By Bruce A. Smith
Concerns about the flight path abound in the DB Cooper case despite the 47-years since the iconic skyjacking occurred, and the closing the case in 2016 by the FBI due to a lack of any new information or suspects.
Nevertheless, citizen sleuths are carrying the torch, searching for the truth of America’s only unsolved skyjacking. The height of these inquiries deals with the location of DB Cooper’s plane when he jumped at 8:13 pm on November 24, 1971. Was it over Battleground, Washington as the FBI has long-professed? If so, why hasn’t anything ever been found in the FBI’s primary search area near Ariel and Amboy, Washington?
Further, why was $6,000 worth of Cooper’s ransom money discovered at Tina Bar, near Vancouver, WA, in 1980 – about 25 miles west of the FBI’s nominal flight path and landing zone?
As a result, the “FBI’s Flight Path,” long-touted as the Victor-23 air corridor flown by all aircraft heading south of Seattle when 10,000 feet in altitude as was Cooper’s 727 jetliner, is now being openly questioned by many investigators. Due to oscillations in the aircraft and a major “pressure bump” at 8:13 pm, it is believed that Cooper jumped out of his airplane at that time, but the big question remains: where was Flight 305 at 8:13 exactly?
To find an answer, researchers are striving to learn more about the high-tech SAGE radar system that tracked DB Cooper and his hijacked aircraft, Northwest Orient Flight 305, when it left Seattle and started flying to Mexico, as instructed by Cooper.
One Mountain News-WA reader who posts frequently at the DB Cooper threads, named “Flyjack,” has discovered a member of the 1971 SAGE team that was stationed at McChord Air Base in Tacoma, WA. Recently, Flyjack gave me the contact information for a David Morgan, and I spoke with Mr. Morgan today.
Morgan was indeed a SAGE operator stationed at McChord in November, 1971, but he was not on duty the night of the skyjacking. Nevertheless, we spoke at length about the technical capacities of the SAGE system and events surrounding the involvement of SAGE, McChord, and his 25th Air Defense Command based at McChord.
Morgan is a humble man, and warned me that some of his 47-year-old memories might be a little fuzzy. However, he confirmed that the SAGE system could only pick up a skydiver if chaff – tiny slivers of aluminum foil – was used to amplify the radar’s bounce-back signal. Since we know the chutes were delivered directly from civilian sources to NWO, it is highly likely that chaff was not used. As a result, the SAGE didn’t spot Cooper leaving his airplane.
Morgan also gave me an interesting military perspective on the Cooper skyjacking. He and many others at McChord were concerned that Cooper might use the airplane as a weapon and fly it into a military installation, or a nuclear reactor, such as the Hanford reactor and its supply of plutonium. He was quite passionate about this possibility, and acknowledged it presaged by thirty years the fears now borne by 9-11. In fact, he indicated that the primary purpose of the pursuit planes, the so-called “alert birds,” was to shoot down Cooper and his airplane if he strayed too close to a military installation, or gave indications that he might crash the aircraft into a critical civilian site.
Following that exchange, I shared with Morgan published reports that a Major Dan Dawson – once he left the Air Force and was a WA State Legislator – had told a local Washington state journalist named Adele Ferguson that he was in charge of the DB Cooper search at McChord and commanding “alert birds” of the 318th Fighter Squadron, specifically F-106 interceptors, to shadow Flight 305. He also told Ferguson that he was also preparing parachutes for Cooper, and had been instructed by his NORAD command to not put chaff in the chutes.
Morgan and I talked at length about the vagaries of truth when power, money, and prestige are in play. He served tours in Vietnam and SE Asia, and has heard about MAC-V-SOG, the secret Special Forces units that fought outside of Vietnam and whose members feel strongly that DB Cooper was one of their guys.
As for SAGE radar, Morgan told me that it was a fine system, but inadequate – even for 1971. He said that the units Back East couldn’t handle the air traffic – commercial and military – on some days, and sort out the good guys from the baddies. “New York and northern Virginia just had too many aircraft,” he told me. On the West Coast however, Morgan said they tracked all commercial and military aircraft with routine comprehensiveness.
He also described the SAGE system as being IBM’s first, and last, vacuum tube system for the military. The tubes created so much heat that they provided all the heat necessary for a three-story building, where one whole floor was dedicated to the SAGE processors.
What SAGE excelled at, according to Morgan, was sorting out radar signals in weak or overlapping areas where conventional signals were hard to correctly identity. SAGE was able to prioritize and deliver accurate data when other systems were unable. Morgan confirmed that SAGE could fly the F-106s to their targets, and also fire their weapons remotely. He also said that F-101s in Portland, F-102s in Boise, and Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) interceptors on Vancouver Island in British Columbia were all linked into the SAGE and the 25th Air Defense based at McChord.
Yes, this was a delightful conversation with Mr. Morgan, but many questions still remain unanswered. Such is the Hunt for DB Cooper.
The Mountain News - WA 
Let me be the first to comment under the “new” DB Cooper article. It will be nice to post–and review–DBC related material without having to drop down 1150 comments.
Cheers!
Agreed!
This new thread certainly saves a lot of scrolling time. Thanks, Bruce.
Great article, Bruce. Thanks.
Thank you, all. And thanks to FJ for the contact info on Dave.
This is relevant here..
FBI Cooper file PART 13 P 2908
“He wanted us to send him a map showing the flightpath and headings in Washington and Oregon.
I had one of the maps which we obtained from SAGE sent to him by courier on the night of 12/2/71. This was handled by SA_ _____ ”
Eric,, EU wrote
“It is noteworthy that in August of 1972 the FBI reviewed the NORJAK file which led to some things including what they termed “a more accurate method of plotting of radar data of the NORJAK flight using a computer.” Additionally, they said a “new search area” was plotted and searched with negative results.
SAGE? Why the uncertainty?”
Your answer is in the files… they used a more accurate method for plotting the SAGE data, from a 1 mile error to 1/2 mile.
FBI FILE PART 30 P 10802
Re: Seattle airtel to the Bureau, 2/7/73.
SEARCH AREA AND COURSE
In attempt to determine the accuracy of the first search area, the following was learned:
The first search area was calculated using a system of plotting known as “GEOREF” (i.e. Geographical Reference) which has a plotting error of plus or minus one mile. A new system using latitude and longitude has a plotting error of plus or minus 1/2 mile. Using the new system, ___________ Northwest Orient Airlines ________ plotted a new course for the Norjak airplane and a new search area based on the new course. The new search area is partially outside the first area.
It is felt that if Unsub’s parachute opened, he is no longer in the southwest Washington area, but if his parachute did not open, he would be in a corridor along the flight path. The time of jump is known, and an area approximately one mile by seven represents the area Unsub. would have landed in if his parachute did not open.
Seattle Division is currently making arrangements to search that portion of the above described area not previously searched.
Where and how is it outside the first search area? Show a map?
Point A was moved slightly,, area was searched in March 73.
Ayn Dietrich-Williams
I just received an email from Ayn D-W, the PIO for the DB Cooper case at the Seattle Division of the FBI. She is leaving her position there for “other opportunities.” She gave me a new email address for future contact with the Seattle office concerning DB Cooper: Ayn leaves at the end of May, 2019.
seattle.media@fbi.gov
377 gave us the following info on SAGE, F-106s, and skydivers in an email today. Paraphrased, he said:
David Morgan’s information needs some clarification: the F 102 and F 101 were not capable of being guided by SAGE flight control. Only F 106. Any fighter interceptor could get voice intercept vectors from SAGE but only F 106 had the MA1 data link flight control system.
Like many radar operators, he may be mistaken about chaff being necessary to see a jumper. But it would sure make it easier. Only really useful after canopy opens and releases a chaff cloud.
I talked with a SAGE tech years ago. He said the main reason you’d never see Coopers exit on SAGE is that the screen area immediately around the primary echo (tracked aircraft) was blocked out on the CRT screen and used to display data concerning the target.
I posted an image of the 727 emergency door/placard at DZ and it does not match the Hicks placard…
The Cowlitz sheriff was convinced the placard came from Cooper but the FBI wasn’t and they had to walk it back..
This article plus the images/info I found convince me that it is very unlikely the placard came from Cooper. This is the crazy nature of this Cooper case, what at first seems to be a fact just isn’t.
Eugene Register-Guard Jan 19,1979
Decal’s link to hijacker discounted
“SEATTLE (AP) – a heavy plastic placard found in a heavily forested area of southwest Washington could have dropped off any passing Boeing 727, not necessarily the plane skyjacked by the legendary D.B.Cooper, officials acknowledge.
The FBI said Thursday the placard could have dropped from a plane during a re-enactment of the incident six weeks after the 1971 hijacking.
Cowlitz County Sheriff Les Nelson said the placard was of the type posted next to the rear exits of 727’s and added, “It’s one in a million that any other plane could have lost it in the area in which D.B. Cooper jumped.”
The FBI, however, said the placard, posted on the outside of the jetliner, could have dropped off almost any 727 that flew over southwest Washington during the past eight years.
Ray Mathis, FBI spokesman in Seattle, said the hijacked plane was used in a simulation of the hijacking, and, “we noticed the decal was missing after that, but not before.”
Those placards have been known to fall off on the runway,” added a Boeing spokesman.
It was disclosed Wednesday that an elk hunter found the notice last November about 12 miles east of Kelso.The discovery was kept quiet while FBI and Cowlitz County sheriff’s detectives tried to verify the placard’s origin.
A person identifying himself as D.B. Cooper hijacked a Northwest Orient plane Thanksgiving eve on a flight between Portland and Seattle. He received $200,000 and jumped from the plane. Authorities have seen neither Cooper nor the money since.”
Are you paying attention EU and R99…. you are relying on a weak assumption and poor analysis to discount overwhelming evidence for the flightpath.
Your alternate flightpath is DOA.
The real takeaway and more important is the wind direction, shocker, it was an assumption by the FBI.. they used data from Portland and Salem averaged from 8-9..
Wind data closer to 8 and closer to the jump zone indicates the wind was actually more ESE to S when/where Cooper jumped and that would spin the LZ slightly.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I talk about the colorful and controversial Earl Cossey.
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If you aren’t Eric of Portland how could you possibly know anything about Earl Cossey? Did you ever talk to Earl Cossey and if so when? Did you talk to any of his family, his students, his work associates, etc? And why does the world suddenly have to rely on YOU for NORJAK information? Who are you anyway!?
Dear Easter Bunny, you sound more like Robert Blevins bitching that someone has more to offer the DBC case than Blevins. Eulis offers some interesting stuff and does it with class. All Bevins offers areccamping trips that he eventually canels anyway because no one else enrolls in his trips. Who would listen to a Blevin’s bites on the internet?
I’ve heard that Cossey initially claimed that Norman Hayden was the owner of the back chutes. Do you have the 302 where he is stating this? I’d love to see it.
I mean I’ve NEVER heard that Cossey said Hayden was the owner.
FBI summary – he “packed” and “furnished” Hayden two “emergency” chutes around May 1971.. that doesn’t mean Cossey knew which back chutes actually went to the plane or were used by Cooper.
The back chute found on the plane by the National Guard does NOT match the one Hayden got back. There had to be at least one other back chute involved, mixed in.
FBI P 1950
EARL J. COSSEY, 349 North 101st, Seattle, telephone SU3-0475, appeared at the Seattle Office at which time he furnished the following information:
He is a master parachute rigger and jump instructor at Seattle Sky Sports, Issaquah, Washington, telephone EX2-3050.
In May, 1971, _____________ Washington, ____________ needed two parachutes, COSSEY packed two parachutes which were furnished to _______ on or about May, 1971. He described these as back packs, commonly referred to as “emergency” parachutes. He also packed the two chest pack parachutes which were furnished to Northwest Airlines on November 24, 1971.
The two parachutes recovered from the Northwest Airlines flight 305 at Reno, Nevada, on November 24, 1971, were described in detail to COSSEY at which time he described the missing back pack parachute as having a sage green nylon container, model NB6 (Navy Back pack 6) with sage green nylon harness, which harness has no “D” rings to mount a chest pack. The parachute is a 28 foot nylon white flat circular with a specially fitted foam padded cushion. The pilot chute is also white.
Mr. COSSEY said that the missing chest pack parachute is a ground training pack dummied up to look like a good one. He said that by “dummied up” he means that tie downs were attached to the container. This chest pack was devised by COSSEY to teach trainees hung in a harness how to open the chest pack in the event of an emergency. The folds of the parachute are sewen together to preclude the parachute opening in the training room. Mr. COSSEY said that the back packs furnished the hijacker did not have the necessary hooks on the harness to attach a chest pack.
FBI P 4955
11/26/71
Nevada State Air National Guard, Reno Airport, Reno, Nevada, advised that after examining a parachute which was found on the Northwest airplane, which was hi-jacked in Seattle, Washington on November 24, 1971, and landed in Reno, Nevada, that this parachute was a 1960 model, 24 feet in length, Conacol type commercial parachute, manufactured by the Pioneer Parachute Company. _______ stated that this parachute was in very good condition and capable of being operated at any time. ___________ also found a white card card located in a pocket on this parachute, which indicated that this was inspected on May 21, 1971 by E.J. COSSEY, Riggers, license number 1579638. This card also the name of the Brown Engineering Company, Post Office Box 1436, Patterson, California, 95363.
FLY is an outstanding researcher. Better than SNOWMMAN.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss a couple of DB Cooper mistakes that may help us solve the mystery.
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Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the psychological profile of DB Cooper.
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What evidence do you have that the stews returned/refused money from Cooper?
It’s in the FBI interviews with the FAs.
Any profile of skyjackers, especially of an extortion-like scenario such as Cooper, is incomplete without bringing the profiles of Robb Heady and other DBC copycats into the mix.
I think Hubbard’s analysis is not highly regarded at this point. I haven’t read the book, but it does seem antiquated and slanted. He salient point about the distorted sexual nature of skyjackers – basically being “mamma’s boys” – I find lacking in depth and meaning.
Eric, your clip above gets the conversation started, but there is much more to discuss. We know a lot about Robb Heady, Richard McCoy, and Martin McNally ( a real piece of work in my view – a real criminal in heart and soul). Lots of background. We have a book from Robb’s first wife talking about their relationship and his skyjacking. We have McNally on hours worth of podcasts, and McCoy has a whole book written about him, plus associated papers and commentaries – such as the role of his wife Karen.
As for suspects, does anyone think Sheridan Peterson is a Momma’s Boy? Not me. Yes, he has uneven relationships with women – we don’t even know if his last wife is alive or dead, nor the circumstances surrounding her fate, but still…
And Rackstraw? A Momma’s Boy? Hardly. A killer, yes, as his family is convinced that Airborne Bob whacked his step-daddy and then buried him in the gravel driveway. Nice guy, but he doesn’t even come close to fitting the Hubbard profile, as I know it.
As for Geoffrey Gray, everything he gives to the conversation has to be taken with a grain of salt, imho. He is so enamored of Robert Gregory, yet no one knows where Gregory sat on 305. The 302s are inconclusive and conflicting – one has him sitting in 18 C, along with DBC, Tina, and Bill Mitchell. A tight squeeze, I should say. But GG can’t resolve that dilemma.
And Gregory’s testimony is such an extreme out-lier. A maroon-colored suit? Really? And Tina missed that? Yougottabekiddingme….
It is hard not to suspect that GG has a hidden agenda at play when it comes to DB Cooper. Remember, GG has yet to explain how he got such unprecedented access to the files and evidence in 2009 and 2010 – but he couldn’t find Tina and BEGGED Galen to tell him where she was.
Yes, DB Cooper’s behavior is uneven and odd. Giddy and childlike when he got the money? Really? How bizarre.
But Eric, making leaps of faith about DBC being broke, out of work, and getting harassed by his wife for being a loser???? …Sigh. That is so unfounded. It’s possible, sure, but c’mon. The guy pulled off a stunt that the FBI didn’t think could be done, plus he knew more about the 727 than the pilots. That’s not the profile of a wannabe loser, imho.
Hubbard’s psychological analysis is legitimate for the subjects he studied. However, extortion was not a common theme among this group. I will also say that the gravity stuff is bizarre.
The parts I found interesting relate to the childhood struggles and the unaccomplished adult aspect. Something shapes a person’s mind to make them capable of skyjacking a jet and bailing out mid-flight with 200K as a 40-something.
I firmly believe that DBC was the consummate underachiever. That he felt as if he was the smartest guy in the room and that he was underappreciated. Moreover, that he felt somewhat uncomfortable around women. These are psychological aspects of DBC’s personality that I suspected before reading Hubbard’s book. After reading the book it seemed to validate some of my thoughts.
Sheridan is a completely separate subject. That said, my analysis of DBC fits Sheridan to a T.
I’ve posed this question to others before: Take an expert skydiver such as 377. If something along the lines of NORJAK happened today, and the culprit fit the description of 377, no one would consider for a moment that 377 had just skyjacked a jet. On the other hand, it seems that everyone who knew Sheridan actually thinks the opposite of him. Virtually all say, in effect, “yeah that sounds like Sheridan.” I find this both unusual and very telling. It’s certainly not concrete evidence of guilt, but it must be taken seriously when multiple people who know the guy actually take the time to contact the FBI and say “you may want to check this guy out.”
One final point. The Daily DB Cooper Bite is intended to briefly touch upon a subject. This is particularly noticeable when addressing a complicated subject such as today’s, or discussing suspects, such as tomorrow’s about Rackstraw. There just isn’t enough time to discuss these matters in any great detail.
Ulis’ review is nonsense. He has no credentials in these matters any more than he is certified to work on the Space Shuttle. He has no way to put Hubard’s old work into perspective. You can find a review of Hubbard’s book on Skyjackers here: https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=2950&context=law-review Here is one passage:
“The reader must, however, be cautioned about the members of this control-group study who had no particular political ideology and who, according to Dr. Hubbard, were psychotic.4 Since the study does not include politically motivated skyjackers who do not fit the Hubbard mold, these findings can only be of limited value. Dr. Hubbard’s study suggests that there is no such thing as a normal political skyjacker, and in fact, even those who claim to be so, may have been acting and feeling as a group in the same manner as the individual skyjackers he studied. Thus, there is limited utility in Hubbard’s model since it rejects a large population of known skyjackers. ”
One need only remind everyone of the FAA Psychiatrist that gave the crew of 305 a useless inaccurate diagnosis and predictions. Hubbard may fall in the same mold. But of course Mr. Ulis would not know that. However, that does not stop Mr. Ulis from giving his own opinions, on matters he knows nothing about! You can find almost anything on the internet. Mr. Ulis is making sure of that!
I agree, the bite is only that – not a full meal. In the case of the topic of a psychological profile of Cooper, I suggest that we have many “bites.” First, the Hubbard perspective. Then perhaps others, such as violent criminals like McNally and Rackstraw.
As for “firmly believ(ing) that DB Cooper was an underachiever,” that subject is certainly worthy of an entire bite of its own. I don’t see it. Let’s hear more on this, Eric.
Nailed it,, finally found out what Hahenman was doing in Vietnam… matches the Cooper tie date 1965+ and matches the environment/occupation for those particles..
Operation “BACK PORCH” from 1965+…
Okay, you nailed it, FJ. But what exactly did you nail? Details, please.
Here is a synopsis of Hubbard’s book. Thanks to the above commentator who left the link.
BOOK REVIEW
THE SKYJACKER-HIS FLIGHTS OF FANTASY.
By DAVID G. HUBBARD. New York: The Macmillan Company, 1971. Pp. 262. $5.95.
The author is a Dallas psychiatrist with special training in psychoanalysis who, in addition to his private psychiatric practice, serves as consultant to the United States Public Health Research Center in Fort Worth, Texas, and to the Medical Center for Federal Prisoners in Springfield, Missouri. He came quite by accident to the scientific study of skyjackers early in January, 1967 when he was called to examine two skyjackers being held in a federal prison facility. Both men were examined on the same day and that coincidence allowed him to recognize several striking similarities in the psychological patterns of both offenders.
The occasion set this trained scientist on the trail of the pathological skyjacker.1Dr. Hubbard recalls his difficulties with governmental bureaucracy when he proposed to follow this lead but was able, nevertheless, to conduct taped interviews with twenty skyjackers the results of which are published in this book. Sixteen of the twenty failed in their attempts and four reached Cuba, but Dr. Hubbard does not distinguish between failures and successes. The conclusion which emerges from Dr. Hubbard’s study dispels the image of the “average” skyjacker as being a rugged revolutionary type fighting against “capitalistic” oppression, a la “Che” Guevara. The profile which emerges shows these individuals as shy, timid, sexually passive, generally apolitical and almost always consistent failures in almost everything they have ever attempted: marriage, sex, business, and social activity in general. Their appearance is one of helplessness, except for the few exhilarating moments when they seize control of the aircraft. This then became the only diversion from a previous life pattern wherein they had felt dominated and overpowered by circumstances which guided and determined their hapless and helpless lives. Their childhood usually revealed conflict between a violent and often alcoholic father and a very religious and zealous mother, who was usually dominated and abused by the father.
[The term “skyjacker” is not a legal term referring to a person who engages in the unlawful seizure of aircraft. It is the author’s catchy word of art designed to capture the imagination of the potential reader. A discussion of the Tokyo and Hague Conventions on unlawful seizure of aircraft is contained in Professor Sundberg’s article supra at -and Mr. Klimek’s comment, supra at -.2. For an excellent book review, see Fletcher Knebel, Look, 23-26, February 9, 1971. [On figures in hijackings until 1969, see Evans, Aircraft Hijacking: Its Cause and Cure, 63 AJIL 695 (1969); for a comprehensive study of cases and disposition, see Hirsch and Fuller, Aircraft Piracy and Extradition, 26 N.Y.L. FORUM 392 (1970)]
This rather typical Freudian observation is discussed in lay terms and adds nothing to existing scientific knowledge as to the individuals; but the similarities among the interviewed cases is a significant observation. Dr. Hubbard proposes an interesting theory on the effects of the force of gravity, particularly on the vestibulor apparatus of the inner ear, which produces the “sense of balance” necessary to ambient physical reality and the potential damage to this human mechanism (Meniere’s disease), resulting in vertigo, loss of hearing, and other symptoms. He suspects that many skyjackers suffered from some mild impairment of the inner ear during childhood which, he surmises, produced severe psychological effects in these individuals. The “crypto-vestibular” data collected by the author during these interviews, reveals that almost all of the interviewed skyjackers had early childhood memories of being in a prone or supine position and unable to rise, or being very frightened and unable to move. This hypothesis fits in the projected image of the skyjacker as Dr. Hubbard sees him.
He discloses also that the interviewed subjects had had vivid dreams of flying and were generally obsessed with space; some even had taken flying lessons at one time and most of them had watched the television coverage of space shots with intensive interest. He concluded from this observation that the incidence of skyjacking increased in direct proportion to the intensity of the news coverage of space related activities, observing that skyjackings are almost non-existent during periods when there are no reported space activities. He noted that as soon as astronauts are back on Earth and the news has been absorbed, skyjackings be-gin to occur. This observation is of limited scientific value, however, since the experiment itself is not of such a nature as to justify generalizations of this variety.
Although interest in space or atmospheric flight is not a determinative factor by itself, it is revealing of something which all other humans share with the skyjackers, namely, the awareness that they are “tied” or “held” to Earth by a force which, although invisible, is an integral part of their lives. The urge to feel free, however, is not demonstrative of any pen-chant for skyjacking an aircraft. Dr. Hubbard points out that the first thing a newborn infant becomes aware of is the force of gravity. This experience begins in the sac of amniotic fluid inside his mother’s body when the unborn child is in a state of suspension or weightlessness, hence, the tendency to seek the feeling thereafter. While only a few individuals can experience actual space flight, anyone with the price of an airline ticket can break away from Earth and fly, for a time at least, experiencing this innate sense of freedom and freedom from the actual sensation of gravitational pull. The skyjackers Dr. Hubbard studied are viewed by him as trying to “break away” or “rise above” their sense of being “held down” by the reality of their lives, while at the same time defying the force of gravity on board the aircraft. Dr. Hubbard goes so far as to state that “[t]he fear of gravitational pull may well serve as the paradigm of all subsequent fears.” Skyjackers are still, according to the author, not usually frightened by the dangers of their conduct, because they are rather pathetic individuals who are not prone to violence and who are in need of psychiatric help. This is a conclusion which this reviewer fails to note as necessarily logically resulting from the author’s premise.
Dr. Hubbard is very critical of the attitudes of public officials, judicial officers, airline officials and flight personnel, which he sees as simplistic and vindictive-oriented, seeking only the punishment of the offenders and not their rehabilitation or treatment. With the present state of penology in the United States, this position is very defensible. The solution to the problem of skyjacking, asserts Dr. Hubbard, lies in more research by competent psychiatrists with such persons held in custody throughout the world in order that more can be learned about them. Dr. Hubbard rejects punitive measures such as armed aerial guards and the imposition of the death penalty, which increase the challenge to the skyjacker and ‘actually stimulate the occurrence of skyjackings.
The reader must, however, be cautioned about the members of this control group study who had no particular political ideology and who, according to Dr. Hubbard, were psychotic. Since the study does not include politically motivated skyjackers who do not fit the Hubbard mold, these findings can only be of limited value.
Dr. Hubbard’s study suggests that there is no such thing as a normal political skyjacker, and in fact, even those who claim to be so may have been acting and feeling as a group in the same manner as the individual skyjackers he studied. Thus, he transplants psychological findings of individuals to a social-psychological pattern wherein the group as a whole recognized that they were in a desperate and helpless condition and that they were doomed to failure unless they so acted.
This hypothesis can only be established after further study, for, as Dr. Hubbard asserts, the solution to the skyjacking problem can only come after we find out exactly who the skyjackers are and what motivates them. That in itself, however, allows a contrary assertion that such motivating force can well be political or humanitarian.
The few cases he studied cannot account for the many successful and abortive ones wherein the perpetrator acts out of deep commitment to an ideology or out of determination to strike out against oppressive political conditions. Certainly, any person defiant of authority can be found to act in a manner reflective of his self-conception which can be retraced to his childhood, his inner pressures and social milieu impact. All of these factors do not, however, by themselves take that type of behaviour outside the norm of accepted social behaviour if the group shares the basic values which the actor represented by his manifested conduct. As the first study of its kind, this book is most illuminating, but its sampling and conclusions have limited relevance. Would anyone question that in a psychopathic ward the patients are psychopaths? For the lawyer, the book offers no more than insight into some forms of psychosis and a description of psychological factors leading to this type.
[Cf. Bassiouni, Ideologically Motivated Offenses and the Political Offenses Exception in Extradition-A Proposed Juridical Standard for an Unruly Problem,19 DEPAUL L. REV. 217 (1969).]
It does not show how to detect nor does it reveal how to cope with this type of psychosis, but merely offers a hypothesis of its raison d’etre after it has once manifested itself. The criticism leveled against the system of criminal justice is reminiscent of Dr. Karl Meninger’s description in his book The Crime of Punishment. The Skyjacker is essentially like any other offender, aware of the legal proscription but unaffected by its intended deterrent effect. Like other offenders he engages in his antisocial behaviour for a variety of reasons which lead him to that tragic conclusion. That we should know more about what actuates people’s antisocial behaviour is axiomatic if we are to evolve an enlightened system of legal prevention and social control of harmful behaviour.
M. C. Bassiouni
Of note on Hubbard, he interviewed a total of 20 skyjackers. Oddly, he found most of them to be psychotic, as I understand his findings.
I still enjoy EU’s Cooper bites. Didn’t Bruce say that Tina Mucklow’s psychological profile is far more tantalizing than Cooper’s. There’s one more for EU.
I don’t recall saying anything like that, Marla. Regardless, I am fascinated BOTH by Tina and Danny Boy.
Question for Eric: does the Hubbard profiling of skyjackers fit Sheridan Peterson?
The profile put forward by Hubbard does not precisely fit Sheridan. No profile can.
The critical points in my mind relate to the troubled childhood, failures in life, non-violence, desire to reassert control over one’s life, challenges with women, and lack of fear of the inherent dangers of skyjacking a jet.
In those areas the profile looks very similar to Sheridan.
DB Cooper was not a politically motivated skyjacker. He wasn’t a terrorist. He was down on his luck and was tired of getting rolled in life.
C’mon Eric, Ya gotta tell us WHY you say things like “down on his luck” and “tired of getting rolled in life.”
Those are SO speculative and come from far out on a limb, as far as I can tell.
It is important to understand that all of this is speculation. How can it not be? Who among us knows DB Cooper? Unless someone actually knows the guy personally, we are left only to speculate based upon things we’ve observed.
Fact is this is just performance art on your part, and you can forget the ART! You are no psychologist – you may need one. At best you are an Impersonator. Why did DB Cooper forums deserve your favors or attention? Were you looking to reform everyone?
I actually think Eulis is heading in the right direction. Keep plugging!!!
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC suspect Robert Rackstraw.
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Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss whether the FBI is still holding any information back. If so, why and what could it be?
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Here we go………………………
Aviation Week Dec 6, 1965 ran an article on a 727 prototype testing for the military (727M)… including a ventral drop test.
“Air drop tests with the 727 prototype indicate that loads up to 30 x 55 x 135 in could be dropped through the rear stairwell”
Click to access Aviation_Week_1965-02-15.pdf
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Hot cocoa and cookies along the way?
Or, is it just Van Camp pork and beans by the fire?
Eric believes Cooper was Sheridan Peterson, he doesn’t match.
The ONLY known suspect that matches the description of Cooper is Hahneman. Honduran mother, German father.
Cooper was olive, swarthy and latin in appearance, characteristics and descent, also described as possible Mexican or American-Indian.
and don’t give me the suntan in late November nonsense.
FBI PART 11 P 1922
FOLLOWING COMPOSITE TAKEN FROM INTERVIEWS OF WITNESSES WHO WERE IN A POSITION TO SEE UNSUB.
RACE, WHITE; SEX, MALE; AGE, MID FORTY’S; FIVE FT TEN TO SIX FT . , ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TO ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY POUNDS, AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH COMPLEXION, DARK BROWN OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK; SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL; EYES, POSSIBLY BROWN,
FBI PART 11 P 1982
DESCRIBED AS WHITE, MALE, MID FORTIES, SEVENTY TO ONE EIGHTY, OLIVE COMPLEXION, OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON SMOKED RALEIGH CIGARETTES.
FBI PART 11 P 2036
Mr. MILNES said the hijacker was described as white, male, American, olive complexion, Latin appearance, black hair, normal hair style parted on left, age middle forties, six feet tall, 170 to 175 pounds, average build, brown eyes. He was wearing a black suit, white shirt, narrow black tie, black rain-type overcoat, black dress suit, and was carrying a dark briefcase.
FBI PART 11 P 2047
UNSUB described as white male, mid-forties, five ten to six feet, one seventy to one eighty, olive complexion, latin appearance, dark brown or black hair combed straight back in normal style, parted on left, smoked Raleigh cigarettes.
FBI PART 11 P 2056
that he has average eyes, of Latin appearance, with a sort of disinterested look
FBI PART 11 P 2224
WHITE, MALE, MID 40’s, 5’1011 TO 611 , 170 Tel 180 lbs., AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH, DARK BROWN OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK, SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL, POSSIBLY BROWN EYES, DURING LATTER PART OF FLIGHT PUTr DARK, WRAP-AROUND SUNGLASSES WITH DARK RIMS. LOW VOICE, SPOKE INTELLIGENTLY; NO PARTICULAR ACCENT, POSSIBLY FROM MIDWEST SECTION OF THE U.S., HEAVY SMOKER OF RALEIGH FILTER TIP CIGARETTES, WEARING BLACK OR BROWN SUIT; WHITE SHIRT; NARROW BLACK TIE; BLACK DRESS SUIT;
FBI PART 11 P 1987
COMPLEXION: OLIVE, SWARTHY, THE LATIN TYPE
FBI PART 11 P 1841
COMPLEXION: OLIVE, LATIN APPERANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH
FBI PART 18 P5497
RACE WHITE, SEX MALE, AGE MID FORTIES, HEIGHT FIVE FEET TEN INCHES TO SIX FEET, WEIGHT ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TO ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY POUNDS, BUILD AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, COMPLEXION OLIVE, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH; HAIR DARK BROWN OR BLACK, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK, SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL; EYES POSSIBLY BROWN.
FBI PART 26 P 8545
He was unable to determine from the photograph the complexion of ______ but again emphasized the hijacker had a swarthy or Latin type complexion and it appeared to him might have such a complexion.
FBI PART 26 P 8574
OLIVE OR LATIN COMPLEXION·
Key witnesses generally agree that unsub had an “olive or Latin” complexion.- One witness indicated a Mexican-American or possibly Indian complexion and characteristics. In addition, unsub expressed a desire to go “anywhere in Mexico”.
FBI PART 26 P 8881
She thereafter remained in the cockpit where she prepared thirteen pages of notes concerning the hijacking and in which she described unsub as in his fifties. She later said he appeared to be of Latin descent.
FBI PART 19 P 5934
“Enclosed is an artist’s conception of the hijacker who extorted two hundred thousand dollars from Northwest Airlines on November 24, 1971. This man is described as follows:
“Race-white; sex-male; age mid-forties; height-five feet ten inches to six feet; weight-170 to 180 pounds; build-average to well built; complexion olive, latin appearance, mediurn smooth; hair-dark brown or black; normal style, parted on left, combed back; sideburns, low ear level; eyes-possibly brown.
FBI PART 10 P 1683
said that the man appeared to be Latin descent
FBI PART 27 P 9104
To date 475 suspects have been developed based on appearance, as well as other features. Many of the suspects were developed because of their resemblance to the artist’s composite of UNSUB. A great number of these suspects have turned out to be in their 20s or early 30s, with light or fair complexion. According to witnesses, UNSUB’s age is in the mid-40s and his complexion is olive or Latin in appearance. The artist’s composite clearly looks like a man in his late 20s or 30s and his complexion is difficult to determine from the black and white sketch.
FBI PART 27 P 9390
In NORJAK case, witnesses describe subject’s complexion as olive, Latin appearance, medium smooth.
FBI PART 9 P 919
ALL OFFICES ARE TO BEAR IN MIND WHEN CAPTIONED CRIME WAS ON NOVEMBER 11, 1971, UNSUB AKA. B. COOPER WAS DESCRIBED AS BEING A WHITE MALE, 5 ‘ 10 ” TO 6 ‘ 0 “ , 170 POUNDS, OLIVE AND LATIN APPEARANCE.
FBI PART 27 P 9327
In view of the fact that unsub in this matter had a swarthy complexion and was tentatively identified by several witnesses as possibly having Mexican ancestry, the following lead is being set out:
FBI PART 13 P 3159
which he feels more closely depicts the nose and cheeks of the unknown subject, whom he feels was of Mexican-American descent with possibly lndian blood.
FBI PART 33 P 12115
indicated that the unsub’s complexion was somewhat swarthy indicating that he might have possibly been an American Indian or Mexican American.
FBI PART 26 P 8882
believed unsub was a Mexican-American. She had a short encounter with the unsub prior to her deplaning at Seattle
FBI PART 29 P 10072
similar Mexican-type facial features
FBI PART 11 P 2135
CHEEKS TOO FLAT, SHOULD BE MORE ROUNDED TO GIVE MEXICAN-AMERICAN APPEARANCE.
FBI PART 28 P 9541
lacks the Mexican or Indian characteristics that ____ noted in the hijacker.
FBI PART 28 P 9559
further advised that the hijacker definitely had some Indian or Mexican blood in him. He would guess about one quarter Indian or Mexican blood.
FBI PART 28 P 10037
FACIAL FEATURES: Should reflect a Mexican or Indian ancestry
FBI PART 11 P 2039
Race: Caucasian, believed to be of Mexican-American descent wih possibly some American Indian blood
FBI PART 34 P 13102
In view of the fact that UNSUB in this matter is possibly of American Indian descent, the following leads are being set forth pursuant to referenced communication:
Excellent research, FJ. You present a compelling case for Hahneman, and I’m looking at him in a new light – for the first time, too. Thank you.
Flyjack you are wrong when you say hahneman is the only one suspect that matches the physical description. Klansnic was was german/austrian decent and had the olive skin, had a nickname of agent orange after it! Does hahneman have the turkey gobble? unusual slant on the forehead? two crooked front teeth? Klansnic has all of those! Do you know if drank? Hahneman favorite smokes were benson and hedges and cooper smoked raleighs? hahneman showed anger on his hijacking and cooper stayed cool as a cucumber. Also evidence points to cooper bomb was fake while hahneman had a gun and threatened passengers with it.
I am not wrong.. Klansnic does not have Latin/Mexican/Native American features/characteristics/descent… that is more than just skin tone. Hahneman’s mother was Honduran.
BTW.. Eric, EU is trying to claim blue eyed fair, thin haired Sheridan had a tan excuse.. to dismiss the overwhelming witness descriptions.. intellectually dishonest Elvis.
Hahneman has the turkey gobble neck,, forehead slant,, poor teeth,, don’t know if he was a drinker. He has curly/marcelled hair that he sometimes slicks back,,, But he had Viceroy cigs on him though he demanded B&H, probably because they are high end and possibly not available in Honduras… Viceroy are filtered and virtually identical to the filtered Raleighs, the difference is marketing/coupons. Hahneman worked as a radar/tech/Elecrical Engineer all over the world. He was estranged from his family though supporting them he was away for years visiting rarely. He showed up for Christmas 1971. He was on an aircrew and had aviation knowledge.. told the hijacked crew he would fly the plane if they didn’t co-operate.
Hahneman had a briefcase bomb and threatened to blow up the plane, though the contents weren’t confirmed and the crew threw it off the plane. The circumstances were entirely different, the sky marshal program had ramped up and the crew announced to the passengers that they were being hijacked. We don’t know if Cooper had a weapon or not. The F102 chase pilots were told Cooper had a weapon, though never confirmed anywhere. Hahneman feared sky marshals and was approached by aggressive passengers. They screwed around with him as well, they gave him the wrong bill denominations which caused a 5 hour delay and faked a mechanical problem with the plane forcing him to change planes with the crew, money and parachutes. Changing planes made him extremely nervous and vulnerable to snipers. So, Cooper’s situation was a cakewalk in comparison, Hahneman was under much more pressure. The FBI response to hijackings had become very aggressive after Cooper. There were people who had contact with Hahneman that stated he was very polite.
Hahneman hijacking unsub early description was wearing a collared white shirt, narrow black tie, dark suit, overcoat, dark sunglasses and brown shoes.. no accent and intelligent. Age 45- 49, 165-170 lbs. Dark Olive, Spanish Looking, medium build, possibly also has bi-focal glasses, hair black, dark brown. 5’8″-6′ (witnesses)
There is much much more…. too much to cover here in this format.. but no known suspect is even close..
As ullis said in his cooper bite today you didn’t have to be of indian or latin origin you could of just of had a good tan from being outside a lot. Klansnic was an avid outdoorsmen and a member of the mountaineers in washington. Also in germany there was a lot of immigrants from mediterranean countries such as greece,turkey, and italy. The latino/indian interpretation seemed to be what was adopted but the olive complex is characteristic to mediterranean people. Cooper also asked for a napsack instead of a backpack which was peculiar and hinted to the fact he was a mountaineer as that is there type of lingo.
Eric is full of it.. he is making up his own reality. No witness said a tan. Features/characteristics/descent is not a tan… You two are trying to bend the facts to fit.
A knapsack was part of WW2 military paratrooper issue. Maybe into Korea as well. Military is a far more likely source than mountaineering.
fly eye witness testimony can be wonky how do they know where he is from they were just guessing they could be wrong easy to confuse mediterranean and latin. How do you account for the welding fume particles on the tie with your boy? I got 13 particle family tree match to welding fumes.
mediterranean also falls under the olive branch lol
You keep referring to skin tone,, read the FBI reports.. I summarized them..
Cooper had Latin/Mexican/Native American features/characteristics/descent. that is more than skin tone or a winter ski tan. FACIAL FEATURES.
Hahneman was a radar//radio/communications technical Engineer.
It isn’t really fair to discuss the case for Hahneman as I haven’t disclosed all of it, very little really and I have a good reason for it.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the matches Cooper used to light his cigarettes and what they can tell us.
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Brilliant deductions, Eric. Simple, but elegant – and powerful. I love how your mind works. You have such keen insights and can see w/o the cultural blinders so many of us carry, even unknowingly.
not so fast boys and girls..
The “Sky Chef” matches might have come from one of their terminal restaurants, however, they were also supplying catering on various airlines.
Sky Chef was owned by American Airlines… Cooper could have also obtained the matchbook during a flight serviced by “Sky Chef”.
The assumption that Cooper could only have obtained the matches from one of their terminal restaurants is faulty.
True, I believe. I kind of recall seeing Sky Chef matches on other flights, back when free cigarettes were passed out in little boxes of three cigarettes per box – if I remember correctly. Circa 1960s and early 70s.
What were the 16 airports that had Sky Chef restaurants? Denver and Portland were two. Were there any other ways to get those matches? Sky Chef was a catering company. Did they offer these matches in any other form such as in a package with dinner on planes or did vendors sell cigarettes and give these out? I remember when books of matches were popular (before a lot of people used lighters). You could go in anyone’s house and see many varieties of matchbooks. Just like pens and pencils with logos on them. Some of these bytes are interesting but extremely speculative.
La Guardia (LAG) was another. I grew up nearby and remember seeing Sky Chef matches all the time. Like you’ve described, they, and matchbooks in general, were ubiquitous in the daily life of America 1950-1980s.
Oops. LGA.
In the 1940s and 1950s “fast food” took on new meaning with the advent of commercial airline travel. New planes were built with pressurized cabins and cities purchased airfields originally built for World War II use.
Millions of people discovered the efficiency and convenience of flight, and as their popularity grew so did the need to feed passengers. In 1942 American Airlines, one of the first commercial aviation companies, invested $500,000 to create “Sky Chefs.”
The new food catering service provided in-flight prepared meals and operated airport restaurants. Within ten years, the company managed kitchens in 14 American cities and prepared approximately three million meals a year. In-flight menus included full-course meals complete with potato, vegetable, and meat. The hot items were precooked on the ground, stored in aluminum containers, loaded into the planes’ closetsized kitchens, and served within an hour. Cold foods including salads, rolls, and desserts were packed in dry ice to maintain freshness. For more than 20 years, Sky Chefs earned a profit each year and by 1966 represented about 3.5 percent of American Airlines’ net profit.
Much of the company’s success was due to its move toward diversification. In addition to in-flight catering services for nine different airlines, the company operated airport gift shops, cocktail lounges, and Flagship Hotels.Gross sales reached $37 million in 1966, up 40 percent from 1960’s $22 million. Sky Chef’s growth and profits continued to climb for the next several years.
As the 1970s came to a close, changes in the airline industry affected in-flight catering. In 1980 the American economy suffered a recession and surging fuel costs. As a result, domestic airlines experienced a 5 percent slump in passenger traffic, incurring more than $150 million in operating losses. The entire in-flight catering industry peaked at $1 billion in 1980, but the outlook for growth was dim.
With fewer passengers to feed, Sky Chefs recognized the continuing need for diversification and sought another market for food-on-the-go. Taking their focus away from the skies and onto the ground, the caterers found hungry travelers on the Governor Thomas E. Dewey Thruway in New York. In 1982, spending more than $4 million, Sky Chefs opened ten rest-stop restaurants along the Thruway. The chain, named “The Chefs,” improved the conditions of typical truck stops, offering modern décor, video game arcades, gift shops, and tourist information centers. For the next several years, Sky Chefs’ diversification grew and by 1985 the company had raked in revenues of $332.2 million and income of $13.6 million.
My point regarding the matches is valid no matter how it’s cut. That is, the book of matches can be used to measure and estimate time by way of the “burn rate.”.
Sure DBC could have picked the book of matches up on a flight from JFK. However, I would then expect the entire book of matches to be depleted before he arrived in Portland. Therefore, I am theorizing that he did not fly in from JFK in part for this reason.
Furthermore, remember my comments about my rationale for believing that DBC arrived from Seattle that morning. Once again, you can argue that DBC picked up the matches at Denver Stapleton and smoked on the flight to Portland, then had eight matches left over when he boarded the jet in Portland. However, it this doesn’t make sense if you consider what his next step was in Seattle if he had to abort–again with no luggage.
I believe my theory is sound. It makes sense especially when you look at the flight time table (NOTE: In the Bite I misspoke when I said the flight before 305 departed at 11:40AM. In fact, it departed PDX at 11:05AM). That said, I wasn’t there. I didn’t go along for the ride with DBC. Sure, it’s theoretically possible that he found a half-used pack of Sky Chefs matches laying on the ground at the airport. But, it strikes me as much more likely that he simply grabbed a book of Sky Chefs matches at PDX while waiting for 305 to depart. And, that DBC started his day in Seattle.
RichG. All Sky Chefs were located east of Denver and Phoenix with the exception of Portland and Hilo, Hawaii. Locations included the mid-west, JFK and Boston Logan.
My point regarding the matches is valid no matter how it’s cut. That is, the book of matches can be used to measure and estimate time by way of the “burn rate.”.
If you don’t smoke, you have a different view. matches were lost all the time, some didn’t light when trying to strike them. some kept them in pockets and others inside the pack of smokes. growing up they were in almost every drawer in our house. they were on the coffee table, end stands etc. some were new and some were used. the wind blew them out. you would get too close to the cigarette causing it to go out. some would just fail while others would light and go out quickly.
A pack of cigarettes can last someone days to weeks. keeping track of the matches were never the issue. they were all over the place and easily found.
You could actually see the one’s that would fail. the sulfur was not as big as the others. some were flat. plenty of reasons a book of matches would never last the pack.
You do know that Cooper used two books of matches.. right.
“He also wanted the empty matchbook cover from which he was lighting his cigarettes and had thrown into the back pouch of the seat in front as she said she would normally do with trash. She indicated that he had another book of matches the cover of which was blue and said, “Sky Chef.” from which she had pulled matches to light his cigarettes. He retained this book of matches.”
My comment was meant for Elvis…
her first statement says he took it back from her while throwing it away. the second statements she says he asked for it back and she indicated he had another book.
“the hijacker decisively took it from her and placed it into one of his pockets”
I’m not a math teacher, but I can add. 20 matches in a book. 8 cigarettes smoked. That means he started with 12 right? According to you that is. So he had to light 12 cigarettes at the airport? He didn’t use more than one match for a cigarette? He did not use matches to light someone else’s cigarettes somewhere? He was not a chain smoker and used a cigarette to light a cigarette? What about smoking on the incoming plane that you say came from somewhere specific?
“I believe my theory is sound” Yes, everyone involved with this case says the same thing. There was one guy that says D.B. Cooper was a woman.
You are trying to convince people that through hard work or analysis that your theory is correct. Just because you have worked hard and have come up with some math, does not mean you are correct.
In your theory you could take a random pack of matches and determine where someone was and for how long. Are you for real?
I’m almost positive I read somewhere or saw a show that had the flight attendant smoking with the hijacker. What does that do to your math?
These message boards are dominated by one person, Eric Ulis.
Was it at Portland for 8-10 plus hours smoking the 12? he was under more pressure while on the plane and only smoked 8. I’ll have to check but does Tina claim he was also out of cigarettes? I know she used the last match….
Actually, it appears he never used the Sky Chef matches….Tina doesn’t mention where the empty book of matches were from or the advertising on them..she only mentions the extra book he had (Sky Chef)
Eulis has interesting theories that haven’t been raised before. Good job, Eric. Your mind is fertile. However, there is too much speculation and supposition for any of it to weigh out in the production of evidence to advance the case. Tom Kaye’s tie particle evidence is in the same category. Cooper purchased the tie at a Goodwill store, just as he purchased his suit. He changed clothes before arriving PDX by bus. But keep going because we are really having fun now.
No it’s not particles are facts and you saying cooper purchased tie at goodwill at goodwill is speculation and bad spec at that if you use some logic and do some research (talked to some local second hand store owners from that era) you would know second had stores didn’t sell cheap clip on ties you can buy brand new for 2 bucks at the department store and you wouldn’t find a tie clip on it either that would of been taken off and put in the jewelry section but again to cheap no margins for them.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the tie and tie particles.
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Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the notion that the real DB Cooper is one of the suspects that the FBI has considered over the years.
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Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the witnesses descriptions of DB Cooper. Also, I invite people to submit short videos advocating for their suspects.
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Brilliant… Cooper aka Sheridan had a skier’s tan in late November,, flew in from Tibet,, had a beard just before the hijacking,, changed the thickness/wave and colour of his hair,, wore brown contacts, faked chain smoking, ate fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches on the way to Portland.. while imagining daisy chaining the dummy chute before flying back to Switzerland to deposit loot in his numbered account.
NO witness said a tan, they overwhelmingly described Latin/Mexican/Native American features/characteristics/descent,, that is not just skin tone.
Not all speculation is created equal… yours is complete BS.
Your low standards of reason and logic can make virtually anyone into Cooper.
Useless, why dont you stop while you’re behind. This has become ridiculous and boring. Go somewhere and pretend to be a Seal VI member?
Ulis provides food for thought.
Eric is articulate and charming.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the notion of a government cover-up in the DB Cooper case.
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Or is yours the BIG COVER UP?
I doubt Erik pays any attention whatsoever to two toes missing Mary, or any of the odd assortment of aliases used by the same mid-West sky farmer we all know by another alias name. Just more envy. Way to go, Erik. You have managed to become the new Cooper expert and commentator for the case. No small feat.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss some of the incorrect information often disseminated about DB Cooper.
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Eric Ulis rocks. He has more interesting things to say about DB Cooper than Georger, Tom Kaye, Larry Carr, National Geographic, the Travel Channel, all put together. Practical and well-reasoned. And he’s not envious like Robert Blevins and the Iowa Sky Farmer. Those two need to go camping together, or at least rent a Minnie Winnie such as Christianson and Geezeman did in 1971.
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the money find on Tena Bar.
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Clearly, the rubber bands were not intact.. your premise is false.. your conclusion self serving. Rubber band frags were attached and crumbled when picked up, an 8 yo kid couldn’t determine if they were holding packets or bundles.
There is no evidence that determines the location and extent of the rubber bands, just vague and general hearsay.
The term “intact” is clearly false. The 3 packets were completely missing a large portion of the sides/edges. Were the brittle rubber bands hanging “intact” outside the perimeter of the deteriorated packets… hard to imagine. Were rubber bands attached to each of the three packets both top and bottom.. unlikely if 20 bills were missing/deteriorated.
The bills did have holes created by bacteria, but some of the damage resembled insect damage. Kaye only examined three bills. If there were insect damage that would expose the interior to bacteria.
Some have irregular and sharp cuts..
Nice summation about the money find, Eric. Wasn’t there an investigator, who used to work with Richard Tosaw, who conducted a lot of scientific work study at Tina Bar? Can’t remember his name, but he was heavily involved in the Tina Bar aspect of the case. Do you remember?
You may be referring to Galen Cook.
Yes, Galen worked with Tosaw. In fact, Galen hired a soil erosion and hydrology team to continue the study of river dynamics at T-Bar. I believe that work is still on-going. The Travel Channel did a very light treatment of that research a few years back.
I think it is mis-leading to suggest that T-Bar is essentially an island and difficult to get to. It is not. Yes, it’s a LONG way from Vancouver – I know, I’ve walked on the way to the TC shoot in 2016 – but it is very accessible by car via Lower River Road. In fact, T-Bar is just downstream from Frenchman’s Bar County Park, which is where I waited for a ride from the TC people.
I think a better characterization of T-Bar is an isthmus into a flood plain. Lower River Road is built atop an earthen causeway, usually only a couple feet above the surrounding land. Yes, in some spots it’ll flood in a BIG flood, but it is usually dry and driveable.
I concur with FJ’s perspective that the bundles, since they were so deteriorated along the edges, most likely had only remnants of rubber bands sticking to them and not really holding them in place. I know that contradicts what Brian Ingram has told me and others, but it seems implausible that Brian is correct in his memory.
It’s basically a “sand bar” hence, the word bar. Caterpillar Island, is an island. T-bar, is not.
Ask yourself this question: If DBC walked to Tena Bar where did he walk from?
The point is subtle but absolutely critical.
Tena Bar is on a plot of land that is completely surrounded by water for 25 miles except a 400 foot land bridge south of Tena Bar. Therefore, we have one of three likely possibilities if he WALKED to Tena Bar.
1) He landed on the “island.”
2) He landed north of Tena Bar but not on the island which means he had to swim across a river or lake.
3) He walked up from the south which entails a significant distance (round trip) and means he walked right through downtown Vancouver ransom in-hand.
I think #2 and #3 are implausible although not impossible.
I think #1 is likely.
Now if he didn’t WALK to Tena Bar he drove to Tena Bar. What other choice is there? And, if he drove to Tena Bar, why the hell would he bury the money? Why not just drive out of the area with the cash in the trunk? Why open yourself up to the inherent risks associated with burying the money and later retrieving it?
That is why I believe that Cooper did not DRIVE to Tena Bar. Moreover, that the only reason to bury the money is if he was still in the act of getting away. In other words, he landed near Tena Bar on the “island.”
You have created a circular argument..
The money arrived by Cooper burying it
therefore, he must have landed there… and the flightpath is wrong.. the Air Force SAGE was wrong, ATC was wrong, Boeing was wrong…
This is not critical thinking.. your completely fabricated premise is false. The money could have arrived without Cooper burying it.
You have started at the conclusion and worked backwards to make things fit.
Johnnie Greene-Eric Ulis distorts the facts. Even a newbie can see that. People purchase books on the case but not as much on specific suspects. Do you believe everything that Eric Ulis says or is it that you just dislike Mr. Blevins and the person from Iowa?
The money at T-Bar was buried or it wasn’t. IF IT WAS BURIED, then it is plausible that DBC landed nearby. That is a worthy hypothesis, and needs to be more closely examined.
Along those lines, I am waiting for Eric is organize a Bachelor Island search – in the meantime, I am going to the Battleground area next week to scratch an itch. I want to nose around the Hochinson area, which is the new LZ, based upon the revised FBI LZ crafted in the 1975 302s.
The only person I’ve heard to explore this area is Sluggo, and I’ve reached out to him unsuccessfully to get any additional information. Hence, I’m gonna see for myself…. hang out in taverns, coffee shops, knock on doors, let my MN press pass flap in the breeze and see what happens…
Bachelor Island? Oh, goodie. Sounds like another camping trip with Robert Blevins. Or is it more like a mystery vacation, with Tatoo on Fantasy Island? Can the women wear loose clothing, or do they have to wear thongs and be barefooted to please all of the macho men searching for DBC?
Loose-fitting clothing AND thongs both get me excited. However, I am most attracted to meaningful conversations. Just saying.
Wanna come along, Marla? Always room for one more.
I’m thinking, and weighing out the alternatives, Bruce. I’ll let you know after I watch a few more episodes of Survivor.
FLYJACK:
Do the air route trackings by the US Air Force and ARTCC align, or do they show variations for Flight 305? [FBI doc # SE 164-81].
Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss the letters received by newspapers claiming to be from DB Cooper.
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Eric, not enough depth in your analysis this time. Speaking of confirmation bias, did you gloss over the letters because they don’t fit a timeline of your own suspect, Sheridan Peterson?
The letters don’t fit DB Cooper. This has nothing to do with Sheridan Peterson.
It appears that there are those who think my opinion has only to do with some Sheridan Peterson agenda. For example, my thoughts about the flight path. Truth be told, I don’t need to advocate for any particular flight path. Sheridan could have just as easily been DBC, landed in the FBI drop zone, and traveled to Tena Bar for some unknown reason.
My opinion, and I think the opinion of the FBI, is that the letters area bogus. Simple as that.
Did you view the video of the FBI’s attempt to decipher the coded letter from Playboy cutouts?
There is no way to know if all the letters are bogus. Making that claim is silly.
The two that I have focussed on are the Vancouver letter to the Province Newspaper and the Toronto YMCA USPA application.. I think they were written by the same person.
The handwriting is consistent with Hahneman’s, but generally handwriting comparison are not that reliable.. all we can say is consistent.
FLY: the FBI spent a lot of time analyzing the Playboy letter. WHY?
for the articles…
might be a clue to his identity..
There is no way to to know if any were written by Cooper or not. Claiming to know they are all bogus is unfounded. It is speculation.
More to the point, who is Al Di, the guy who decoded that letter???
Excellent point, Bruce. Apparently, Eric Ulis didn’t do enough homework on the letters. He is usually pretty good. Those letters mean something and shouldn’t be dismissed so quickly. Thanks FLY.
Bruce, I think I found him.. I’ll email you the contact info.
Why so cryptic, Fly? Shall we make your suggestion public and talk about it?
[Curtis Eng]
That is the prevailing thought on Al Di. Galen is convinced that Al Di is Curtis Eng.
The bigger question about Al Di is WHY he did what he did. Also, why did he exchange 60 emails with Galen Cook, and then stop abruptly in 2011?
Loren Coleman… posted in 2011 then removed it.. the interweb never forgets.
https://web.archive.org/web/20111105172254/http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2011/08/d-b-decoded.html
signed AL Di… from the link in the video.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tS_XP7GekGlB8idOZUK3ffGgcdUyfe3ipR5hFm0p3vY/edit?hl=en_US
It was Loren Coleman that deciphered the Playboy letter. It is extreme in its detail,, I’d look at Loren Coleman as possibly the original Playboy letter writer and hoaxer. He who wrote the original would be able to decipher it and likely did.
Cook told me that Eng was communicating with him as two separate persons….Curtis Eng AND Al Di. Apparently, Cook caught on to the ruse by Eng, but played him a bit longer, then finally outed Al Di. That was the end of Cook’s communications with Eng and Al Di. And the riddle of the Playboy letters ended too.
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The funky “P” was rolled out starting as the new retail store logo Nov 24 1963,,, the chance of that funky “P” getting incorporated onto the tie and sold in 1963 is virtually nil… your 1963 timeframe is debunked.
The time frame for the tie was 1964-65.. not 1963.
Evidence clearly indicates Cooper had aviation knowledge that doesn’t mean he had to have worked for Boeing.
If he couldn’t get the airtairs open it wasn’t a jail cell… at the time many hijackers were successful by going to Cuba, though I think it is self evident that Cooper was confident the airstairs could be opened in flight.
First of all, the updated JC Penney logo was fully implemented by November 1963. This wasn’t done overnight. Items were produced before that date with the updated logo in preparation for the November ’63 launch date. In fact, some items had already rolled out with the new logo.
Second, the patent for the new “snapper” contraption was filed on December 7, 1964. Remington did not manufacture the tie in 1965 utilizing the old snapper contraption. The tie was manufactured in 1963 or 1964.
repeat..
The patent filing date does not = sale date.
Hence, the tie sale date = 1964-65. get it.
The logo was first introduced for retail stores Nov 24, 1963.
Where is your proof that the new logo was used before that on the tie or any items.
FLY, you really need to learn how to think critically as opposed to just being a naysayer. You and Georger, Group 4 residents.
I am breaking a cardinal rule here by even responding to your comment. I frankly don’t like even acknowledging your type.
That said, the reason I say the tie was “manufactured” in 1963 or 1964 is for two reasons:
1) That’s when it was “manufactured.”
2) We cannot definitively determine when it was “sold.” Apparently you can?
After all, the FBI visited JC Penney stores after the skyjacking, which was November 24, 1971, and learned that the store in Portland hadn’t carried the tie for about one year. The Vegas store said about three years.
What this means is that it is theoretically possible that Cooper purchased the tie at JC Penney in Portland as late as November 1970, or thereabouts, even though it was “manufactured” 6 years earlier.
Now if you can pin down a “sold” date I’m sure we’d all be very interested to see that.
Cheers!
Did yous gardumate from Kinderschool? Ninny Nanny noo noo?
Eric,,
you are throwing red herrings…
The new “P” logo was introduced first on signage Nov 24 1963…
Do you think the tie was manufactured in Dec 63 and sold.. extremely unlikely. they were made in batches and had to be shipped and stocked etc..
You claim they could be in stock until 1970 but produced and sold before the logo rollout.. yikes.
We aren’t discussing was is theoretical or possible. Anything is possible, maybe Elvis was Cooper, but what is likely given the facts.
The tie was most certainly sold 64-65… Not 1963. Not 1970.
I hate liars, but I hate hypocrites who ignore facts and employ poor reason and logic more.. you are both. You attacked me personally from a position of absolute ignorance,, big mistake.
You just ignore valid and factually based challenges.
Keep pushing your highly speculative and factually void narrative, you are wasting your time on the wrong guy.
TBAR bills…
Tom Kaye examined 3 bills and concluded the holes were from bacteria and not insects. Tom is mostly correct, there is bacteria damage and no post deposit insect damage. However, he didn’t look at all the bills and insect damage would have given the bacteria a path to the interior of the packets. There does appear to be insect damage to the bills.
I searched for buried money images and none match the TBAR money, it does match insect damage plus buried.
For there to be insect damage you’d need to find matching holes on bills in the same packet, I have done that.
This gif fades from one bill to another and the holes match, the bills were probably not next to each other but from the same packet. Bacteria would not do this,, insect boring would. That suggests the money was stored someplace before deposited on TBAR, a dwelling perhaps. The damage resembles small termites or silverfish.
My working theory is the money was hidden/stored in a “dwelling” became insect damaged and now an unusable liability it was discarded around 1978 ish ending up on TBAR. Somebody had control of the TBAR money for some time after NORJAK..
Cooper stashed the money himself, discarded later.
Cooper gave the money to somebody, discarded later
Cooper lost the money and it was found by somebody who didn’t report it, discarded later.
This is a fade between two different bills. Indicates bore holes through a packet.
Gif should work if opened in browser.
more Flyjack Trikery!
Fly says: Tom Kaye examined 3 bills … he didn’t look at all the bills. Flyjack looked at NONE OFTHE BILLS – laughing! Tom Kaye “examined” his bills in a lab. Flyjack?
Flyjack’s trickery is actually pretty funny, at Kinderschool. Johnny and Katty think that camels are sheep, when the lights go off. They think that fish sing. And Mom & Dad go off to a hotel to play marbles. But, they have to stop at grandpa and grandma’s place to get the marbles before they go to the hotel. Johnny and Katty got their story from guess where ……. Ulis, the Elvis Impersonator! No wonder the world is all fucked up.
Georger (TTM) is just jealous, he didn’t figure it out….
Fact is the bore holes line up… through the packet. That indicates insect boring damage.
That is significant. I would say a very very big deal. It suggests the TBAR money was stored someplace by somebody for some period of time after NORJAK…
Anybody can go find those bill images and replicate the gif image.
You can’t find this with a few random bills, even in a lab.
Fantastic work, FLYJACK. Genius level deductions.
George r, at work on the Cooper file..
Lol!!!😂 Georger only wishes he was as handsome, as tall, as young, and has as much hair as the guy in the video. Otherwise, you nailed him, FLYJACK. 😉
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The Placard was not confirmed from Norjak, in fact the FBI walked back the Cowlitz Sheriff statements. It does not match the 727 internal ones. Eric ignores the evidence. It is possible, but unlikely.
The wind is still a problem for Eric, they used a proxy.. Portland and Salem averaged over the 8-9PM hour. Winds closer to the LZ around 8PM were from the ESE to S. The winds at the LZ were a guess, NOT A FACT. The winds were shifting from ESE to SW… Again, Eric ignores the evidence. Ironic, Eric rejects the FBI flight path backed by multiple sources but accepts the wind by proxy.
Finally, Eric repeats the classic error of logic.. not finding something in the LZ is not evidence that it is the wrong LZ. The FBI LZ is an assumption based on their inputs, IMO, it is close, if anything it may be spun around slightly based on a ESE to S wind.
Heads up…
FBI File #37 is up
https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/d.b.-cooper-part-37-of-37/view
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Kaye found silver nitrate on the bills and assumed it was used for fingerprinting only because an FBI agent said it was in general use, the FBI never admitted that, it is possible the SN was applied to mark the bills prior to being given to Cooper. Research shows that SN is not typically used on “wet” paper and rare in 1980.
Kaye said around 14 partial DNA profiles.. Carr admitted in an interview that he knows nothing about DNA..
Mitochondrial DNA match is typically 10-20% of the population.
Geroger is being Georger again, most here know this routine.. he is a liar.
Georger wrote..
“Actually this is all OLD NEWS. Fkyjack started this nonsense clear back in 2010. His concession just yesterday that he is willing to replace TERMITES with INSECTS … has only taken 9 years.”
I wasn’t involved in the Cooper case in 2010 and I have stated termites or silverfish aka insects.
The fact is, those bore holes go through the TBAR money packets and that is consistent with insects not bacteria, either silverfish or a small termite species.. and that means the TBAR money was stored somewhere by somebody after NORJAK.. that undermines many theories and some people can’t handle that.
Georger’s ego can’t handle the facts, so he manufacturers a character assassination..
He had is decade plus run in the Cooper case and got nothing.. His only benefit was his connections. He isn’t as bright as people think.
Dan Cooper comic research….
I dug deep into the Dan Cooper comics and found some amazing things…
Albert Weinberg was in Seattle and Florida in the mid 1960’s. He was researching stories for his comics.. his method was to draw from reality so he took many many pictures..
He did write a comic based around Seattle, not the well known L’AFFAIRE MINOS but it was OBJECTIF JUMBO that took place all around Seattle. There are many Seattle images in this comic.
I also found an airplane that matched a real plane which belonged to an American pilot on the east coast. That plane was kept in Europe. I investigated that pilot and his circle for any possible connection to NORJAK but didn’t find anything.
One idea was that the hijacker may have met Albert Weinberg while he was in the US researching his comic, I didn’t find anything there.
But the most interesting thing I found was an image in another Dan Cooper comic of Lake Tipsoo in Wa State.. Albert Weinberg was there, took a photo and used it in one of his comics. Notice it matches Bruce’s Mountain News banner…. of Mt Rainier.
Finally, I discovered that the Dan Cooper comics were published in many languages including Spanish.
There was a Mexican/Spanish publication of the Dan Cooper comic.. Considering there was a legitimate hijacker Spanish/Mexico connection this may be significant.
Conclusion, was the hijacker inspired by the Dan Cooper comic,, NO.. was he aware of them… maybe?
Last two Comic page images are the Mexican/Spanish Dan Cooper comic edition from 1967..
The last image is Lake Tipsoo Wa… from another Dan Cooper comic.
Smile
Takeaways,, Bruce can actually “remote view”… and the Dan Cooper comics were published for Mexico in Spanish.. matching Cooper Latin/Mexico profile.. a “potential” exposure.
Very interesting article. I enjoy all this stuff. Perhaps I need to add some lyrics to my song about SAGE.
For you DB Cooper aficionados, you might appreciate this song about DB Cooper and his whereabouts… Enjoy!!!
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There is evidence that the SN was not from fingerprinting. It is possible, but it could have been from marking/spraying the money bundles with a SN solution prior to giving them to Cooper.
Some darkened bills are inconsistent with SN fingerprinting…. partial/random staining..
It doesn’t really make sense that the FBI would randomly use SN on packet internal bills, perhaps outer bills, but that isn’t the case, the staining is random. I can’t find noted outer bills with stains but still looking.
Not convinced all/or any of the staining is from SN fingerprinting..
Partial,, not from SN fingerprinting..
You have presented no facts Georger,,, as a proven liar, your opinion is worth less than zero.
But, if you have proof that all the staining was from SN fingerprinting in 1980, then show us the super secret documents that you have only seen.. and explain the partial stained bill… it is possible. I just don’t trust you with your history of fabricating evidence.
To Bruce Smith: you are running an Anarchist’s Forum for idiots?
I am not Georger. Georger stopped posting in all Cooper sites yesterday.
Sure, Ray.
Evidence, it was the crew that initiated lowered stairs on takeoff during negotiations to get Tina off the plane so they could attempt an escape… Cooper did not initially demand airstairs down on takeoff..
transcript..
305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GlRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY WITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF
MSP FLT OPNS DONT KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN INTMTDE POSN
305 R WIL TALK TO HIM AGAIN
No, Rat specifically says when Tina went down the stairs to get the money or chutes they could of escaped through the from of the cockpit. stairs, the side one’s that pulled up to the plane. he said by the time he thought of it she was back on the plane…he didn’t want to leave without her…he didn’t have enough time to act. I believe he talks about it in a video..
It clearly states several times in the transcripts about arguing with him about wanting them down.
I know,, he was either wrong or being deceptive to cover the fact that they had planned an escape.
He wanted them down and they were trying to talk him into partially down. after they agreed to lower them after takeoff they were worried about Tina being sucked out of the back. it’s two different subjects. that was at 6:21. at 6:44 they said “he still insistent with stairs”…the transcripts show a discussion in between the time stamps. not each time they key the mic. then Cooper agree’s to allow Tina to operate them once in the air.
Cooper’s original demand was airstairs lowered by Tina in flight..
The context was the two stews getting off, then they wanted Tina off. How, if Cooper wanted her to lower airstairs,,, suggest lowered on takeoff. They wanted to try an escape…
Airstairs down on takeoff first suggested by crew.
305 WE HAVE INSTRCINS FROM THE INDVDL WANTS NRI GG TO MEXICO CITY 2 TO FLY WITH GEAR DOWN ND FLAPS AT 15 EGDEG
AFTR UNDERWAY ALL LITHGHTS TO BE TURND OUT IN ACFT CANNOT LAND IN US FOR FUEL OR OTHER REASON NO CREW MEMBER ISTO GO AFT OF F C CURTAIN
MSP FLT OPNS R EVEN IF FULL U CANNOT LAND IN MEXICO CITY
305 R HNQVEXXX AFT PSGR LOADING DOOR WILL BE OPEN AND REMAN IN THAT POSN AND AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTR TKOFF
MSP FLT OPNS THE DRAG WIL BE SUCH THAT U CANNOT MAKE MEXICAN BORDER EVEN WITH AFT STAIRS UP
305 R WIL HAVE TO NEGOTIATE WITH HIM AD WIL HAVE TO STOP FOR FUEL GIRLS NOT OFF YET SR GIRL STATION ON AFT SIDE OF COCKPIT IN HER ST REMAINING SEATED AND 2ND GIRL IN FWD R ST IN C SXN TOLD NOT TO GET UP 3RD GIRL IS INTERMEDIARLY AND SITTING IXXXX WITH THE INDIVIDUAL
MSP FLT OPNS JUST CANNOT MAKE IT WITH THE AFT STAIRS XTENDED
305 R
MSP FLT OPNS JUST CANNOT MAKE IT WITH THE FLAPS DOWN GUESS CAN GO ONLY TWO TO R AND A HALF HOURS ATXXX AS FAR AS CAN GO THAT WOULD BE FRISCO UNDER THAT DRAG CONTN
305 WILL TALK TO HIM AGAIN
where does it say that? MSP saying the samething. not advisable to takeoff with stairs down. I don’t see anywhere the crew starts this demand. I see them going back and forth even considering lower them partially.
Rats own words on escape…
Added, it had not yet occurred to them that they could of pinpointed their exact location at the time the oscillation was felt and admitted that the crew had emergency exit’s from the pilot’s compartment via the windshields and a rope ladder. conceivably, following the departure of the passengers and during one the periods that hostess MUCKLOW was off the plane obtaining the parachutes, the remainder of the crew could of vacated the aircraft leaving the hijacker on board alone.
Three-toed Mary: Could you grow a couple…. (toes), then go over to the DZ and find out if Blevins uses Noxirub in his sleeping bag while on his famous campouts with other men. Get back to us here at Bruce’s site and give us an update ASAP.
psst…..Gayla is upset because she thinks Robert is cheating again and she needs your excellent sleuthing services.
What makes you think Three-toad Mary (GEORGER) could investigate anything? He’s never even gotten out of his detective recliner chair in Iowa. Robert 99 thinks the Iowa dick is already coming down with Alzheimers and has nowhere to go or nothing left to do, so he shows up at the Mountain News to learn more about the case. When one dementia stricken sleuth tells another to pound sand, it’s time to check into the Big Ward and get ready for the lock-down unit. Two old dufus’ eating together with bibs and lots of drool, endlessly watching old re-runs of Cooper-bites starring Eric Ulis. And dreaming of the old Cooper Days in which they fantasized relevancy.
……..and don’t forget the Depends……LOL.
No doubt. Plenty of poop in the Georger stories. If any more of these old geezers keep weighing in on Cooper, its going to start looking like a movie plot for rickety old farts who throw their walkers at each other and need the nurses to wipe yesterday’js oatmeal off of their drool-stained pajamas.
Shutter,
The transcript is crystal clear,, Cooper’s initial demand was stairs lowered in flight. The crew first brought up the idea of lowering for takeoff. We know from evidence elsewhere and in the transcripts that the crew was told and believed that Cooper may jump with Tina and leave the bomb to blow up the plane. The crew had a plan to escape, but they couldn’t go with Tina left on board. They tried to get her off so they first suggested lowering the stairs partially for takeoff so Tina would be let go. I think Cooper finally accepted but didn’t allow Tina to leave, now they had to convince Cooper they couldn’t takeoff with airstairs down which they had initiated.
transcript..
305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GlRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY WITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF
MSP FLT OPNS DONT KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN INTMTDE POSN
305 R WIL TALK TO HIM AGAIN
“The hijacker then informed TINA MUCKLOW to tell the other stewardesses and crew to remain on board. At this point, Mrs HANCOCK sated that the pilots of the aircraft wanted the stewardesses to leave the plane. Once the stewardesses had successfully left the aircraft, Mrs. HANCOCK stated that the pilots had planned to get off the plane by jumping out through the cockpit. “
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Too much,, Eric is shopping documentaries.. I suggest you change it to a Fiction/Fantasy film to be accurate.. probably better money there.
In order to get people off the plane to leave Cooper alone on the plane would be the side door where the portable stairs were pulled up to the plane. they were in place. why have another set of stairs to worry about to escape from. she left the plane several times. it makes no sense to say they need to lower the rear stairs to put the plan in motion other than getting Tina away from Cooper. the further away. the better.
The pilots have to worry about the crew. they are in charge. yes, they were worried they might take Tina. the suggestion to lower the stairs partially was to stop him from being “insistent” on having them down and locked. IF, they would of thought of it in time. they could of had the windows open and the ladder ready. once Tina left the plane. they could rush Cooper or deal with him how they wish. (the FBI)
Georger in old man diapers at a dementia care facility watching videos of Eric Eulis and still fighting over Cooper truths? Too funny!
Shutter,
You have misread it. The transcript is clear.
2 stews were gone, Pilots had an escape plan..
Cooper wanted Tina to manipulate the stairs… Pilots asked him to lower partially on takeoff..
nothing else to add..
Silver Nitrate was used at the lab and not prior to Cooper getting the money…read about SN below. the last part will explain it very well.
About silver nitrate
Silver nitrate (AgNO3) reacts with the chlorides in skin secretions to form silver chloride, which turns gray when exposed to UV light. Developed prints must be photographed immediately because the reaction will eventually (and permanently) fill the background. Silver nitrate is useful on paper, cardboard, plastics, and unvarnished, light-colored woods. It is not useful on items that have been exposed to water.
I have read all the same stuff on SN..
Tom’s argument makes sense..
but he missed two things.
Irregular/inconsistent Staining on many other bills doesn’t match SN fingerprinting and blackened/darkened bills were reported prior to the bills in FBI possession.
The FBI never recorded using SN.
Something else is going on here.
It’s hard to say how stains got on some bills and not the others. I’m not talking about the SN. some could of been subject to longer exposure to water while buried. Bryan might of been talking about darkness in the bills due to them being wet. I don’t see much of a difference between any of them while they were on the table prior to going to the lab. the bills need to be tested vs saying what any type of blemish appears on them. same for buried money. doubtful it would look the same buried in dirt vs buried in the sand. different insects, bacteria etc. depending on the time on the beach they were exposed to water a lot. a whole lot of water. can’t say that with money buried in dirt in most cases.
I just don’t see them attempting this prior to getting on the plane. it was 1971. CSI was light years away. my guess was they were secure enough with the serial numbers.
Are any of the black/grey bills matching serial numbers to those seen on the table? this could help answer if they tested them prior to separating the stacks or can any numbers be seen?
I id’d 8 of the bills from the table image.. I couldn’t match them with later images, but still looking.
L53307222A
L20452751A
H27412938A
J02442844A
L30706882B
L20848242A
I02442844A
L35399523B
I did find a small darkened/stained frag that would never be fingerprinted.
The staining may be from different sources?? but what??
Some bills are perfect, some very dark, some partial.. some staining was not from fingerprinting.
TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF
The aft entry door open at all times and that the aft stairs be extended after takeoff. later specified that the stairs must be fully extended before take-off. he was told the plane could not rotate with them down (takeoff) when the HJ was advised of this. he asked if they could be partially extended. during this period they could of said they were trying to get him to allow them to partially extend.
we don’t have the full story just by the transcripts. lots was said in between with “the company” as I mentioned before. Rat has a video were he explains about the same as he did in his testimony given that evening about going out the window. he was very clear that he didn’t want to leave Tina on the plane. it was a missed opportunity. the video is in a PDF. he’s wearing a yellow sweater. he was speaking at some event.
yes,, my point is Cooper’s initial demand was Tina lower the airstairs in flight.. The crew first suggested open for takeoff to make her unnecessary and get her off so they could escape. Cooper accepted the airstairs down but wanted Tina to remain. Now, they had to convince him they couldn’t takeoff with airstairs open which they had initiated.
Takeaway is, Cooper did not initially demand airstairs down on takeoff and the crew initiated it.
Everybody keeps claiming Cooper demanded airstairs down on takeoff, he didn’t. If he did initiate that would indicate he wanted to jump ASAP. He did not initiate it.
For example, Larry Carr assumed he wanted to jump ASAP because he demanded airstairs down on takeoff,, that isn’t true. It was initiated by the pilots.
I always assumed he wanted to jump asap because I thought he initiated the airstairs down on takeoff, that isn’t true.
Found the video. he even tells Scotty he would not follow his direction if he was told to go out the window. he refused to leave Tina on the plane. no plan was in place to get the stairs down so Tina could escape with the crew.
You still misunderstand it,
The stairs down on take off suggestion from the crew wasn’t for escape by Tina or the crew,,, it was to make Tina unnecessary to lower the stairs in flight and remain on the plane. That would encourage Cooper to allow her to leave before takeoff. If she was allowed to to leave the crew had a plan to escape.
(P): AL, I kind of figured someway to get her out, I’d kind of like to get her out we’re ready to go.
(GC): And you got that deal from Boeing on how to get out of there?
(P): Yeh we got that.
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The irony, Eric is doing exactly what he claims other’s are..
Eric doesn’t address the evidence but attacks the messenger (ME), he is trying to push his extremely speculative narrative..
Eric goes beyond ignoring facts contrary to his narrative, he tries to discredit the messenger.
Fact,
the FBI walked back the Cowlitz Sheriff claim that the placard came for NORJAK, the placard is inconsistent with 727 internal emergency airstair placards. There is no confirmation the placard came from NORJAK, NONE. This was stated after the FBI investigation.
The wind…
Eric ignores the source for the wind data… and claims it is a fact. It was a guess, a proxy, they used the wind data averaged over an hour 8-9PM from Salem and Portland.. far from the placard and the LZ area. In fact, wind data 7-8PM had the wind ESE to S closer to the Placard and LZ.
The wind was shifting, it was not a known fact. This is clearly stated in the FBI files.
IT WAS AN ESTIMATE,,, NOT A FACT. the FBI SAYS SO..
The chutes,
There weren’t six chutes delivered to Cooper.
FACT.. According to the packing card, the back chute returned to Hayden does not match the description/SN found on the back chute left by Cooper. That means at some point there must have been more than 2 back chutes involved somewhere.
The airstairs,, Eric can’t read the transcripts.. which are far more accurate than the 302 summaries he relies on to advance his bogus theory.
Cooper’s initial demand was to have stairs lowered in flight, there is no question about it.
AFT STAIRS TO BE LOWERED AFTER TAKEOFF…
The pilots were the ones that suggested lowering for takeoff as a means to convince Cooper to allow Tina to leave so they could escape.
WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTER PLANE AIRBORNE.. TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LOWER STAIRS PARTIALLY FOR TAKEOFF
Eric is being completely dishonest, he does have a Cooper docufiction to sell..
Disagreements are one thing, this is self serving goal seeking.
Eric is a “Cooper Con”
Eric, more outstanding spokesmanship. But I need to ask, are you clearing all of your bites with the boss, GEORGER?
As mentioned it would be priority for them to get Tina away from Cooper no matter the cause. the stairs had nothing to do with it as a plan. Cooper could of made her stay regardless of the stairs down or not. it’s security for him to keep her. once they realized she was in it to the end. they became concerned about her being around the stairs open. I do see your point but it was Cooper being insistent about the stairs. Tina was in the background during that period while they went back and forth with him.
The crew initiated the idea of stairs open on takeoff to give a reason to let Tina go.. so they could escape. He seemed to accept it but didn’t let Tina go, so they had to convince him the plane couldn’t take off with airstairs down.
That is significant. Why, If Cooper had initiated that indicates he wanted to jump ASAP, but if the crew initiated it doesn’t.
Everybody thinks Cooper initiated stairs down on takeoff and everybody thinks Cooper wanted to jump ASAP. He didn’t.
Why is this important… it goes to Cooper’s LZ,, was it pre-planned, delayed or random??
That is up for debate as well. the transcripts also say Cooper requested the stairs partially opened. again with Tina and the escape. did you watch the video? the stairs had nothing to do with any escape. Scott brought it up. they were discussing going out the window. Tina was outside at that time. Rat didn’t want to go out the window if Tina remained on the plane. the only escape plan they discussed was the pilots escaping. they never had time to get to Tina for the plan to work with removing all involved except Cooper. demands changing in a hostage situation is not out of the norm. plans will change. they have to adapt sometimes.
Telling whether or not Cooper meant to jumped where he did can only be speculation. same for wanting to jump early. since he didn’t give any indication other than a destination it doesn’t tell a whole lot.
He didn’t fly the plane from the back as McCoy did. he timed everything asked for constant updates. that’s how it’s done. Cooper did nothing. he didn’t even seem to care how they got there. just fly south. make the flight plan in the air. it appears he didn’t care where he landed.
Rat doesn’t say anything in reference to any plan to get them all off the plane. it appears that Scott brought up the idea for the 3 in front to get out. Anderson, Scott and Rat. and Rat said he would go against a direct order to leave the plane without Tina. since she was already outside it appears that this was after the discussion of the stairs or they would of told Tina while on the interphone of the plan. all it appears to have been was an idea by Scott. Rat would of said that’s why we were trying to get the stairs down so we could get Tina up front to escape. he says nothing like that. Cooper was not about to allow everyone out of his site while on the ground for any long period of time. the discussion took place while the passengers were leaving and Tina was outside for the last pickup. that’s why he says in his statement it was a missed opportunity.
You still miss the point…
The stairs were not part of an escape plan, the pilots initiated the idea to get Cooper to allow Tina to leave.. since he wanted her lower them in flight if they could be lowered without her then she may be able to leave the plane. They would escape out the cockpit.
You need to follow this, when Tina was outside the other 2 stews were still on the plane.
The two stews left the plane. Cooper wanted Tina to lower the stairs in flight the the crew tried to convince him to let them lower for takeoff.. it is absolutely clear that the crew initiated lowering stairs for takeoff. It is also clear that the crew had an escape plan that required them to get Tina off the plane.
The crew recommending stairs part open on takeoff had nothing do to with using them to escape.
Best term yet, heard about you Cooperites..
“The Cooper Mafia.” In otherwords, all if you regular posters at these Cooper sites are “made.” Watcha ya step….
That’s how you view it…Ratazcak states differently. he was there? why would he tell a story about escape and not imply the same as you view it? listen to the video. he states the stews got off during her final trip off the plane. he refused to leave her on the plane. this implies it didn’t surround getting everyone off the plane. only the pilots. if they had a plan for getting her as well he wouldn’t of made the statement of not following a direct order.
I’m reading where they want to get Tina out of the back. no plan is suggested. they state Cooper doesn’t want anyone past the curtain. they ask about maps etc. then the (P) pilot, states they are in a rut. well, he seems to want those stairs down. we kind of convinced him we can’t take-off with them in ground position. they tell the crew you can’t do that. he wants the rear down for some reason. but then he says they can lower them in flight.
I would say that in between that conversation they tried to suggest lowering them partially. they are trying to redirect him from insisting they be down prior to take-off.
The pilots did not start this conversation about the stairs. they were trying to get Tina away from him. that’s obvious. the stairs had nothing to do with any diversion to do so. it’s two different events. Cooper agreed to allow the stairs to be lowered in flight. I didn’t mean to imply using the back stairs to escape. I’m saying the crew never started the comment of taking off with them down. Cooper did.
Ratazak’s vague inference is incorrect,, according to the transcript and witness statements the 2 stews left well after Tina made her last trip.
That “crew” passage you quoted happened much later..
The first mention of stairs down on takeoff came from the crew suggesting it… right after they reiterate Cooper’s initial demand for stairs to be lowered in flight.
Ted,… Yougotaproblemwiddat?
all good, Uncle Brucie…..all good.
Ah, where’s me cigar….
We’ll be down at Tena’ Bar one day, smoking a big fat stogie and counting the moolah.
Shutter keeps jumping back and forth in the sequence of events..
The best way to see this is to open the Crew/GC file and the Crew/FLIGHT OPS file and go through them simultaneously side by side in sequence..
It is clear, Cooper’s initial demand was stairs lowered in flight and the crew initiated stairs down on takeoff.
305 WE HAVE INSTRCINS FROM THE INDVDL WANTS NRI GG TO MEXICO CITY 2 TO FLY WITH GEAR DOWN ND FLAPS AT 15 EGDEG
AFTR UNDERWAY ALL LITHGHTS TO BE TURND OUT IN ACFT CANNOT LAND IN US FOR FUEL OR OTHER REASON NO CREW MEMBER ISTO GO AFT OF F C CURTAIN
MSP FLT OPNS R EVEN IF FULL U CANNOT LAND IN MEXICO CITY
305 R HNQVEXXX AFT PSGR LOADING DOOR WILL BE OPEN AND REMAN IN THAT POSN AND AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTR TKOFF
next mention of stairs..
305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GlRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY WITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF
MSP FLT OPNS DONT KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN INTMTDE POSN
1. All three stews still on board
2. STILL wants Tina to manipulate stairs after takeoff
3. (Looks like) tried to tell him how to operate stairs to lowered after takeoff (himself)
4. Crew tries to get him to let them lower partially for takeoff
Cooper did not understand how the ventral airstairs worked. He had aviation experience but was not a 727 “expert”. Cooper believed the cockpit had some control over the stairs that is why he wanted Tina to remain.
It is clear, Cooper’s initial demand was stairs lowered in flight and the crew initiated stairs down on takeoff.
So, where it says Cooper later changed to wanting the stairs down prior to take-off (insisting) should read the flight crew insisted the stairs down before take-off?
Miss Mucklow forwarded this information to the cockpit and the hijacker also indicated that he wanted the take-off made with the rear door open and the stairs extended for takeoff.
The CREW, through miss Mucklow, informed the hijacker that takeoff in that aircraft with the door open and the stairs extended would be an impossibility. it was finally agreed that the door closed, stairs retracted and miss Mucklow would stay on board to lower the stairs after the aircraft was airborne.
“finally agreed” he was being stubborn about the stairs and they negotiated with him. I don’t see where this indicates getting Tina away from Cooper. it’s negotiation 101. I do understand they wanted her away or off the plane. this wasn’t part of that plan.
Rataczak has been consistent 3 times about the pilots escaping without Tina. once on the tapes, second time is in his testimony and the third is years later in a video.
Rataczak’s comments are completely irrelevant here. They don’t conflict..
The pilots first suggested stairs lowered on takeoff in an attempt to negotiate the release of Tina.. Cooper still didn’t allow Tina to leave..
Later,, the pilots had to convince Cooper not to lower for takeoff.. and Tina would show Cooper how to operate the stairs in flight.
Cooper’s initial demand was lowered in flight. Yes or NO
If NO, read the transcript.
If YES, when did he change.. after the pilots suggestion.
Simple stuff..
Rataczak is very relevant. he would of mentioned this plan you claim. it surrounds escape and includes why he wouldn’t do it. Cooper changed his demand. this is nothing new with criminals or a hostage situation. he changed several things not in the original demand. that’s to get the ball rolling anyway. nothing says he had to stick to just what he first said?
what does this mean?
we are in a rut. he seems to want the stairs down..(radio transcript tape)
trying to get him to allow us to lower partially. (radio transcript)
seems to be insistent with the stairs (radio transcript)
wants girl to initiate stairs after takeoff (radio transcripts)
this is a time period between 6:44 and 6:59
the hijacker also indicated that he wanted the take-off made with the rear door open and the stairs extended for takeoff. (testimony)
7:22 he agreed to allow the stair in the full upright position on take-off. this conflicts with you claiming the crew wanted them down. (radio transcript)
what I see is Cooper being concerned whether or not he would be able to open the stairs. he changed his demand to extended prior to take-off and they negotiated with him bending a little by offering to extend partially. he had no intentions of releasing Tina so he changed again to having her do it for him.
RE: Rataczak, no idea what you are trying to claim..
He didn’t mention something so it didn’t happen even though it is in the transcripts…
We are in agreement that Cooper initially asked for airstairs down,, YES..
Then when did he change it..
After the pilots suggested it, as the transcripts show.
That its the point, Cooper didn’t initiate airstairs down on takeoff..
The first mention was from the pilots right after they claim Cooper wants airstairs lowered on takeoff, it is absolutely clear.
The crew didn’t want the stairs down, they were using the suggestion to try and get Cooper to let Tina off the plane.
You still have the sequence of events mixed up..
The “we are in a rut” stuff came much later.. put everything in order.
ahh,
meant “lowered in flight”
not
The first mention was from the pilots right after they claim Cooper wants airstairs “lowered on takeoff”, it is absolutely clear.
here,,
305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GlRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY WITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF
The crew didn’t want the stairs down, they were using the suggestion to try and get Cooper to let Tina off the plane.
It’s how you interpret the actions. that’s why I said Ratazcak would of mentioned this in his explanation of escape. the transcripts would suggest this as well. he would of said while disagreeing with Scott that they tried to lower the stairs to get Tina away from Cooper. the crew would of said in a transmission what they were intending to do. instead I read “he wants what” or he seems insistent about the stairs being down” etc. even with the transcripts we are only getting bits of the story. might as well say they were stalling with the fuel to try and get Tina off the plane…
I said they didn’t want stairs down on takeoff,, it was a suggestion to convince Cooper Tina wasn’t needed so she could be let go.. if Tina was off then they had the opportunity to escape.
Ratazcak is irrelevant, not mentioning something does mean it didn’t happen. That is same as Eric’s argument, they didn’t find anything on the flight path so the flight path was wrong..
If you don’t have the sequence right, you lose the context and when you lose the context you’ve lost the plot..
You are suggesting without evidence that Cooper changed his stair demand after this transmission started and before it ended. All the stuff you keep quoting happened much later. This was the first mention of stairs down on takeoff and came from the crew.
305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GlRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY WITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF
Tina was a hostage. he’s not going to fall for a trick. no, it’s not like Eric. the conversation surrounded escape. getting away from Cooper. exactly what you imply. why wouldn’t he mention it? that was the context of his discussion. totally off base to mention Eric’s visions.
Why would this be a hidden ploy or covert? any plans they had were on the transcripts as far as we know down to the Air Marshal suggesting to slowly increase altitude to make him drowsy. they would also suggest lowering the stairs to get Tina away from Cooper. why he changed it makes as much sense as hijacking the plane. when they state he agreed to have them lowered in flight doesn’t suggest it was there idea to begin with at all. Cooper didn’t even care about the other stews. he only needed one and he was keeping her no matter what.
This was the first mention of stairs down on takeoff and came from the crew.
show me where it “clearly” states this..
I did,, many times
I am out.. this is nonsense
If I understand your argument, you are wrong, based on the evidence. The first mention of the aft stairs by anyone is at 6:21 in the Transcript. It is buried in a list of demands phoned up by Tina to the cockpit in behalf of Cooper. The cockpit relays these demands to the ground and the ground replies. The passage reads:
6:21pm t1 15 degree flaps first mentioned. Cannot land in USA for any
reason! Negotiations over flight dynamics of the plane.
305: WE HAVE INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE INDIVIDUAL. He wants Nr
305 to go to Mexico City with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees after
under way. All lights to be turned out in aircraft. Cannot land in USA for
fuel or any other reason. No crew member is to go aft of class section
curtain.
MSPFLTOPS: Roger. Even if full tanks you cannot land in Mexico City.
305: Roger. Aft passenger loading door will be open and will remain in that
position and aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff.
MSPFLTOPS: The drag will be such that you cannot make Mexico border even with
aft stairs up.
305: Roger. Will have to negotiate with him and will have to stop for fuel.
305: Girls are not off yet. Senior girl stationed on aft side of the cockpit in
her seat remaining seated. 2nd girl in forward rear seat in C section
told not to get up. 3rd girl (Mucklow) is intermediary and sitting with
the individual. Mspfltops, the plane is operable with the aft stairs extended. 305. Roger?
MSPFLTOPS: You just cannot make it with the flaps down. Our guess is you can
only go for two and a half hours, as far as can go. That would be
Frisco under that drag condition.
305: Roger. Will talk to him again.
The aft door request comes from Cooper and no one else. Aft stairs are to lowered AFTER TAKEOFF, not before. That’s what is says.
Cooper’s initial demand was stairs lowered in flight.. (AFTER TAKEOFF) I think everyone sees that. Except Eric.
The crew first mentioned “trying to get him to let us lower partially for takeoff” right after confirming Cooper wants Tina to manipulate stairs for him after airborne..
305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GlRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY WITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF
Why is this hard to grasp.. those are the facts.. I am just pointing out the facts..
We know that the crew had an escape plan and wanted all the stews off the plane. Cooper wanted Tina to manipulate the stairs in flight, the crew suggested the stairs partially open on take off… so Tina wouldn’t be needed and would be allowed to leave. Cooper didn’t allow Tina to leave but later accepted stairs down on takeoff and the crew had to convince him otherwise..
It is clear that the crew initiated stairs down on takeoff, that is significant.
The purpose of Tina was being a hostage. not just to control the stairs. you are trying to claim that’s all she was needed for and that’s not the case. she was insurance. the word negotiate is used several times. it’s parts we are not seeing. it’s written in testimony. it’s on the tape recording, not radio transmissions discussing the problem. Tina stated after returning from the cockpit she tells him they can’t be lowered before take-off. Cooper responds saying “yes they can” that’s clearly showing it was Cooper who demanded it. after they convince him they can’t takeoff with them down. he asks to have Tina do it. that wasn’t in the original demand either..
why would they come up with the idea of lowering the stairs and turn around and send Tina to the back to tell him it can’t be done? that conflicts with your claim. Cooper also says “yes they can” why would he agree with there demand and do the opposite? this is how I see it. I’m not trying to change anything.
You are conflating your speculation for Cooper’s motives with the actions of the crew..
Evidence shows Cooper’s motives were fluid probably because he didn’t understand how the rear stairs operated.
Cooper’s motives are irrelevant here.
This is really simple..
1. Cooper’ original demand was stairs lowered AFTER takeoff..
2. Crew FIRST suggested lowering partially for takeoff..
That is the point, the crew initiated stairs down on takeoff.
Everything else is speculative noise.
It could also be read as a safety issue. they were concerned about Tina operating the stairs after take-off. this could of been the reason as well. I don’t believe it had anything to do with getting her away to escape. they wanted her away from Cooper but I don’t believe this was the intent.
Let’s assume you are correct, (I don’t think so) but the fact still remains that the crew initiated stairs down on takeoff.
If Cooper originated stairs down on takeoff that indicates he wanted to jump ASAP. Larry Carr and most others believed this.. and his LZ was delayed.
If the crew initiated stairs down on takeoff then that analysis is wrong.
I have more ideas on this but it is speculation..
1) Cooper wanted the jet to takeoff with the airstairs down (i.e., “yes they can”).
2) The pilots convinced Cooper to let them takeoff with the airstairs up.
3) Cooper changed his mind and once again demanded that the jet takeoff with the airstairs down.
4) For a second time the pilots convinced Cooper to let the jet takeoff with the airstairs up.
It is all in the files.
This is why Cooper immediately started to lower the stairs upon takeoff–he wanted them down ASAP to jump in the vicinity of Seattle. This is also why Boeing’s chief test pilot stated that the jet is incapable of takingoff with the airstairs dragging upon the ground.
Elvis has left the building. You are now free to continue the mindless tortured conjecture.
Wrong… and masterfully ignorant.
read the transcripts.. they are far more accurate than the 302’s, especially timeline.
Get the context, get the sequence, get it right.
Transcript…
Cooper’s initial demand was stairs lowered AFTER takeoff..
305 WE HAVE INSTRCINS FROM THE INDVDL WANTS NRI GG TO MEXICO CITY 2 TO FLY WITH GEAR DOWN ND FLAPS AT 15 EGDEG AFTR UNDERWAY ALL LITHGHTS TO BE TURND OUT IN ACFT CANNOT LAND IN US FOR FUEL OR OTHER REASON NO CREW MEMBER ISTO GO AFT OF F C CURTAIN
MSP FLT OPNS R EVEN IF FULL U CANNOT LAND IN MEXICO CITY
305 R HNQVEXXX AFT PSGR LOADING DOOR WILL BE OPEN AND REMAN IN THAT POSN AND AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTR TKOFF
Actually, the plane can and has taken off with the stairs down. it will damage the stairs, but it can be done.
once Cooper realized they couldn’t be lowered from the cockpit might of changed his mind to have them down prior to take-off, not to jump early, just insurance they would be down.
This has been a debate between two people without insults, until now…
Georger is making some claims and has distorted some of my thoughts..
SN was found by Kaye.
SN fingerprinting was never documented by the FBI lab so agents wouldn’t know. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t used.
SN was used for marking ransom money. I never said it was used on Cooper money. That was a possible source for the SN other than fingerprinting. I can’t think of another source.
Evidence indicates some bills were darkened/blackened before the FBI got them. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t from SN. It only means that (one of) Kaye’s premise is false.
The FBI’s official narrative has always been the money was not marked. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t.
Finally, the staining on some bills is inconsistent with SN fingerprinting.
If undocumented SN fingerprinting was done it doesn’t account for all the staining OR the SN was not from fingerprinting.
This bill is inconsistent.
This frag is inconsistent.
Looks like termite damage to me, FLYJACK.
Again, we don’t have the full story surrounding the lab. no reports have ever been published. Carr read off of a cover sheet but that’s about it. the bills were NOT black while sitting on the table. the reference by Ingram is probably darkened from being wet and covered in sand.
The top bills were not very black on the table, if you look carefully there looks like blackened/stained bills showing deeper in the packet.. look at the Getty colour image
They may have selected less stained selected bills for the demo.
I give the DropZone about another week and the plug will be pulled again. When you engage Blevs over there, there are never any arguments won or lost. The postings turn into a steady flow of dyscentary.
DZ is good, you can edit and post images.. reposted here.
Deep level discussions are tough anywhere..
Hell has frozen over,, Georger actually said something I have been noodling… Cooper may have had a “concealed” weapon… that would be info the FBI would hold back.
“I still believe there is a very high probability Cooper was armed. I dont think he was flying by the seat of his pants but had backup.”
Georger
“And I was told that he had displayed a weapon and told the crew to shut the cabin door.”
Major Gene Winchester F102 NORJAK chase pilot..
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Eric, “pressure bump” is not a term of art. Its pilot slang. The plane was not pressurized. The only differential would be the slight fluctuation between air pressure in cabin and in cockpit, like when a door is quickly opened in a house and one feels the slight change of pressure from the inside.
The FDR has a “little bob” at 8:09 so that is the lower bound time.
The rear door closing is an old theory..
I doubt Cooper would have closed the door himself, however the door may have swung partially closed… maybe it was swinging?? some planes have an “open” lock mechanism.. but I don’t see one here on this early 727..
https://my.matterport.com/show/?m=rtPb7TAsPC8
Isnt there an old saying about turning off the lights and closing the door behind? Cooper was a gentleman…
It’s not an old theory. it’s fact. the stairs retracted. not the door. that’s why they did the test to repeat what they felt. after the stair retracted, they said it was exactly like that.
I meant the rear cabin door closing potentially causing the pressure change… was floated a while ago by somebody who thought Cooper jumped later..
The interior lights wouldn’t fade the plane much. they had bright green, red and white lights on the wings and belly..if he was that worried he could close all the blinds which I believe he did so snipers couldn’t take a shot.
The rear cabin lights were turned off,,
A bit odd though, Tina still saw what Cooper was doing but they had to turn them back on in Reno to look to see if he was still there.
You mean the nose of the aircraft “bobbed” when he planked-out and caused an air flow interruption? Where do the documents indicate that? A physical alteration in nose attitude would require more than a plunge out the back.
she only seen what he was doing as she closed the curtain to go up front. he might of been worried they were taking a risk and looking.
The door should have a lock on it to keep it in place. similar to a boat, you don’t want things lose inside.
anytime you are flying you will have interruptions in a level flight. weather and turbulence will be the factors. if the auto pilot was on it would make adjustments to these faults. the pilots stated they had to trim the nose right after the pressure bump.
Looking at photos I have of the inside of 305 shows a bungee type cord with a round tab on it that holds the door in place.
Why do you guys continue to engage with Blevins at the DropZone? He’s the most obnoxious, captious SOB and POS to roam the Cooper case. That’s all he does. He lectures Bruce, Eric, etc, etc as though he has something masterful to offer. His book was a total flop and piece of BS, trying to out a child predator as the hijacker. Making up lies and spreading dirt into the case. Making up stories about someone trash talking his wife. Who cares! Stop engaging the guy. His only goal is to disrupt and discredit others. And he does it with pure malice of the heart. Watch your back, Eric Eulis.
Fantastic post, Marla. Blevins is a huge failure. These camping trips are all contrived. No one wants to camp with Blevins. However, if Eulis wants to go and meet this a$$hole, I’m game to meet Eulis at the convenience store with my F-250 ,and give Blevins the business end of my bear spray at the camp site.
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Eric, are you leading the boat tour? Can we go to shore at Tina’s Bar? This is far better than going camping. Smart move.
Yes I am leading the boat tours–June 22nd and 23rd. We will not be going ashore, that said, we’ll be within several feet of the shore. The actual money find spot is about 10 feet off shore and about five feet above the surface of the river, therefore the plan is to navigate the boat to the exact spot off shore.
This is actually going to be a lot of fun in the sun.
For those interested check out https://DBCooperBoatTour.com .
You are a clever fellow. Get the major papers in Portland and Vancouver to cover the tour. A first and potential huge tourist attraction. $$$$. I will be signing up. And bringing my camera.
The Oregonian is actually publishing an article this Thursday.
“Fantastic post, Marla. Blevins is a huge failure. These camping trips are all contrived. No one wants to camp with Blevins. However, if Eulis wants to go and meet this a$$hole, I’m game to meet Eulis at the convenience store with my F-250 ,and give Blevins the business end of my bear spray at the camp site…”
Nice folks in Cooperland. Stop letting your jealousy show. Our Cooper Campouts are not only popular, but harmless. We just sit around, hike around, talk, watch movies or shows related to the hijacking, and do BBQ and campfire. Like Eric’s boat tour, we only try to keep Cooper alive in the minds of the public, while some of you guys spend a majority of your time putting others down.
As far as ‘failure’ regarding our interactions with the media on the Cooper case, that is a matter of opinion. I’m satisfied so far with the results.
This is old stuff.. Tosaw and Gray mentioned pills…
Robert99,,
See Richard T. Tosaw’s book, “D.B. Cooper – Dead or Alive”, ISBN 0-9609016-1-2, 1984, page 31. The very last sentence at the bottom of that page reads as follows:
“Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, ‘Don’t worry, I’ve got some pills that will keep them awake.’ ”
Geoffrey Gray – Skyjack..
Once the money is on board, the passengers will be released. Then Tina will get the parachutes and meals. He also has Benzedrine pills in his pocket.
He doesn’t want the crew to get sleepy.
BTW: Hahneman also had pills and gave pills to both the stew and split one with the first officer and himself…
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Nice report, Eric. I’m signing up. Be careful of Robert Blevins. He’ll probably change the location of his camp site to Tina Bar, just to purposely interrupt your DB Cooper tour. If Blevins shows up on the beach, have all your tourists moon him.
That’s funny!
Blevins is beyond simply lying. He is so desperate to get people to ANYTHING he proposes, he will round-up a dozen street homeless in Seattle and haul them to his big camp out. Buy more hotdogs, Blevins.
Eric, please dedicate one of your “bites” to how certain antagonists in the Cooper case has steered it down the wrong road. Name names.
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Really good post, Eric. You mentioned you’ve been investigating this case for 11 years. That pre-dates most active participants by several years. During the prime DZ discussions about Cooper starting in 2007, what name did you post under at the DZ site?
I did not join engage in any of the discussion forums until about a year ago. All of my research centered around Tom Kaye’s work, Sluggo’s site, and interviews with people actually involved in the case (FBI, Fazio’s, etc.). After I settled on Sheridan Peterson as the likely culprit–and immediately preceding me issuing my report called DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson–I engaged the DBC community for the first time.
Not bad work. Ulis already has his own video gig and now a tour operation. Pretty progressive! And Blevins only has an old tent and some hotdogs to give away (although no one will show up). Lol. And Ulis even has a bada$$ suspect. Blevins has a child molestor.
https://www.oregonlive.com/history/2019/06/db-cooper-boat-tour-offers-insight-into-famous-case-during-trip-to-sandbar-where-skyjackers-money-found.html
Every one of these bytes I’ve watched ends up with the same theme. Sheridan Peterson is D.B. Cooper. I’m going to guess that this boat tour article says the same thing.
RichG, do you have a suspect you favor?
Today I like Richard Floyd McCoy. But then if any of the suspects are D.B. Cooper then why hasn’t the FBI done anything? That could mean that if a suspect has been named by someone then that suspect is not D.B. Cooper. It is possible that at the 50th anniversary the true D.B. Cooper will surface.
RichG I hope you’re right about his true identity being revealed at the 50th Anniversary. Additionally, I hope the man is still around…that would be truly remarkable and very cool indeed.
Sounds like I’m going on the boat tour with Eric next weekend. Blevins has max number of Homeless that he can haul in his Nissan truck, for the big campout. Three. And Blevins is too cheap to buy good eats. Saltines and hotdogs around the campfire listening to Blevins talk about pedophilia and DB Cooper. Count me out. I’d rather be rolling on the river with Eric listening to true stories, than listening to Blevins lies and uncontrollable farting near his campfire.
Johnnie, this can be broken down to basic parts:
.
Ulis = truthseeker
Blevins = full-time LIAR
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Very cool report, Eric. Congrats on 50th Cooper Bite. Keep em coming. You’ve got more game than Mr. Blevins, who can’t even pitch a tent. Lol… btw, this must be costing you a bundle to rent a boat and driver? Gas? Food? Maybe even develop a cult following of your own? From Tomohawk Is to Tena B. must take at least 45 minutes one way?
It really is hard to believe I’m at 50 Bites.
The $35 cost should offset all of the costs. The trip from Tomahawk Island to Tena Bar is 10 miles, the boat travels a shade over 20 MPH, so there should be no issue keeping it to 90-minutes total.
Also, the weather should be great!
Great site at DB Cooper Boat Tour dot com.
Marla/Ted/Gypsy23/Eric Ulis-all the same person or just connected to each other? Probably a mixture of both. Johnnie Greene, post some pictures of your boat ride for us, that’s if you really live there. In every post you all are either fluffing Eric Ulis or cutting down Robert Blevins and Georger. Do you have thoughts on the case outside of that?
RichG, what special insight or thoughts do you have related to this case? Is there anything about this case that you consider an overlooked aspect?
Sorry Rich. You’ve been watching too many conspiracy movies. I dont know anout the others, but I may go camping with Blevins to test out my new can of bear spray.
Aim for the mouth…..ie. largest body mass…
My insight is that you present yourself to the public as the leading expert on the case while at the same time pushing very hard for a specific suspect Sheridan Peterson. It comes across as a conflict of interest. You are very knowledgeable about the case but there is a clear focus on one suspect.
Eric has built his Sheridan narrative based by co-opting, dismissing, ignoring or distorting evidence, extreme speculation, logical fallacies and 100% goal seeking confirmation bias. His narrative is a sophomoric use of logic and reason.
His vids are propaganda riddled with dismissive subjectivity… to shape the less knowledgeable toward his extremely speculative conclusion.
RichG, how does investigating the case and drawing conclusions based upon my investigation lead to a conflict of interest? If this were true then by necessity any conclusion derived from any investigation would lead to a conflict of interest.
Moreover, there have always been two parts to my investigation.
One involves no suspects at all. Rather, it attempts to determine what happened (consider my theories regarding the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge, the placard and the flight path).
The second involves a specific suspect derived from my investigation. That is not at all the same as identifying a suspect first, then through tortured conjecture trying to make the evidence fit the man. Even with that I’m very careful to describe Sheridan Peterson as “likely” DB Cooper in “my mind.”
RichG, if you know something that I don’t know that settles the matter then I’d love to hear it.
Ulis has been fair all along. So what if he has a favorite suspect? Good for him. You really can’t be close to this case without developing a case for your own suspect. But not once had Ulis gone on a search and destroy mission to discredit another’s work, or another suspect. Unlike Robert Blevins who tries to damage all other’s work and accomplishments. That’s why Blevins is the butthead of all Cooper jokes and the most despised person on the case. His campout BS is pure diversion for a totally broken person. Good luck to Mr. Ulis.
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Another fair and balanced report by Ulis, describing the likely motive and operandi, unlike Blevins who sits around and steals and parrots others work and spends all day trolling sites like Bruce’s b/c Blevins is retired and retarded. And no, Sheridan Peterson was no child molester or pediphiliac.
I can read Wikipedia and realize Christenson is not D.B. Cooper either. Johnnie Greene-Ulis has also been accused of taking his information from others too when it comes to naming Peterson. Boat rides and camping trips and a bashing each other. Not what I consider interesting. I’m going to pass and find another case to pay attention to for a while. You all can live in your world. When you start talking about taboo subjects like you have Johnnie Greene, you will lose people who want to become interested in this case.
See ya, Rich. Enjoy another case. Maybe Adventure Books will help you.
I seriously doubt it! AB is a front name for a failed house cleaning business run by toilet scrubbers Robert Blevins and Gayla Petrostravich. When the crapper don’t flush, blame Blevins. Of course, he’s out writing his next huge novel from the back of his tent, up high in the mountains. His last novel was on sale for 31 cents, and the angry book buyer got mad and tried flushing it down the sh*itter. Even Blevins, when called to duty, couldn’t plunge it back to life. See…you can own two related businesses that fail together.
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Eric, didn’t you see the National Geographic show on DB Cooper?
Larry Carr and the esteemed Citizen Team starring Tom Kaye discovered that the money bag floated down the Lewis River to its confluence with the Columbia River, got hooked onto a passing Korean freighter and then was displaced at Tina Bar. Come on, get with it, Ulis.
That’s why Carr and Kaye are signed up to go camping with Blevins. Lol. That puts camp number at 3 total. btw, no need to bring water. Blevins cleans latrines too. Gayla and a shovel come in handy.
I may switch over to Blevin’s outfit if Ulis’ boat operation tanks. Maybe we should just ask Ulis to postpone and let’s all go camping with Blevins this weekend. Blevins bringing the food, portable toilet (toilet paper, hopefully), some great reading (will Blevins be doing any reading from his novels?), and where is that convenience store again? Is Gayla coming along too? Is she still angry with Bruce Smith dropping by while Blevins went camping?
If you want 50% of the truth, you must stop by Adventure Book’s massive publishing headquarters in Auburn, WA only when Robert is off camping. You can deal directly with Gayla, as Bruce knows well. Otherwise, you will get 0% of the truth while Robert is present. hint: go to AB headquarters on Saturday or Sunday.
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Is AB and R&G Cleaners still open for business? I heard they were either in Chapter 7 or Chapter 13. It depends how fast you can read.
Read a Blevins book while they scrub your toilet? Is that a 2 4 1 , or a 3 4 1 deal? What if I want to sit on the toilet and read Blevib’s book, first? Does R&G offer discounts?
Name..
Most rational people would deduce that Cooper using a shortened version of his real name would virtually eliminate him as a suspect,, Would Cooper use a version of his real name.. doesn’t fit his profile, meticulous, serious?? Didn’t want to leave ANY clues behind.. He wouldn’t have used his own abbreviated name.. Dan.
Comic..
The Dan Cooper Cooper comics were published in about 16 languages but not in english. They included French, German, Korean, Arabic, Spanish and a Mexican Spanish version.. since Cooper was described as Latin/Swarthy/Mexican the Mexican/Spanish version would be a more likely source of exposure (if any) rather than the French Canadian theory.
The Dan Cooper comics were not childish, they were extremely technical and even political. Many non-English military aviators read them..
After studying these Comics extensively, it is likely a coincidence or Cooper may have had some exposure to the Mexican Spanish version.
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Thanks, Mr. Ulis. Beautiful scenery and backdrop on the Columbia River. Not bad for a one-man operation, but you need a camera assistant. Maybe Bruce Smith can help with that? See you next week. Keep up the great coverage. Looked better than a CNN spot cast.
Can Blevins skipper a boat? How fast can he row upriver?
He even speaks in tongues.
Hi everyone, I’m the author of “Finding DB Cooper” and I’m doing an AMA on my website:
Nice work, Marty.
L55376548B was the bill on the top one of the of the packets the Ingrams had that Ralph Himmelsbach Id’d as matching the FBI list.
This top bill is NOT blackened, if the FBI did use Silver Nitrate to fingerprint bills they would have fingerprinted this bill, the top one, they didn’t. There was no record of SN being used and this bill would have been the primary target for fingerprinting.
That’s definitely termite damage, Flyjack. Good photo.
100% termite damage. I showed the photo to my neighbor who owns a pest control business. He stated that us EXACTLY what termites do to money when stored. Good job, FLY.
OK. You people have proven over and over your willingness to bury the truth in favour of your agenda. Mr. Smith is obviously a sympathetic persona! You continue to censor this site of all truth which conflicts with your agenda! WHY!? Because you assholes are a bunch of lying bastards – with a criminal mentality – that’s why! AND THE WHOLE COOPER WORLD KNOWS IT!
anyone here? where did everyone go?
Cooper conversations ebb and flow, here and everywhere else. For your Cooper needs you can always go to the DB Cooper Forum if things are slow at the MN. Also, I understand that the DropZone is up and running, but I haven’t been there in years.
Thanks!
What happened to Dropzone? Where did it go?
https://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3110148
I don’t bother with the Dropzone nowadays.
I follow the DB Cooper Forum most days. Between here and there, that’s enough for me.
You arent missing much. The forums are still the same. Tons of lies and personal attacks. Flyjack is over at DZ right now making stuff up and saying Georger did this and did that with Carr. Total fiction. Georger is now the venom magnet and cant open his mouth without being severely attacked by Nicholson and Flyjack. Then Shutter turns around and punishes Georger for it! These Cooper forums have become so bizarre and contrived by people pushing agendas its impossible to resolve anything but they go on and on and on.
Apparently you are boycotting truth again!
Me? How so?
Liars everywhere on Cooper forums. So many liars nobody can keep track. Soon people will boycott all Cooper forums because they know its all lies.
A tad cynical, no?
377 coined the term cooper vortex at DZ. Tell Darren. 377 coined a number of terms including “venom magnet” referring to Blevins.
this is a test by georger –