed a similar hijacking of a 727 six months after NORJAK. I can’t find any evidence that he was ever eliminated.

        The FBI failed to recognize that the tie was manufactured in 1964-65, something easy to do from the labels. So, the tie particles had about 6 years and many environments to accumulate those particles.

        Hahneman was a smoker, he demanded and received 2000 Benson & Hedges cigarettes which he opened during the hijacking. He also left a package of Viceroy’s in an overcoat he left on the plane. Viceroy’s were filtered and equivalent to Raleigh’s both made by B & W.. the difference was the marketing.

  118. FLYJACK says:

    Vern Jones talk from Conference (Walter Reca)

  119. FLYJACK says:

    Bruce Smith talk from Conference (Tena Bar)

  120. Terry Battcher says:

    I think that you also have to look at odds of such a tie with so many highly specialized particles on it ending up in a thrift store, as being very very low. My take is that the tie holds a series of messages. I assert that the odds are also very low that one particular person is normally gonna get such a large list of highly specialize particles on his own tie. Otherwise, you are willfully assuming that all of the locations holding these microscopic particles were very very sloppy operations. I also highly doubt the one particular manufacturing facility is gonna uses each and every one of the highly specialized particles inclusively on one manufactured item, or even ten or twenty different items. Think all of the evidence through very carefully before leaping to conclusions, please.

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